IF there was a Rapture at the start off a 7 year tribulation period, then

Rev 19
Mat 25
The dialog at the last supperb
The parable of the wedding guests
All point to a feast in heaven.
Specifically in heaven

There are variations to the one I posted but as far as I'm concerned none of them are biblical. People are either in Christ and part of his body or not. They are either part of his Bride or not. If they are not they are not saved. In the Bridesmaid parable the foolish ones are apostates we know this because all ten were supposed to be Bridesmaids but only five had oil. Oil represents the Holy Spirit without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit one cannot be part of Christs Church which is his body and Bride.

No person knows the day or hour that the resurrection shall happen, but there is mention of the time frame that it will occur.

Paul said that it will be near the time that the nations come toget
The truth is that the resurrection of the saints shall not occur until God is ready to put the world down.

As long as mankind has ruling governments, and authority over people, the resurrection shall not occur.

That is why Paul said the gathering unto Christ shall not happen until there is a falling away first, which is the response of the world towards the Gospel, which they will stop it being preached world wide when the nations come together, and the man of sin claims to be God to the world.

But then the beast has power to rule for three and one half years, and makes war against the saints, and prevails against them, and God warns the saints to not fight back for then they are acting like the world.

And the saints are given in to the little horn, the beast's hands for three and one half years.

And when he shall accomplish to scatter the power of the holy people then all things shall be finished.

For then it is the time for the saints that remain on earth to be resurrected, for God is now going to go against the world and put them down.

During the 7 years period there is ruling governments, although it is narrowed down to ten, the ten horns, the world split in to ten sections with a leader in each section, and the beast kingdom is after that which rules, which the ten horns hand their power over to the beast, and that is how he gets control of the world.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The saints are resurrected around the time Jesus puts down the authority of the world, which the 7 years period the world's authority is going on.

The resurrection will happen, and then Jesus will put down the authority of the world right away, which as soon as the resurrection happens the authority is already in progress to be put down.

Also the 7 years is not the tribulation period, but the last three and one half years, for the only thing the world does during the first three and one half years is stop the preaching of anything taught contrary to the new age movement who interpret all religions, including the Bible, according to the occult, and evolution, and people can still evolve provided by the New Age Christ to come.

Which is Islam, Judaism, who believe in a personal God, and Christianity, who believe in a personal God, and Jesus is Lord and Savior, and any other religion, or person that teaches contrary to the new age movement.

Islam and the world will clash during the first three and one half years, and then the world and Christianity will clash during the last three and one half years.

Also repentance, and salvation, are available to the world during the first three and one half years, so the saints will remain on earth.

Israel is still blinded in part during the first three and one half years.

And the world makes war against the saints during the last three and one half years.

And for people that say that it is the Jews that the beast goes against, the 2 witnesses started preaching at the beginning of the last three and one half years, so they have not turned to Jesus as a nation yet, so it is saints both Jew, the ones that accept the truth, and Gentile saints that are persecuted.

And for people that say the resurrection is before the 7 years period, and say they are tribulation saints that can be saved during the 7 years period it is not true.

For once the resurrection happens no one can be saved that is a Gentile, for Jesus said once He closes the door then no one can enter, and they will have their portion with the hypocrites.

For when the resurrection happens then the people that did not make it were either a hypocrite claiming Christ, or rejected the truth, so they cannot be saved once it happens.

Also there is only 2 resurrections, one of the saints, and one of the world after the millennial reign of Christ.

Also Paul said the saints will not be deceived when the nations come together and say Peace and safety, which is when the 7 years period starts, and Jesus will deliver those in the truth from that temptation that shall come upon the whole world to try them that dwell on earth.

And that temptation is the world saying they have the answer, and the truth, and reality, and that they can have peace on earth, and religion is about evolution, and people can still evolve, that will lead them to the New Age Christ.

But the saints will not be deceived by that for they know it is not of God, but the answer is Jesus Christ, and a personal God.

So the saints are on earth when the 7 years period starts.

There is only 2 resurrections at the end, only two talked about after Christs resurrection.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Act_24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
(Second death = must rise from the dead before you can die a second time.)

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The resurrection of the righteous saints and the resurrection of the lost.
Separated by the thousand years.

The coming of Jesus is when the first resurrection happens and both the living and the dead go to be with Jesus forever.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


The teaching that people will disappear mysteriously and be taken to heaven secretly is not Biblical.

It does not say that the one on the horse was Jesus.. It says rider was ""like unto the Son of man"" If it was the Son of man the scriptures would say it was.. Don't you know the Anti-christ will fool people into believing He is the promised one.. Why do you think people are going to worship Him as God in the temple? Think man..

Where does it say the 144,000 are going to be in heaven? It says no such thing.. It says they will be protected on Mount Sion .. Mount Sion is in Israel.. On earth not in heaven..

Revelation 14. KJV
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb
They are in heaven by rev 14.
Firstfruits is part of harvest.
2 harvests follow. Also in rev 14.
One by Jesus
One by an angel.
3 total in rev 14.
144k
Ripe fruit
Over ripe (rotten) fruit

Whether mat 25 is secret or not does not change that it WILL happen.

Re read 1 thes.
The dead in christ ONLY rise. ONLY the dead in Christ.
Rev 14's harvest,denies a post trib rapture.
(You can not have a harvest [rapture] before the dead rise.)
Either b4 or right at the start of the gt we will see 1 thes 4.
No other position fits.
Rev 14 contains the impossibility.
I can easily defend the pretrib rapture w/o rev 14.
But rev 14 is a thread killer.

The secret Rapture teaching is just one major part of the Darby/Scofield version of dispensationalism all of it is false
and is a prime example of what happens when one imposes interpretations on scripture instead of comparing
the Bible line by line and precept by precept. Both Jesus and Paul had much to say about the resurrection but nothing
about a two stage second coming. The idea of a secret rapture stems from the core belief the system has that there is
a separate plan of salvation for Jews and Gentiles involving David sitting on a throne on earth ruling Israel and Christ on a
throne in Heaven. The Bible teaches that there is one throne and Christ has occupied it since his resurrection
He is Lord of both Heaven and Earth

Maybe do a little checking first.
That outline is so off.
Nobody believes David returns.

As far as the throne of God goes;
Rev 5
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne

So most everything you posted is off

Hello,

It is paramount to understand that there the Lord's appearing to gather His church (which no man knows the day or the hour) is a separate event from the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. That said, no one knows the day or the hour when the Lord will appear in the air and gather His church.

Regarding the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, it is true that there will be seven years which will begin when that ruler, the antichrist, establishes his seven year covenant with many/Israel. The end cannot come until the wrath of God has been completed via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Therefore, the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, is marked by many signs. However, even then, no man will still not know the day or the hour.

Therefore, your error is, like so many others, is not discerning that these are two separate events and with different purposes and taking place at different times.

The Lord's appearing to gather His church:

Of this event, no one knows the day or hour in which the Lord will appear to gather His church.

In this event, the Lord does not return to the earth, but descends to the atmosphere (air) and with a voice that sounds like a trumpet, will first call up the dead, resurrecting them. After that, those who are still alive in Christ will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air, where in fulfillment of John 14:1-3, will take the entire church back to the Father's house (heaven) to those places that He went to prepare for believers.

Since the Lord took upon Himself the wrath that all believers deserve satisfying it completely, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer and we therefore cannot and will not be here on the earth to go through God's wrath. Any wrath! (Rom.5:9, I Thess.1:10, 5:9, Rev.3:10)

The Lord's return to the earth to end the age (Second Coming)

The event of the Lord's return to the earth, is preempted by the fulfillment of the that last seven years, during which the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments must take place and in that order. The Lord will return to the earth sometime only after the seventh bowl has been poured out and the church will return with Him.

If you will look at Rev.19:6-8, you will see that the church, referred to as the bride, will be at the wedding of the Lamb receiving her fine linen, white and pure. Then in Rev.19:14, we see the armies of heaven, which is the bride/church, wearing that same fine line, white and pure that she will have previously been given, following the Lord out of heaven and riding on white horses. Suffice to say, you can't follow the Lord out of heaven, unless you are already in heaven.

Conclusion: The Lord's appearing to gather His church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, are two separate events.

Tanakh, it can't be a recent teaching if it is taught in scripture. It has nothing to do with Darby, Scofield or Mary MacDonald. These people are all just used as apologetics to discredit the truth.

you and others should be ashamed for no recognizing that Jesus experienced God's wrath on every believers behalf. And if you say that you do, then you are lying, because God's wrath has already been satisfied by the Lord. And if you say that God is going to protect His church during his wrath, have not understood the severity and magnitude of God's coming, unprecedented wrath.

As believers, we should all be looking for the blessed hope, the appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. However, your view has him coming for believers after His wrath has been poured out, which would be no blessed hope at all, nor could we comfort one another with those words, as Paul urged us to.

What a sad thing it is to believe that the Lord is going to punish the righteous with the wicked, which is what you and others do.

How about instead of another lame apologetic, believe in the truth.

By the way, you have the above wrong. Christ is going to rule from Jerusalem during the millennial kingdom from the throne of king David, not David himself.

"Behold, you will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to give Him the name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David, and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever. His kingdom will never end!”

The above hasn't happened yet.

Just goes to show that people would rather accept and promote propaganda than get down to some serious Bible study. Those who engage in these ad hominem attacks do not really have any Scripture to refute the Pretribulation Resurrection/Rapture.
1. Jesus and Paul considered the Resurrection/Rapture as ONE EVENT. Every passage combines the two are being one seamless event. Please review the actual Scriptures if you don't believe this.

2. There is no "two stage second coming", since the coming of Christ for the Church is *IN THE AIR* with an immediate return to Heaven in a fraction of a second. Only those who are in Christ will see Him, so it will indeed be *secret* as far as the rest of the world is concerned. Why should that be an issue for any Christian?

On the other hand the Second Coming of Christ is WITH His *clouds* of saints and angels (from Heaven to earth) to deal with His enemies and the ungodly, and to establish His literal, visible Kingdom on earth. And all the inhabitants of the earth will literally see the descent of Christ, and weep, wail, and mourn because they know that He is coming to judge them.

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7)

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14,15)

To Nehemiah and Atwatuke

The Pre Tribulation rapture is a two stage second coming. According to the teaching Christ arrives above the earth and secretly
takes believers to heaven and then returns with them all SEVEN YEARS LATER. According to Paul those he brings with him at the second coming are those who are asleep. That is those in Christ who have died not those he secretly raptured seven years before see 1 Thess 4:14

In a number of places the resurrection is said to occur on the last day. When do you expect the last day to occur at any time or at the end of seven years tribulation?

According to Jude and Enoch the Lord comes to execute judgement ON ALL not just the wicked among them. For centuries the church has taught that there will be one judgement day for everyone at the second coming. The parable of the sheep and goats is about this, also the parable of the wheat and the tares.

The wrath of God that seems to be an obsession for some is far worse than a seven year tribulation it lasts forever in Hell
According to the belief about the tribulation wrath God is unable to protect Christians from it down here on
Earth even though he protected the Hebrews during the ten plagues of Egypt some of which are the basis of the very same
plagues that are featured in Revelation. He also manages to protect a large number of Jews down here from the same tribulation wrath that everyone else is going through until they finally believe in Christ ''when they look upon him who they pierced'' which happens when he arrives at the Mount of Olives at his second coming.

It is a pity that you ignore scriptural context. After Paul explains the rapture to the Thessalonians he goes on to say this....

But concerning the times and seasons brethren you have no need that should write to you
For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night
For when they say peace and safety then sudden destruction comes upon them as labour
pains upon a pregnant woman. and they shall not escape

Thess 5:1-3

So what happens to the secret rapture that no one else sees?
We are told the resurrection is at the last day John 11:24. If the
resurrection and rapture happened before the start of the seven
year tribulation it would make this verse and others like it false.

Would you consider seven years of tribulation being 'sudden'
If your home collapsed would it be sudden or would it take
a number of years to happen?

The resurrection rapture and the second coming happen at the same time
Those in Christ meet the Lord in the air and escort him down
to the Mount of Olives.

Christ is not only king of Israel now he is king and Lord of the whole universe
He is on a throne in Heaven and has been since his ascension. Also his kingdom
has been established on earth since his first coming. His parables about mustard seeds
and sowers explains the kingdom as starting small but growing to fill the earth. That's what
has been happening for the past 2000 years and continues. Daniels vision of a stone hitting the
statue and becoming a great Mountain is of Christs kingdom supplanting all earthly kingdoms.
The church is an extension of the true Israel . The disciples fulfilled the role that Israel as a nation
was supposed to have done from its beginning. That is to bring humanity back to God Christians are fulfilling Gods promise to Abraham that he would be the father of many nations. All believers in Christ are part of Israel regardless ethnic origin or gender. Paul makes that clear a number of times.

Christ is the second Adam. The whole plan of God is to create a new heaven and earth so that
humanity will have dominion over it under Gods rule forever not just for a thousand years. That
was and is his original purpose

Good morning Ahwatukee,
It's not the Lord who gathers His church, the Lord sends His angels to gather His elect.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Re read that. It says " from heaven"

That is a gathering in heaven after the trib.
That post trib gathering is seen in rev 19
The church is in heaven during the gt.
The last harvest of the earth(rapture) is rev 14. The messianic Jews probably saved during the gt.

In the main gathering Jesus gathers his bride.
That is 1 thes 4 and mat 25

How is the gathering from uttermost part of the earth in Mark 13:27 heaven?

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

If you read Revelation 14 carefully, the first reaping is of the righteous by the Lord (Rev 14:14-16), while the later second reaping is of the faithless by an angel who casts them into the great winepress of the wrath of God (Rev 14:18-20).
This is where it ends and then starts up again in retrospect in Revelation 15 with Gods wrath on the faithless seen in Revelation 16.

Revelation 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.


17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

What about the patience of the saints who endure being killed during the reign of the beast in Revelation 13:10 & Revelation 14:12, which the Lord allows to occur and is described as the Son of man reaping His blessed in Revelation 14:13-14?
How are these in heaven?

Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.