IF there was a Rapture at the start off a 7 year tribulation period, then

[Hevosmies]

I believe I *have* supplied scriptural support in past posts (perhaps even in this thread, not sure).

Revelation 1:1 states, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [Jesus] TO SHEW UNTO His servants [see Rev7:3 the 144000 "servants of our God"] things which must come to pass [<--compare 4:1's phrasing, re: the FUTURE aspects of the Book] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]…" NOT things which will transpire over the course of some 2000 years (i.e. not "FROM the first century"), but "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"

Hey bro I got a question.
What do you mean when you say: "Compare 4:1 pharsing IN QUICKNESS" and not the things which transpire over the course of time?

I've always been interested in what it means "QUICKLY" "i come soon" "at the door" "Close" "without delay" "i come quickly" etc. When its already been two millennium! How long of a time is quickly on God's timetable? Any biblical indications other than the psalm where thousand is as one and one as a thousand.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Hey bro I got a question.
What do you mean when you say: "Compare 4:1 pharsing IN QUICKNESS" and not the things which transpire over the course of time?

I've always been interested in what it means "QUICKLY" "i come soon" "at the door" "Close" "without delay" "i come quickly" etc. When its already been two millennium! How long of a time is quickly on God's timetable? Any biblical indications other than the psalm where thousand is as one and one as a thousand.

If you are referring to Rev1:1 [22:6] which I am, it says, "IN QUICKNESS" which is a NOUN (not "quickly" which is an adverb used elsewhere). So in these two verses (plus the two I showed as parallel, Lk18:8 and Rom16:20), the word "IN QUICKNESS" means in a relatively short amount of time (it is not telling/describing, in that section, things which must transpire over the course of some 2000 years, but is describing the things which will take place over the period of the 7-yrs/'ONE WEEK' time period which leads UP TO His Second Coming to the earth in Rev19; it STARTS with SEAL #1 when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" and ends upon His "return" to the earth in Rev19, and the earthly MK follows on from there).

Additionally, I believe Rev16:15-16 "Behold, I come AS A THIEF [period]." pertains to His Second Coming to the earth (not our Rapture-timing). Does that help?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ [edit to add]

--where the phrase "will [so] comes as a thief IN THE NIGHT" is used (with the "IN THE NIGHT" part added) it refers solely to the TIME PERIOD which will unfold upon the earth (the "DARK/DARKNESS" portion I mentioned in my earlier post)

--where the phrase "Behold, I come AS A THIEF." [period], it refers to His Person, HIMSELF coming to the earth, at the time of His "RETURN" to the earth (Rev19; Rev19:19-20/16:14-16/20:6 parallels Isa24:21-22[23]'s TWO "PUNISH" words SEPARATED by "and AFTER MANY DAYS" [that is, involving the earthly MK time period, following His "return" to the earth])

 

[Nehemiah6]

We need to calculate marriage supper of the Lamb somewhere though

And that's why your theory has no merit.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Along with that, here's a quote by Gaebelein, also on Isa60:

[quoting]

"Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.
CHAPTER 60
The Glory Chapter: The Morning of a New Age and Its Blessing
1. The light and glory has come (Isaiah 60:1) 2. The darkness before the morning (Isaiah 60:2) 3. The conversion of the Gentiles (Isaiah 60:3) 4. The dispersed brought home (Isaiah 60:4) 5. The conversion of the world (Isaiah 60:5-9) 6. Jerusalem restored and glorified (Isaiah 60:10-16) 7. The theocratic kingdom established: Its material and spiritual glories (Isaiah 60:17-22) A small volume might be written on this glory chapter. The reader will note how all stands connected with chapters 58-59. First the call to repentance, then the uncovering of Jacob’s transgression, their confession, the answer of Jehovah by His personal manifestation. He deals with His adversaries and appears as Redeemer in Zion. Then the glory light breaks forth. It is the dawn of the morning. That morning was preceded by gross darkness--universal apostasy and corruption. After the glory has broken forth the kingdom age begins. The conversion of the Gentiles will take place and Jerusalem will be indeed the city of a great King. Then at last all the people will be righteous. How strange that Christendom should ignore these majestic predictions and their divine order."
--Gaebelein, Commentary on Isaiah 60 (source: Bible Hub)

[end quoting]


Keep in mind what I've put in past posts about the distinction between "the Marriage" itself (Rev19:7 involving the "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" and AORIST, in Heaven] to that of Revelation 19:9's "wedding FEAST/SUPPER" (the earthly MK; involving the "invited GUESTS [PLURAL]," etc)

louis, I had forgotten to add the parallel verse I had wanted to point out (to this point):

Hosea 11:11 "They shall tremble as a bird out of Egypt, and as a dove out of the land of Assyria: and I will place them in their houses, saith the LORD."

https://biblehub.com/hosea/11-11.htm

 

[Absolutely]

If you read Revelation 14 carefully, the first reaping is of the righteous by the Lord (Rev 14:14-16), while the later second reaping is of the faithless by an angel who casts them into the great winepress of the wrath of God (Rev 14:18-20).
This is where it ends and then starts up again in retrospect in Revelation 15 with Gods wrath on the faithless seen in Revelation 16.

Revelation 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.


17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

3 harvests in rev 14.
Firstfruits 144k
Ripe fruit by Jesus on a cloud
Over ripe fruit by an angel

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Hey bro I got a question.
What do you mean when you say: "Compare 4:1 pharsing IN QUICKNESS" and not the things which transpire over the course of time?

Sorry, where I've said (about 1:1) "compare 4:1 phrasing" I am referring to the "things which MUST COME TO PASS" part (which refers to the FUTURE ASPECTS of the book, just as 1:1 is [especially as it speaks to the "IN QUICKNESS " aspect, which is FUTURE, that future specific limited time period, i.e. the 7-yr trib/'ONE WEEK']). Does that make sense? If not, I can re-format what I'm pointing out.

 

[Hevosmies]

Does that make sense? If not, I can re-format what I'm pointing out.

Thanks! I understood what you're saying

 

[Absolutely]

What about the patience of the saints who endure being killed during the reign of the beast in Revelation 13:10 & Revelation 14:12, which the Lord allows to occur and is described as the Son of man reaping His blessed in Revelation 14:13-14?
How are these in heaven?

Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Mat 25 half the church is left behind
They all die ,martyred.

That is why it says " ...patience of the saints" (do not resist)

 

[Absolutely]

And that's why your theory has no merit.

Jesus places it in heaven at the last supper.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Mat 25 half the church is left behind

How do you account for what Paul said here (to the Corinthians, no less):

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 [ylt] -

51 lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed; 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we — we shall be changed: 53 for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality;

[note it says "ALL" (re: the "we"--speaking of [to/for/about] "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [the "ONE BODY"])]


[This also shows the distinction between what is stated in 1Th5:10 with other passages: "[in order] that, whether we should watch, or whether we should sleep [same word as in v.6], we should live together with Him"]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ IOW, the "sleep" word used in 1Cor15:51 / 1Thess4:13,14,15 [G2837 - koimao] is wholly DISTINCT FROM the "sleep" word used in 1Thess5:10,6 [G2518 - katheudo]--That is, 1Thess5:10,6 is not speaking of "death," whereas the other is.

 

[louis]

I believe I *have* supplied scriptural support in past posts (perhaps even in this thread, not sure).

Revelation 1:1 states, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [Jesus] TO SHEW UNTO His servants [see Rev7:3 the 144000 "servants of our God"] things which must come to pass [<--compare 4:1's phrasing, re: the FUTURE aspects of the Book] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]…" NOT things which will transpire over the course of some 2000 years (i.e. not "FROM the first century"), but "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (parallel phrase to that found in Lk18:8 re: "avenge" [see Lk17-end context as well]; and parallel also to Rom16:20 [re: "the Church which is His body's" role, during that same future specific limited time frame, different location (1Cor6:3[14]; etc)]). Much more, but this is sufficient for now.

Note how the 144,000 (singular nation) is set in contradistinction to the "a great multitude... of all the nations [plural]" in Rev7. They are kept distinct BECAUSE they are not of "the Church which is His body" (wherein there is NO distinction, in our standing before God "IN Christ") though they are indeed "saints" (having come to faith IN/DURING the trib years [AFTER our Rapture]).

[Note and apply ('correctly apportion') the three distinct: "the Jews," "the Gentiles," "the Church of God"]

Isaiah 60 (your other passage) also shows them to be distinct.

Here is a quote by William Kelly, to that point:

[quoting]

"But in our chapter [Isa60] Jerusalem has its proper central place, as the metropolis of the earth when all shall be settled and governed according to God. Nor is it only sons and daughters that thus come to Zion from far, but strangers too. For there is then to be no such state of things on earth as the church of God, one body, Christ's body. On the contrary Gentiles and Israel, though both blessed by Jehovah, will be distinct and kept so, however harmonious in their relations." --Wm Kelly, Commentary on Isaiah 60 (from Bible Hub)

Note that the Matthew 24:29-31 gathering is parallel with Isaiah 27:12-13 where Israel will be gathered [AFTER/AT END of the trib] "ONE by ONE" (in CONTRAST to our Rapture, which will be "AS ONE" [the "ONE BODY"])

The 144,000 and the great multitude are all one fold in Revelation 7.
All perspectives must corrobate with all scriptures.
Perspectives based on one or two scripture, but that contradict other scriptures cannot stand.
Galatians 3:28 is another scripture that contradicts the seperate fold scenario which many here attest to.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[ketura]

taking the role of arguing neither for or against a pretrib gathering, but rather just pointing out what doesn't make sense to me, this is not a slam dunk.

If it is true there is a pretrib gathering (I say IF), and if it comes suddenly and unexpectedly, while people are going about their business normally, marrying and throwing parties (as it says), it would be that gathering and THAT appearing that could not be calculated or known as to timing.

if you have read revelation, it becomes quite apparent to you (the reader) that you could fairly easily know when He was coming because there is great detail regarding the horrible things that will happen.

so what I'm trying to convey to you is that you yourself, having read revelation, could follow the timeline of awful events and get a quite good estimation of when He would be coming. And yet it will be unexpectedly? And people will be carrying on as normal amid worldwide famine, decimated water supply, the sun burning men, etc.?

your argument doesn't help your argument. Doesn't mean there IS a pretrib gathering. Just means you might have to drop that part of your argument.

so your own argument comes back on you.

Just a bit of a personal matter...........🤣
Hmmm, so ye be here tooooo!
Looks like from the many yrs, ( since 2015, here) you've been on " C" sites, you'd be better & more seasoned.....& would NOT b a false prophet's cheering section by any means ANYWHERE!

Your frenemy Keturah !

 

[Nehemiah6]

IF there were a Rapture at the START of a 7-year tribulation period, then we would be able to calculate the exact date of Jesus's return and appearance in glory to earth, wouldn't we, i.e., 7 years after the date of the Rapture.

No one knows how much before the start of the Tribulation the Rapture takes place. So the exact date cannot be determined.

 

[crossnote]

IF there were a Rapture at the START of a 7-year tribulation period, then we would be able to calculate the exact date of Jesus's return and appearance in glory to earth, wouldn't we, i.e., 7 years after the date of the Rapture.

But the Bible says that no man knows the hour and even Jesus said that on THAT MATTER ONLY the Father knows the hour and day of Jesus's return.

Mark 13:32-33
But of that day and that hour knows no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.Take you heed, watch and pray: FOR YOU KNOW NOT WHEN THE TIME IS.

Therefore there can be NO Rapture at the start of a 7-year tribulation period because we would know how to calculate the day of His return 7 years later.

YehovaYeshua

Nice try but the same would hold true if the rapture was Mid or Post Trib.
Are you asking us to take an Amil or Preterist position to circumvent Mark 13:23?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

IF there were a Rapture at the START of a 7-year tribulation period, then we would be able to calculate the exact date of Jesus's return and appearance in glory to earth, wouldn't we, i.e., 7 years after the date of the Rapture.

But the Bible says that no man knows the hour and even Jesus said that on THAT MATTER ONLY the Father knows the hour and day of Jesus's return.

Mark 13:32-33
But of that day and that hour knows no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.Take you heed, watch and pray: FOR YOU KNOW NOT WHEN THE TIME IS.

Therefore there can be NO Rapture at the start of a 7-year tribulation period because we would know how to calculate the day of His return 7 years later.

YehovaYeshua

amen also it would make Jesus wrong when he said he would he th r his elect after the tribulation he explains was coming on the world

first he explains many trials and tribulations they must endure to the end

“And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows. But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. And the gospel must first be published among all nations. Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:5, 7-10, 12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We know that the church is present because he’s telling them not to fall into it when it comes but to stand form in n faith when it happens then he explains river Hope in enduring and standing strobe in faith


“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:24-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

There are many biblical reasons a pre tribulation rapture doesn’t fit into the doctrine of the Bible

But if there was a rapture ll the believers would be taken so no one would be left to calculate times and seasons