IF there was a Rapture at the start off a 7 year tribulation period, then

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TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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They which pierced Him are long dead, how could they see Him descend with the clouds?
Keep in mind Scripture's use of the "proleptic 'you/us/they'," where a representative or representatives stand for the whole ("all those in the future, of the same category"). In that light...

...here is what Gaebelein says (and Gill, quoted below that, agrees),

[quoting]

"[The Book of] John alone mentions this blessed fact. ['pierced'] “It is a beautiful testimony of divine grace, answering the last insult man could heap upon Him. They drove Him outside the camp, put Him to death on the Cross, and then, to make His death doubly sure, the soldier pierced His side. Salvation was God’s answer to man’s insult, for the blood and water were the signs of it.” John speaks of this never to be forgotten occurrence, in his first Epistle (5:6). There he mentions water first. It denotes purifying which man needs, and that has come with all its attending blessings by His precious blood. But notice John writes: “And again another scripture saith, They shall look on Him whom they pierced.” He does not say, another Scripture was fulfilled. Zechariah 12:10 was not fulfilled when He died, but will be fulfilled when He comes again and the believing remnant of Israel mourns for Him." --Gaebelein, Commentary on John


[and quoting Gill's Commentary on John]

"they shall look on him whom they pierced; in the Hebrew text it is, "upon me whom they have pierced"; the reason of this difference is, because Christ, who is Jehovah, is there speaking prophetically of himself, here the evangelist cites it as fulfilled in him, that is, that part of it which regards the piercing of him; for that of the Jews looking upon him and mourning is yet to be fulfilled, and will be at the time of their conversion in the latter day, and at the day of judgment. And as the piercing of the Messiah has been literally fulfilled in Jesus, there is reason to believe, though the Jews are to this day hardened against him, that that part of the prophecy which concerns their looking to him, and mourning for him on account of his being pierced by them, will also, in God's own time, be fulfilled. Nor is it any objection to the application of this prophecy to our Lord Jesus, that not the Jews, but the Roman soldiers pierced him, since what one does by another, he may be said to do himself: though it was a Roman soldier that pierced the side of Christ, the Jews might desire and urge him to do it; and however, they agreed to it, and were well pleased with it; and just so Christ is said to be crucified and slain by them; though this was done by the above soldiers, because they prevailed upon Pilate to pass the sentence of death upon him, and to deliver him to the soldiers to be crucified." --Gill, Commentary on John

[end quoting; brackets, bold and underline mine; source: Bible Hub]
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^ and Bengel writes:

"The piercing took place on the cross: the seeing or looking on Him, accompanied either with penitential grief or with terror, shall come to pass in other times. Therefore John quotes this passage for the sake of its allusion to the piercing [not for that to the looking]."

[end quoting; brackets original; source: Bible Hub]
 

Noose

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Apr 18, 2016
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I'm not following you.
...and every eye shall see him, even those that pierced Him...

It literally means everyone will see him and no one represents others in seeing. Which group do you think represents another?

^ and Bengel writes:

"The piercing took place on the cross: the seeing or looking on Him, accompanied either with penitential grief or with terror, shall come to pass in other times. Therefore John quotes this passage for the sake of its allusion to the piercing [not for that to the looking]."

[end quoting; brackets original; source: Bible Hub]
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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They which pierced Him are long dead, how could they see Him descend with the clouds?
That is a term for Jews and Israel as a whole. Christ will gather all the Jews from around Israel after His second coming and they will see their true Messiah, weep and mourn because of their unbelief, and for the judgment to come. At least one-third will repent be saved.

And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God. (Zech 13:9)
 

crossnote

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IF there were a Rapture at the START of a 7-year tribulation period, then we would be able to calculate the exact date of Jesus's return and appearance in glory to earth, wouldn't we, i.e., 7 years after the date of the Rapture.

But the Bible says that no man knows the hour and even Jesus said that on THAT MATTER ONLY the Father knows the hour and day of Jesus's return.

Mark 13:32-33
But of that day and that hour knows no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.Take you heed, watch and pray: FOR YOU KNOW NOT WHEN THE TIME IS.

Therefore there can be NO Rapture at the start of a 7-year tribulation period because we would know how to calculate the day of His return 7 years later.

YehovaYeshua
I take it you are saying the rapture could happen anytime
IF there were a Rapture at the START of a 7-year tribulation period, then we would be able to calculate the exact date of Jesus's return and appearance in glory to earth, wouldn't we, i.e., 7 years after the date of the Rapture.

But the Bible says that no man knows the hour and even Jesus said that on THAT MATTER ONLY the Father knows the hour and day of Jesus's return.

Mark 13:32-33
But of that day and that hour knows no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.Take you heed, watch and pray: FOR YOU KNOW NOT WHEN THE TIME IS.

Therefore there can be NO Rapture at the start of a 7-year tribulation period because we would know how to calculate the day of His return 7 years later.

YehovaYeshua
I take it then you are saying the rapture can happen anytime before the GT but not right at the start of the GT?
Actually it is not the rapture that kicks off the GT it is Israel signing a Covenant of death with the AntiChrist.

(Sorry, I haven't read 20+ pages leading up to this)
 

Noose

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Apr 18, 2016
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That is a term for Jews and Israel as a whole. Christ will gather all the Jews from around Israel after His second coming and they will see their true Messiah, weep and mourn because of their unbelief, and for the judgment to come. At least one-third will repent be saved.

And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God. (Zech 13:9)
Nope. 'Every eye' means every eye and not every Jewish eye.
And who is a Jew? read Rom 2:28
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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Ok,just remove rev 14,like you did above,and you'll be just fine.
Wink wink
I did not even bother dealing with rev 14 because it never deals with a rapture at all.. I did not remove anything.. I simply chose not to waste my time dealing with a passage that has no relevance to the topic of rapture..
 
Jul 23, 2018
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I did not even bother dealing with rev 14 because it never deals with a rapture at all.. I did not remove anything.. I simply chose not to waste my time dealing with a passage that has no relevance to the topic of rapture..
Lets see,Jesus on a cloud reaping thousands/millions of humans to heaven.

Yep,no catching up there.
Facepalm
 

Ahwatukee

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Mar 12, 2015
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Lets see,Jesus on a cloud reaping thousands/millions of humans to heaven.

Yep,no catching up there.
Facepalm
Good day Absolutely!

In all fairness, the scripture there only says that the one sitting on the cloud swung his sickle and the earth was harvested. It doesn't say anything about whether it is a good or bad harvest, nor of humans being caught up to heaven.

"So the One seated on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested."

Likewise, the second harvest of the clusters of grapes has nothing to do with anyone being caught up to heaven, but instead refers to those clusters of grapes (inhabitants of the earth) as being thrown into the great winepress of God's wrath, which would be referring to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, where they are all killed by that double-edged sword with the birds gorging themselves on their flesh. (Rev.19:15, 17, 21)
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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Therefore there can be NO Rapture at the start of a 7-year tribulation period because we would know how to calculate the day of His return 7 years later.
Not necessarily. No one knows the time which will elapse between the Rapture and the beginning of Daniel's 70th week. No one knows the time of the Rapture either.
 

Adstar

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Jul 24, 2016
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Lets see,Jesus on a cloud reaping thousands/millions of humans to heaven.

Yep,no catching up there.
Facepalm
You Facepalm as if i am a moron?? You are arrogant and denegrating towards me as if i am a dunce?? Lets read the scripture in Context shall we..

Revelation 14: KJV

14 "And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. {15} And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. {16} And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. {17} And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. {18} And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. {19} And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. {20} And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."

You call this the Rapure?? Being reaped by the one with the sickle and being cast into the winepress of THE WRATH OF GOD!!!!! Are you INSANE?? Talk about Facepalm.. You want to take part in this reaping do you.. You want your blood to oose out of the winepress of the wrath of God unto the height of horses Bridles..

Wow thats a fun ""rapture"" to take part in.. Not one mention of Heaven in the whole passage.. Only the Wrath of God and being crushed in the winepress of God...

The total lack of Biblical wisdom in you is astounding coupled with you gobsmacking toxic arrogance towards others.. what a combination..
 

TMS

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Mar 21, 2015
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Australia
Matt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
..........
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

No mention of secret rapture in these verses.
No mention anywhere in the bible.

2 Pet 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
.......
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

1 Thes 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Good day Absolutely!

In all fairness, the scripture there only says that the one sitting on the cloud swung his sickle and the earth was harvested. It doesn't say anything about whether it is a good or bad harvest, nor of humans being caught up to heaven.

"So the One seated on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested."

Likewise, the second harvest of the clusters of grapes has nothing to do with anyone being caught up to heaven, but instead refers to those clusters of grapes (inhabitants of the earth) as being thrown into the great winepress of God's wrath, which would be referring to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, where they are all killed by that double-edged sword with the birds gorging themselves on their flesh. (Rev.19:15, 17, 21)
Context.
The 144 k are jews.
Firstfruit jews
That goes without saying that firstfruits would be harvested first,hence the obvious first fruits designation.
They are in heaven FIRST at the begining of rev 14.
Then immediately angels begin to preach the gospel on the earth.
Then ripe fruit are reaped by Jesus.
Afterwards an angel reaps " bad" over ripe fruit from earth to the winepress of wrath.

No brainer that those taken by Jesus are a good harvest to heaven. No brainer.
I don't see any point in dismissing something so obvious.
It is not one event.
There are 4 major events in rev 14
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
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Matt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
..........
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

No mention of secret rapture in these verses.
No mention anywhere in the bible.

2 Pet 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
.......
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

1 Thes 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord
What is the secret rapture you refer to?
Are you a postrib rapture adherent?
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
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You Facepalm as if i am a moron?? You are arrogant and denegrating towards me as if i am a dunce?? Lets read the scripture in Context shall we..

Revelation 14: KJV

14 "And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. {15} And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. {16} And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. {17} And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. {18} And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. {19} And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. {20} And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."

You call this the Rapure?? Being reaped by the one with the sickle and being cast into the winepress of THE WRATH OF GOD!!!!! Are you INSANE?? Talk about Facepalm.. You want to take part in this reaping do you.. You want your blood to oose out of the winepress of the wrath of God unto the height of horses Bridles..

Wow thats a fun ""rapture"" to take part in.. Not one mention of Heaven in the whole passage.. Only the Wrath of God and being crushed in the winepress of God...

The total lack of Biblical wisdom in you is astounding coupled with you gobsmacking toxic arrogance towards others.. what a combination..
4 major events there.
You run it all together for some reason.
Read it again.
The 144k are in heaven as rev 14 unfolds.
I suppose you could,with enough imagination,have Jesus with a sickle just randomly whacking down some plants or something.

You dont read very carefully.
The one on a cloud is Jesus.
HE DOES NOT REAP ANYONE to the winepress.
Before you start firing blanks,read what is says. Not what you make it say.
IT SAYS , "...then another angel reaps. A second BAD group to the winepress."

Calm down,regroup,and re-read.
Try and post calmly. It is only a discussion.
But yes rev 14 is a no brainer rapture.
No brainer.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
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Good day Absolutely!

In all fairness, the scripture there only says that the one sitting on the cloud swung his sickle and the earth was harvested. It doesn't say anything about whether it is a good or bad harvest, nor of humans being caught up to heaven.

"So the One seated on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested."

Likewise, the second harvest of the clusters of grapes has nothing to do with anyone being caught up to heaven, but instead refers to those clusters of grapes (inhabitants of the earth) as being thrown into the great winepress of God's wrath, which would be referring to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, where they are all killed by that double-edged sword with the birds gorging themselves on their flesh. (Rev.19:15, 17, 21)
Btw,rev 14 is during the gt.
A harvest to heaven during the gt.
It is a harvest to heaven,by Jesus
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
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IF there were a Rapture at the START of a 7-year tribulation period, then we would be able to calculate the exact date of Jesus's return and appearance in glory to earth, wouldn't we, i.e., 7 years after the date of the Rapture.

But the Bible says that no man knows the hour and even Jesus said that on THAT MATTER ONLY the Father knows the hour and day of Jesus's return.

Mark 13:32-33
But of that day and that hour knows no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.Take you heed, watch and pray: FOR YOU KNOW NOT WHEN THE TIME IS.

Therefore there can be NO Rapture at the start of a 7-year tribulation period because we would know how to calculate the day of His return 7 years later.

YehovaYeshua

According to those who believe in a Pre Tribulation Rapture all believers are going to be taken away before the Tribulation starts
so for them having to work out when Christ is returning is a waste of time for them because they are supposed to be coming back with
him having had a seven year supper in some undisclosed location that most assume is Heaven but could be anywhere above the Earths
atmosphere.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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^ (as a pre-tribber myself :) ) I do not believe that our Rapture takes us to "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" which I believe is the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom which will commence upon His "RETURN" to the earth (yes, I believe we return WITH Him--but not that "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" is located in Heaven, nor is it the purpose of our Rapture). The wedding feast/supper is the earthly MK (at least its inauguration) and completely earthly-located (involving the "guests [plural]," and the "[10, or rather 5] virgins/bridesmaids [plural]," and the "servants [of that specific future time period; plural]"... none of whom ever lift off the earth; all of whom are distinct from "the Bride/Wife [singular]" [pertaining to "the MARRIAGE" itself, which "aorist" / already-taken-place in Heaven, at the time of His Rev19 return to the earth]).

Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal [etc]