Not By Works

Where does it say they left their faith?
They obviously had faith as you say.
But nothing to say they lost their faith.

What they did do was

Acts 5:3-10
3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, why have you let Satan fill your heart? You lied to the Holy Spirit, and you kept some of the money for yourself. 4 The property was yours to sell or not sell, as you wished. And after selling it, the money was also yours to give away. How could you do a thing like this? You weren’t lying to us but to God!”
5 As soon as Ananias heard these words, he fell to the floor and died. Everyone who heard about it was terrified. 6 Then some young men got up, wrapped him in a sheet, and took him out and buried him.
7 About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 Peter asked her, “Was this the price you and your husband received for your land?”
“Yes,” she replied, “that was the price.”
9 And Peter said, “How could the two of you even think of conspiring to test the Spirit of the Lord like this? The young men who buried your husband are just outside the door, and they will carry you out, too.”
10 Instantly, she fell to the floor and died. When the young men came in and saw that she was dead, they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.

They lied.
They did not have to, they could have kept what they gained.

Interesting to not v7. About 3 hours later.
Jesus was on the cross for 3 hours, taking all the sins of the world upon him.

Maybe it was a warning to the early church.
Sin is abhorrent to God that results in death, even for a believer.

But as I said, nothing in your quote would suggest they lost their faith.

You ever lied, sinned?
If so does that mean you lost your faith?

The works are works of love and this corresponds to Paul’s statement about the same and puts into context the relationship between faith and works.The persons who, “worketh iniquity” ,lack love and are rejected by the Lord. Those who lack charity also are nothing according to Paul and hence the working of iniquity,the lack of charity and the absence of the appropriate works,according to Jesus,Paul and James will see these persons failing to enter the Kingdom of God.


Hence Paul says:

“And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.”(I Corinthians 13:13)

Jesus puts it this way:


“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”(John 8:31,32)

James is in perfect agreement when he says:

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”(James 2:24)

Is this understanding in contradiction to statements like:

“Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."[Romans 3:28;Galatians 2:16]

Or

“For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.”(Romans 4:2)

When the complete context is considered there is no contradiction. As was said in another study:

“We cannot free ourselves from the curse of the law.Only the death of one who was just could do this great work of reconciliation with God.[Deuteronomy 11:26-29;27: 11-26;28: 15-19;Galatians 3:13; Hebrews 9:15;10:1-10; I Peter 1:18-21;2:24, 25;Romans 3:22,23.]
For neither the blood of bulls and goats(works of the law) nor our good works(works of righteousness) could redeem us from the consequences of sin.[Romans 3:20;Romans 6:23;Ezekiel 20:24,25;Romans 9:31,32; Titus 3:5;Hebrews 10:1-14;Galatians 2:16;3:19,24- 26]”

The persons who benefit from this blessing will be in a position like that of the thief on the cross.

The attitude of one of the thieves was one of unbelief. He said:

“And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.”(Luke 23:39)

The other showed reverence and believed in Christ while confessing he had done wrong.He asked for mercy:

“But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.”(Luke 23:40-42)

Jesus granted him his wish and he was saved as he died and did not have the occasion to fall into sin again:

“And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.”(Luke 23:43)

Hence he was:
“…justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

Not all are in this position for all of their remaining lives and in fact most may be in one similar to the woman caught in adultery.

The woman was found guilty of breaking the command:

"Thou shalt not commit adultery."[Exodus 20:14]
According to the law she was to have been stoned to death.[Leviticus 20:10;John 8:5]

Grace was exercised and Jesus said:

"...Neither do I condemn thee.."[John 8:11]

However at the end of it all, she was told :


"...go and sin no more. " [John 8:11,See Romans 6:1,2]


Hence,even though grace alone freed her from the penalty of sin she was not expected to continue in iniquity as she continued to live. She was to show love/charity by no longer committing adultery.

It is the same now, as we access this grace by faith,we are to practice the "good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."[Ephesians 2:8-10]

If not we are said to be among those who:

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."[ Titus 1:16]

Are such persons still saved?

We should rather be found among these:

"Little children,let no man deceive you:he that doeth righteousness,is righteous even as he is righteous."[ I John 3:7]

safswan

Where does it say they had genuine saving faith? What chapter and verse?

Not happening.........Depart from me ye workers of iniquity <-----those who blend works plus faith to gain or keep salvation......

You don't actually believe that is what Christ meant in Matt 7 do you?
Please take the time and show me how you came to that conclusion.

What can I logically DEDUCE by MATTHEW 7

And saying that faith is a mental activity, and that as long as one believes, even if only for a moment, and saying that a person can be a believer for years without bearing any fruit, and getting upset when someone says faith perserveres because of God's work is easy believism. All of these things were said by either Bubman or Do. Or one other person. I can look up the threads and post numbers if you want

And notice what was the proof that Israel as a whole did not believe/have faith:

"But as to Israel he saith, All the day long did I spread out my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."(Romans 10:21)

In other words Not doing the sayings of Jesus, the will of the FATHER is bad fruit; iniquity.

He talks about prodigal sons who never come home, and says their still sons. I thought prodigal son represented sinners that come to Jesus, like the Publicans and sinners Jesus was talking about, not backsliders.

I don't understand the reasoning why works would be a gift. For one thing the works are for another's benefit aren't they? Not for us. If you think of the gifts of Holy Spirit like healing and deliverance etc. then that too would be for others. If it's a gift at all it's not for the worker. It's the fruit of our faith in the work of God.

I would call it ministering.

Makes no sense.

prodigal sons represent those who were "saved" but made the choice to walk away from the father. have you ever wondered why the father never went to the far country to bring his son back home? because sin is a choice and serving God is a choice we must all make. God will not force any of us to Love him.
Luke 15:24 (KJV)
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Luke 15:32 (KJV)
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Is a dead son and a lost son any better off than no son at all?

? I didn't say they were. I said results of our works are for others. So why call them gifts?

lets just think about this for a minute:
Ananias and sapphira allow satan to fill their hearts and lie to God (Acts 5:4) and they fell dead!

notice what Revelation 21 says about "all liars"

Revelation 21:8 (KJV)
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

according to you God would have to tell a lie and say to Ananias and Sapphira "welcome in thou good and faithful servant" (matt 25:23) BUT WE ALL KNOW THAT GOD WONT LIE

dont be deceived like Adam and Eve was in the garden when satan said "you wont die" go ahead and disobey God

Ananias and his wife went to HELL the day they died and they are still there today:

Ezekiel 18:24 (KJV)
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

how foolish to believe a man isnt fit to live on earth but fit to live in heaven

let me ask you a simple question: "does the devil ever accuse you, or does the devil fight with you over anything such as a weakness etc...???????

Well my original argument was that the works that God gave us to do are part of the endowment God gave us when He saved us. But some people are so terrified of works salvation, that they separate the positional aspects of salvation, (God does this, they say) and the practical fruit of salvation (we do that,they say), but I say it is all of grace

I'm bowing out too. If they want to think that works are added to grace BY US instead of flowing out of grace from God's throne, , it is obvious I won't change anyone's mind, even though Ephesians 4:8 says Christ gives gifts unto men, and it isn't talking about any of the gifts that DC listed as the only gifts in the Bible

And yes, gifts are meant to be used. So a gift of a ministry is a gift of a work to do for the Master's glory

Ezekiel 13:22 (KJV)
22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:

He talks about prodigal sons who never come home, and says their still sons. I thought prodigal son represented sinners that come to Jesus, like the Publicans and sinners Jesus was talking about, not backsliders.

My response to you(post #84118)addresses most if not all of your comments here.Read that post carefully and answer the questions and truth will become evident.Also you should only compare passages of scripture when you properly understand them.As I said in the post referenced,context determines how we understand the contents.

Good day mailmandan,

You wrote:

“It's not a theory. James 2:14 plainly reads - "says" he has faith (NKJV, ESV, NASB). Other translations say "claims" (AMP, CSB, NIV)."

The way to understand the passage is not to run from translation to translation. Use elements in the passage to figure out what is the proper understanding of the same. The use of Abraham as the example proves this is not a “mere” claim of having faith. It refers to real faith. You find this hard to accept as it would negatively affect your theory. Also one would of necessity have to “say” they have faith unless you know of some other way this can be initially expressed.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? KJV

What is the profit, my brethren, if faith, any one may speak of having, and works he may not have? is that faith able to save him? YLT

What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him? RV

What good does it do, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith but does not have any works? This kind of faith cannot save him, can it? ISV

My friends, what good is it for one of you to say that you have faith if your actions do not prove it? Can that faith save you? GNB

What auaileth it, my brethren, though a man saith he hath faith, when he hath no workes? can that faith saue him? GENEVA

What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him? ASV

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."(Titus 1:16)

You also wrote:

“"Says-claims" to have faith is not the same thing as saying actually does have authentic faith like Abraham. So you disregard "says-claims" to have faith in James 2:14 and instead, modify it to mean "actually does have faith" but produces no works? It sounds to me like you teach salvation by works.”

The real reason belief is not beneficial as was stated by James and in this case,is not because it “"falls short of authentic belief resulting in salvation,"” but because they failed to act/do in the manner commensurate with such belief/faith.

“But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?” (James 2:20)

“Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.”

But scripture confirms the evil angels’ belief in God and what He is able to do. They should know even more than us as well.

“..the devils also believe, and tremble.”(James 2:19)

not sure who DCON is...... but i believe if a man who is saved turns from his faith and dies he goes to the same hell the unrepented homosexual or drunk goes to

Saved person dying in sin because He had temporary faith. Even though the scripture says " He who says he knows God, and does not keep His commandments is a liar

Who do I believe? Apostle John or DCON? Umm...I think the answer is obvious.

Only that in which Jesus said.

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. THEREFORE whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, AND DOETH THEM, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
(Mat 7:15-24 KJV)

In summary....
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Depart from me, ye that work iniquity. THEREFORE (for that reason; consequently ) whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, AND DOETH THEM, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

In other words Not doing the sayings of Jesus, the will of the FATHER is bad fruit; iniquity.