Need clarity regarding this Predestination thing and something related to an election?

Thank you. I did not intend to post the same question twice, especially one with zzzzzz! But I thank you for your responses.

I really agree with everything you're saying Macabeus. I also think these things are so very clear in ALL scripture. I was listening to Romans on my walk this morning and I do not understand how you can read Romans without seeing the major change that results from being born again. In Romans 7:14-25 this is a go to "see we still sin, we will always sin", verse.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Again I feel the need to make clear the point I am making is NOT we don't sin, it's about the way we speak of it, how we now see sin, how we are CHANGED and by His Spirit are no longer attracted to sin the same way we were before. We are made ALL NEW, and now by His grace, in our new nature desire to seek Him. This is repeated time and time again, let us keep reading into 8, lets try to see more of what Paul is saying.


There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Heirs with Christ
12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

Future Glory
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

God's Everlasting Love
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written,

“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I had to post the whole chapter, there is just too much to skip just so much. I truly do not understand how anyone can read this and not see the change in the person Paul is stressing. I really don't, and honestly it doesn't seem to matter where I go God is telling us the same thing.

I just want to proclaim Truth for His glory as I am commanded, I also feel lead to point out that being born again is just the beginning, not the finish line. We are on a walk with God, and the Spirit will guide us to all truth. I can honestly say that I can trust God 100% to do the same in others, all I am called to do is proclaim the truth to all nations (everyone). The thing about it is I would do nothing if God wouldn't have saved me. Even as a "sometimes go to church and wear a cross", kind of deceived"Christian", as in not a Christian at all, I would have praised anyone that did do this stuff, these "works", maybe even throw in a worthless "I wish I could find the time to do that", but know when I had any kind of "spare time" it was all for me doing what I wanted. See this is the thing about these works, we are not having to "make" ourselves do them, our nature has been changed in a way where we WANT to do them, and ONLY because of Jesus so He gets all credit period. It's really all Him, and my works are not mine. They are just His through me. The Name above all names, who has ALL authority in heaven and on earth, sitting at the right hand of God ruling until everything is put under His feet!!! Amen x 10.

Hey Jim, i saw ur reply to my text. Am sorry, though i saw it early i waited before i could text back. But i was also caught up in the conversation you people have been having. And i have something to say about what you have written in your posts by far.
So God has completely changed you... And the fruits are a result of that. Is this what u are saying. If that's so.. Why am i not changed..? Why do i still sin.. Why did you get such a great gift.. Why didn't He change me..? Why... Why you and not me..

And what about the babies?

Alright, got it. But then why does Jesus ask us to believe in Him and that by doing so we are saved....i don't mean to put forth an impression that i want to sin. But just this thing that how does believing in Jesus does EVERYTHING... when u just quoted that certain sins or behaviour can put someone to hell. To make my point clearer.. Its as though Jesus is saying.. Believe in me and in addition to that try not to commit adultery etc etc (back to the old testament)
I mean..' Believing in Jesus.'.. Is this what does EVERYTHING for us? It helps us not to sin.... And like... Believing is just enough because of its effects?.. I mean.. In that case people can be classified based on how they believe..
Type 1 :believes and sins
Type 2 :believes and does not sin
So.. So.. Hmm. There is power in the name of Jesus.. Ain't it? To break every chain..

Nah it's kind of like.. coming back to my Predestination question. Why is it that only... You are experiencing this grace. What did i do or not do that this grace hasn't come to me that i should stop sinning. This whole new birth thing... How does it come... By believing in Jesus right? Or u wanna differ..? Do u wanna say.. It just came out of nowhere... grace... In other words... That u didn't even need to believe.
Like if it came from no where... am fine with it.. Because i donno what believe means anyways... Yea... Even that word has me messed up.
I sound rude.. But am calm.

It's not grace if you have to work for it in any way.

Salvation is a gift. It was always a gift. It will remain a gift.

Without your "help" whatsoever.

Man I don't know, I have no idea why God does what He does, and if I haven't been clear enough I am not speaking about sinlessness, and your question is better directed at God not me to be honest. I'm just a regular guy just like you, but I will say that is the right question, He says if you seek you will find, knock and the door will be open. For the 10 millionth time I am not saying I do not sin still, I am saying God has made my spirit alive, it was dead, now it's alive. I see EVERYTHING different, especially sin, but it's still His grace man and nothing else why I'm saved man. Nothing else. I can't say it enough, but I can tell you I came to the end of myself. I broke man, I got to the point where I KNEW I could no longer handle life, on my own. I was done. I lost everything that made me "me". (my right, and dominate arm) Well I still had my life, and my job, my wife, my boys, a family that was there for me, I could still actually do my job, so much many wish for, and I had never felt more alone.

I had already done this "christian thing" and it didn't help. The whole repeat the prayer, now your saved but remember you will always sin powerless crap and it didn't help. Nope it wasn't until I hit my knee's in defeat, I was done and there was NOTHING I could do about it ever. When I hit my knees I didn't cry out "Jesus", I had been deceived into believing in a false powerless Jesus, I thought I had "done did that". No when I hit my knees this was what I said "I CAN'T DO THIS ANYMORE, I CAN'T DO THIS ANYMORE, I CAN'T DO THIS ANYMORE, I tried world, you got me. I QUIT!!!!!!!!!!". I literally quit life, in a broken weeping pile of nothing on the floor I saw my life for what it truly was, and I quit.
I woke up the next day and it wasn't until lunch that I realized that after 2 years solid of suicidal thoughts constantly, every day, that I realized "I haven't thought about killing myself all day!!!!!". It was insane to me but then and there I knew what ever happen, it was God, and that Jesus the Christ was His Son. I actually put all this in a "me using my talent to glorify Him" poem thing Where I Stand
This kind of lays out where I'm at and how He got me here, but know you are here right now for a purpose brother, and He works different in each of us, and uses our weaknesses and experiences to glorify Himself. He has power brother, the kind of power that changes the world, that's all I'm trying to say, and the whole focus on "we sin" should be far from our lips. We should be preaching the power of the reigning King above ALL kings Jesus, we should be telling people that their bondage to sin can be broken by the power and name of Jesus. Jesus is true brother, the very truth of reality who takes ex drug dealing, thieving, lying, cheating, the most self righteous, self serving, cold, violent, arrogant, ruthless, God hating gentiles, like myself, and have me proclaiming His name here, in my county jail (voluntarily now, lol), on the streets in the middle of my town, in a retirement home every 2nd Sunday each month, and it's all Him man, He gets ALL glory, I get none and deserve none, He saved me and calls you to repent and turn from "your way" then throw yourself at His feet. He says we must put to death the old man, I testify brother there is nothing this world has that offers that can match what being made whole with your Creator, as you were created to be, is. I am now born of the Spirit and must proclaim the truth. I pray God draw you into Himself and bring your spirit to life, LOL you will be floored with how many times you'll say "I can't believe I never saw that".

You are confusing GODS work with mans work. Holiness and PRESERVATION is Gods work not mans. Same thing I’ve been saying for how many days now. You don’t discern that God accomplishes these things. Faithful is He (God) who will finish the work HE begun. But apparently in your doctrine, there is no room for any continuing work, NOT EVEN GOD’s.

Exactly what I’ve been saying all along. They are works of God. But some people talk like believing in any works is bad, even Gods work. Have you been reading the posts.

Transformation comes through the renewing of your mind. Gods Word renews your mind as you submit to it, and God transforms you from the inside out. Desire the sincere milk of the Word that you may grow

This is growing into what God saved you to become. You are not doing it to be saved. You do it because you are saved and it’s Gods will for you.

Jesus saves through faith alone, because if it was up to us we would never make it. So we are saved freely, freely justified which means we are sinless in Gods eyes THE MOMENT we believe’ He sees us as perfect because of what Christ did in our behalf. He sees Christ’s blood instead of our sin. But now that we are saved, He wants to shape us and mold us into Christ’s image. This is the work of sanctification, which happens in two stages

Initial sanctification. The moment you believed we are set apart as holy to God, and are holy ones in His eyes, despite our imperfections

Continuing sanctification. The potter molds us into the image of His Son, as we grow, His work in us produces increasing Christlikeness.

How does this occur?

A. When you sin, confess it to God. 1 John 1:9. Name the sin out by name to Him, acknowledge it as sin, and ask Him to help you overcome sins you struggle with

B. Get in His Word. His word will renew your mind, and as you submit to it, recognize its authority, God will change your heart to conform to His Word. The reason we sin is because of heart issues. So to sin less, we need a heart change. He who loves more sins less

C. Get into prayer. It has been said that temptation is not a test of willpower, it is a test of relationship. Our relationship with God will determine how we respond when temptation comes

D. Fellowship. Get into fellowship and accountability with other believers

E. Ask God where you fit in in His kingdom and where and how He wants you to serve.

You are not doing these things to be saved. You would do them because you are saved, and as a new creation you desire God, His best for you, and in love you want to be your best for Him.

When a person is regenerated, they are a spiritual baby. Then growth begins. The fact I said growth needs to happen is what caused all this controversy. But I didn’t say we need to grow to stay saved. We need to grow BECAUSE IT IS GODS WILL FOR US. It should be perfectly natural for us to want to do Gods Will, and by your posts I see you have that desire

Don’t get discouraged. Growth is sometime a slow process. God is not making a Big Mac, He is slow cooking the greatest gourmet meal that you have never imagined. Don’t get discouraged. He has promised to complete the work He began in you

God bless

I know right, I don't know how to make my words ant more clear than I already have. I think your words are very clear as well man, but there is this disconnect that for some I believe Paul outlines in 1 Cor 2:

6 Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. 7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But, as it is written,

“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—

10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

This part is the real kicker and the one I'm most referring too.

14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

This is the red alert in this "debate" or whatever, but I have spoken to eternally-gratefull about this topic before and understand the angle he is coming at it with a history around extreme legalism, and that he is very careful to make the distinction between works being "for" salvation and "because of" salvation. This is something Bud thinks is interchangeable, like you said just strait up making "works", or as I call it living in Jesus, a bad thing all together. As if Jesus came to punch our heaven ticket and we just go on as we were. NO that is powerless and insulting to the true and living God that not only condescended into His creation to lay down His life so that we might be reconciled to Him, but was also willing to put the wrath that the world was under on His only Son. This is how our God loves the world, and He CHANGES men, for real, on earth, here and now, all for His glory. As you well know.

Anyway brother I hope you have a great day, I pray you and your family be drawn closer everyday, and I truly pray that Budman and Milee777 specifically, are both greatly blessed in the way only our Creator can bless us and opened up to a whole new realm of truth no matter where our Father has them on their walk, in Jesus name. Amen

You are as
I tried to find the bible translation that is used in the above response. Unable. Anyone know?

No you sound awesome, and honestly seeking. This is GREAT in my opinion, and necessary. I read your profile "about" and it reminded me that God draws us in personally, and works in each one differently. For example I have shared my rebirth, I was spiritually broken as a result of my body being broken physically and me having no way to "fix" it, it was an overnight, makes a great story, kind of rebirth, but in contrast my wife came to Him in a quite room all by herself and His word. Then prayed for years that I was saved, and like I shared up there, she was blessed to see God save me from complete broken devastation. I was broken and overnight Life. I said all this to make 1 point I told my wife when she felt like her story wasn't "big" enough. I said that yes in front of people my testimony is more flashy and dramatic, but when I am on my face before the glory of our Lord giving account, which testimony would I rather have there? you know what I mean?

But have heard all kinds of testimonies of different ways God drew people in, in jail cells after 30 years of heroine addiction, setting out on a scholarly mission to disprove it and looking at the actual evidence believe, Some that have really just always been in and around the church and loved it, and not to sound too "judgey" or dismissive at all, but the fact is I hear very few of what I like call "church record salvation" testimonies, where people actually testify that this spiritual rebirth took place as a result of this method of the "repeat a prayer" method, that I can't find in the bible. Again please understand I believe God can use ANYTHING to save us, and I know that He use's things we would have never thought to reveal Himself to us, but these are things I have seen over time.

I actually love your questions, and the fact you said "i donno what believe means anyways", testifies to my heart personally, so much, and says to me that you are thinking these things out well, because one of the very first things that struck me after I was reborn was what a HUGE word "believe" truly is, and the fact you realize that is amazing to me. Being reborn is more that parroting some words after a pastor though for sure. All I can tell you happen that day for me is I was granted true repentance and say "my way" for the path to death it was. Outside of that I have no clue now to explain, but as an encouragement I to believe that God has a reason for this very conversation, and your open honesty I believe is a gift right from Him and He is scooping you up. Just remember it's between you and Him, I heard testimony where the prayer was pretty much, (in jail too by the way) "God if your there, I don'y know if I'll believe in you tomorrow, but I believe in you right now, so if you can use me then I'm yours.", and woke up new. If you seek you will find, and I see you seeking. I truly hope you have a great day, and may God do mighty things through you in His power and in Jesus name. Amen.

It's the ESV.