Rapture

Isaiah 26 is about the dead in the Lord rising up and being protected from the wrath. So you believe dead Jews will resurrected and be protected from the wrath?!

Again, not PHYSICALLY dead Jews (read the passages I supplied: NONE are referring to physically DEAD Israel, but LIVING/ALIVE/MORTALS still living--ALL LIKENED UNTO a resurrection, as I've noted several times in past posts). I had added, note the "FLEE" passages also (that is, "ACTIVELY FLEE"--and to that last post I'd run out of editing time to add Luke 21:36, which I've mentioned before also is NOT a "rapture" passage).

I was just coming back to tack on another set of verses I'd forgotten to add to that post.

In the Ezekiel references I've noted (in that post, and others in previous posts), we should understand the following:

--Romans 9:26 / Hosea 1:10-11 about ISRAEL [distinct from Romans 9:25 / Hosea 2:23b about GENTILES], and their FUTURE

--[in light of THAT ^ ] Ezekiel 38-39 also references "My people" and "My people of Israel" 39:7 etc [thus supplying the FUTURE timing of chpts 38-39, which chpts also refer to "WRATH" words, such as in 38:18-19]; recall I said I believe this fits into the SECOND SEAL WARS time slot (that is, DURING the future 70th Week/7-yrs/2520 days, which FOLLOWS the Rapture of "the Church which is His body" which I believe is represented by the 24 elders in Rev4-5 before the opening of the FIRST SEAL (the man of sin be revealed... IN HIS TIME)]

--Isaiah 26:16-21 also refers to "My people" [to be understood also in view of what I put in the first bullet-point]



--at the time of the Olivet Discourse, Jesus HAD NOT YET spoken to His disciples any thing regarding a "Rapture" (which was revealed and then explained ELSEWHERE, NOT in the Olivet Discourse [and not yet at that time, had been])

--[the 12] were promised to sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel

--the Church which is His body is promised "we shall JUDGE ANGELS" (etc)

You quote so many verses to your own confusion, we are talking about Isaiah 26 but you are all over the place.

Isa 26:
19But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
20Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
21See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.


Does this talk about the living Jews during the time of wrath?

I just told you my answer in the post/s above. Why are you still asking that same question?


Many pre-tribbers believe this is a rapture passage. I DO NOT, as that is not its CONTEXT.



[Romans 11:15 - "15 For if the casting away of them [Israel] be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them [Israel] be, but life from the dead?" is NOT talking about PHYSICALLY-DEAD Israel being raised from dirt graves/6-ft -under/burial-plots, but parallels all the other passages (I supplied SEVERAL) referring to THEIR end times status, as STILL-LIVING PERSONS at that time, YET FUTURE, as I said]

There will many people who come to faith within the tribulation period (which, yes, I consider all 7 years to be His wrath, when Jesus [will] "STANDS to JUDGE" [Isa3:13; Lam2:3-4,1-7 (paralleling 2Th2:7-8a) [note "wrath" words]; Rev4-5]). The purpose [of the 70th Wk/7-yrs/trib] is to bring them to faith, and consequently entrance into their promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [on the earth]," aka "the kingdom of the heavens [on the earth, upon His 'RETURN' there]". Some will [if they will heed His Word]. Some will not.

A sickle is an instrument of harvest. It has nothing to do with tribulation. And Revelation 14 has nothing to do with the harvesting of grapes. The clusters and grapes represents believers being harvested.

In chapter 14, "the son of man" sits on a white cloud.
Rev 14:14 "And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle."

The rapture and the resurrection is a time of reaping and harvest.

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Mark 4:28-29 For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear. But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.
The gathering will take place in the the clouds of the sky (Mt. 24:30; 1 Thess. 4:17).

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Before the rapture Christ first raises the righteous dead. Here is the resurrection of the dead and the gathering of the living righteous. We know this event is said to precede the rapture of the living.

In Mathew 13 both the righteous and the wicked are harvested and that's the same situation in Revelation 14.
Revelation 14:14-16 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

In verse Revelation 14:14-16 there is a harvest. Both the resurrection of the righteous dead and the rapture are included in verses 14-16. In Mathew 13 the Lord tells us that the harvest is the end of the world and the angels do the gathering.

Mathew 13 is about the wheat and the tares and how they are allowed to grow together until the harvest where they are BOTH reaped. And coincidentally, the wheat and the tares are mentioned in Revelation 14. The wheat between verses 14-16. The tares between verses 17-20. Our Lord said in Mathew 13:36-42.

Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

A close look at Mathew 13's wheat and tares and Revelation 14's two harvest reveals that they are almost identical.

So my conclusion is that Revelation 14:14-16 is the resurrection of both the dead in Christ and the living righteous, or the wheat.

And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

And Revelation 14:17-20 is the resurrection of the wicked or the tares.

And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. *And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Notice too that the angel in Rev 14:18 is said to have power over fire. And this is also mentioned in Mathew 13:39-42.

Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Joel 3:13 13 Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, go down; For the winepress is full, The vats overflow -- For their wickedness is great."

The tribulation has a purpose. It's to purify the Church by bringing it to repentance, and to restore Israel. The rapture happens in Revelation 14 just before God's wrath is poured out so that Christians aren't the recipients of, and God is not guilty of, "friendly fire" like the plagues in chapter 15.

You have said the context of Isaiah 26 is Israel (tribal Jews) and we see clearly that it talks about the dead rising and earth dwellers being judged for shedding their blood.

My question is very simple- If these are Jews,

do you believe Jews will be resurrected before the wrath

and is the wrath on earth dwellers because they killed the Jews in tribulation?

correct, that is the context



--not a "PHYSICAL/BODILY" resurrection but LIKENED UNTO one (per all of the other passages REGARDING *THIS* [already supplied, plus more along these lines/context])

--they are "raised/revived" DURING "their "affliction" (see Hosea 5:15-6:3) and note what it says in v.3 (about going on to know Him)



Not entirely, but this is part of it. (They also will exist on the earth DURING the trib [Gentiles and Jews, also "the wicked" as here in this text], and experience that time period [70th Wk/7-yrs--or as much of it wherein they are living and not killed]).

As I've said, some will come to faith within that time period (if they will heed His Word), whereas others will not.

Does that help any?

Compare the phrase "those who dwell in dust" (which is Israel scattered amongst the nationS) with other similar passages (about THEM).

I did supply in my first bullet-point, about the foundational idea: Romans 9:26/Hosea 1:10-11 (DISTINCT FROM Romans 9:25/Hosea2:23b about GENTILES).

9:26 states: "And it shall come to pass, that in the place where IT WAS SAID UNTO THEM [Israel], YE ARE not My people; there SHALL THEY be called the children of the living God."

This (understanding the DISTINCTION between the subjects of v26 and v.25), coupled with chpt 11 regarding Israel's "future" (esp. "blindness... UNTIL"), will aid one's understanding of the "those who dwell in the dust" [the 'graveyard of nations'--notice in the passages I supplied also] and their "wake up" passages regarding THEM (still-living Jews, at the time referenced [future]).

Greetings Dudelydorite,

The tribulation period, I.e. that last seven years will be in fulfillment of the seventy sevens that were decreed upon Israed and Jerusalem (Dan.9:24). The tribulation is not for the church, but for unbelievers, those who will have continued to reject Christ and continue living according to the sinful nature. The individual believer within the church was purified when he received Christ, being credited with righteousness and reconciled to God. That tribulation period will be the time of God's wrath, which we as believers are not appointed to suffer and from which Jesus rescues us from (Rom.5:9, I Thes.1:10, 5:9, Rev.3:10). Therefore, if you have the church as being those who are being harvested in Rev.14, your interpretation would put the living church through the majority of God's wrath, which will take place during that entire seven years. If you will notice, the word "Ekklesia" translated "Church" is not found after the end of chapter 3. This is not a coincidence, but God is giving us a clue that the church is no longer on the earth from Rev.4 onward. In fact, Rev.4:1-2 is a prophetic allusion to the church being caught up, which is why the word church no longer appears afterwards. The word "hagios" translated "Saints" which is used after that is referring to the those white robed saints which no man can count introduced in Rev.7:9-17, who will be those who will come to Christ after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath. These are those whom the elder refers to as the great tribulation saints, which is not the church.

Greetings Dudelydorite,

The tribulation period, I.e. that last seven years will be in fulfillment of the seventy sevens that were decreed upon Israed and Jerusalem (Dan.9:24). The tribulation is not for the church, but for unbelievers, those who will have continued to reject Christ and continue living according to the sinful nature.

The individual believer within the church was purified when he received Christ, being credited with righteousness and reconciled to God. That tribulation period will be the time of God's wrath, which we as believers are not appointed to suffer and from which Jesus rescues us from (Rom.5:9, I Thes.1:10, 5:9, Rev.3:10).

1 Thes. tells us that we will all endure tribulation up until the time Christ is glorified in his saints. God is not a respecter of persons. He has never taken anybody OUT of their troubles but helps them through them.



You should listen to God's Word instead of men trying to deceive you through fabrication. Take a look at how bad you are interpreting these verses.

Romans 5:9...

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 5 isn't talking about a rapture or the end-times. How is one being saved from the wrath?
By justification by the blood of Christ! NOT a rapture!

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

He delivered us at the cross!

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Not appointed to wrath is attributed to the result of salvation.

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

That was written to the Church in Philly. To keep thee from means to "to attend to carefully, take care of." Nothing about removal by a rapture.

1. to guard

"

We escape.
That is how we are kept out of it.
The baby Jesus was taken out as was lot.
Noah ASCENDED to the heavens via the ark.

Pretrib rapture is Gods gathering of the Bride.
Fits perfectly and incorporates way more verses. Thats why you leave them out. They remove your scenario.
Pretrib is the only position that harmonizes when all components are test fitted.

Well how about you "test fitting" this absolutely? It says at Matthew 24:12-14, "And because lawlessness is increased most of people's love will grow cold. vs13, But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved/delivered. vs14, And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, AND THEN THE END SHALL COME."

So here's the question? Are the verses I just quoted applied to the Jews only and not for the Gentiles? Just so you know, I am setting up a trap for you!

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto