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All those are the anti-feminists songs I grew up with. If you listen carefully, two of them are feminists songs.
I really don't think the mentality shown on these pages is any different than mine. But it's kind of like a conversation I overheard with two neighbors yesterday. The absolute worse thing in their lives was they have water bugs (black roaches -- very common) in their homes. To one of the participation, "If a water bug walks through my living room, I'll die of a stroke."
Really? Really? The thing that was cause that much damage is merely a creepy bug? (And I'm terrified of bugs, so I get the fear.) I want that life!
Except I know her well enough to know the damn bug isn't the worse thing that could ever happen to her. The worse thing that could ever happen to her, (outside of missing God), already has happened. She lost her husband ten years ago. (She's about my age.)
A water bug isn't the worse thing that has ever happened. Feminism isn't the worse thing that ever happened. You're young. (Hey, "young" is anyone under 50. I'm not saying you're kids. I'm saying your young.) You don't remember when it was bad. You don't remember the days when women went to college to find themselves a husband. You don't remember when women had to stay home with the kids. No other choice. Having kids was the main purpose for a woman's life. Coming in second place was to take care of her husband. You don't remember when men thought they gave their wives a good life by handing them over a chunk of meat to make dinner with, so why should the wife feel unfulfilled? You don't remember when "unfulfilled" wasn't even a word used.
And, I'm young. I don't remember when men thought it was foolish for a woman to vote. "Why worry their pretty little brains?" And I don't remember when the main streets of almost every town were lined with men sitting on chairs with bottles in their hands all day and night, and then finally coming home on Friday night to beat their wives, and steal the money they scrounged for all week by washing laundry and darning socks to pay for the food to feed their kids. (That was the reason for the Prohibition Amendment. Not like it was women with nothing better to do than scowl at men drinking.) And I don't remember the big hullabaloo over Rosy the Riveter. And I don't remember what it was for a woman to go through the efforts to become a doctor only to have most people avoid her, because women should never be doctors. (I do remember being shocked when I heard of a woman doctor.)
BUT, I listened to the stories of those generations. And I absolutely know that if it weren't for them, I wouldn't have this world today. If some crazy Quaker women didn't open a store to sell antique jewelry, she probably never would have thought to suggest her daughter go to college to learn how to do something. (They were high society, so my grandmother did not have to go to college to marry a rich man. Going to charity balls and polo matches would have worked.) And if that women who did go to college, hadn't taught her daughter about standing on her own two feet, Mom wouldn't have taught me to make my own decisions in life.
It seems to me being anti-feminist is kind of like being anti-dishwasher. We don't need feminists anymore today than we need dishwashers. Dishes will be cleaned whether washed by hand or washed in a machine. And women will get our rights whether they are feminists or not. The snowball has been rolling down the hill long enough that it's an avalanche now. Matter of fact, the avalanche landed, and we need to clear out extra junk picked up along the way. (Moronic to lower standards to include women. If I'm in a fire, I want someone strong enough to pull me out, not PCism. If we're at war, I want soldier who can carry 50-100 pounds 20 miles a day, not PCism. If someone is mugging me, I can't a cop who can hogtie him, not PCism. And I no more want a topless woman on a train with me than I want a topless man on a train with me. Cover up, people!)
BUT, in 1999, a young woman published a fantasy using just her first initials because the publishing industry knew the world wasn't ready for a fantasy by a mere women. Fantasies are always written by men. It's 2017, and Joanne Rowling has gone past just her initials to hide who she is.
I really don't think the mentality shown on these pages is any different than mine. But it's kind of like a conversation I overheard with two neighbors yesterday. The absolute worse thing in their lives was they have water bugs (black roaches -- very common) in their homes. To one of the participation, "If a water bug walks through my living room, I'll die of a stroke."
Really? Really? The thing that was cause that much damage is merely a creepy bug? (And I'm terrified of bugs, so I get the fear.) I want that life!
Except I know her well enough to know the damn bug isn't the worse thing that could ever happen to her. The worse thing that could ever happen to her, (outside of missing God), already has happened. She lost her husband ten years ago. (She's about my age.)
A water bug isn't the worse thing that has ever happened. Feminism isn't the worse thing that ever happened. You're young. (Hey, "young" is anyone under 50. I'm not saying you're kids. I'm saying your young.) You don't remember when it was bad. You don't remember the days when women went to college to find themselves a husband. You don't remember when women had to stay home with the kids. No other choice. Having kids was the main purpose for a woman's life. Coming in second place was to take care of her husband. You don't remember when men thought they gave their wives a good life by handing them over a chunk of meat to make dinner with, so why should the wife feel unfulfilled? You don't remember when "unfulfilled" wasn't even a word used.
And, I'm young. I don't remember when men thought it was foolish for a woman to vote. "Why worry their pretty little brains?" And I don't remember when the main streets of almost every town were lined with men sitting on chairs with bottles in their hands all day and night, and then finally coming home on Friday night to beat their wives, and steal the money they scrounged for all week by washing laundry and darning socks to pay for the food to feed their kids. (That was the reason for the Prohibition Amendment. Not like it was women with nothing better to do than scowl at men drinking.) And I don't remember the big hullabaloo over Rosy the Riveter. And I don't remember what it was for a woman to go through the efforts to become a doctor only to have most people avoid her, because women should never be doctors. (I do remember being shocked when I heard of a woman doctor.)
BUT, I listened to the stories of those generations. And I absolutely know that if it weren't for them, I wouldn't have this world today. If some crazy Quaker women didn't open a store to sell antique jewelry, she probably never would have thought to suggest her daughter go to college to learn how to do something. (They were high society, so my grandmother did not have to go to college to marry a rich man. Going to charity balls and polo matches would have worked.) And if that women who did go to college, hadn't taught her daughter about standing on her own two feet, Mom wouldn't have taught me to make my own decisions in life.
It seems to me being anti-feminist is kind of like being anti-dishwasher. We don't need feminists anymore today than we need dishwashers. Dishes will be cleaned whether washed by hand or washed in a machine. And women will get our rights whether they are feminists or not. The snowball has been rolling down the hill long enough that it's an avalanche now. Matter of fact, the avalanche landed, and we need to clear out extra junk picked up along the way. (Moronic to lower standards to include women. If I'm in a fire, I want someone strong enough to pull me out, not PCism. If we're at war, I want soldier who can carry 50-100 pounds 20 miles a day, not PCism. If someone is mugging me, I can't a cop who can hogtie him, not PCism. And I no more want a topless woman on a train with me than I want a topless man on a train with me. Cover up, people!)
BUT, in 1999, a young woman published a fantasy using just her first initials because the publishing industry knew the world wasn't ready for a fantasy by a mere women. Fantasies are always written by men. It's 2017, and Joanne Rowling has gone past just her initials to hide who she is.
why i'm not a feminist (sorry):
1960s feminism was a good thing for this country. it's gone beyond that, tho (3rd wave), and is now untenable.
besides, i'm a er, human-ist.
i'm for humans, whoever and wherever they are. there are plenty of men and little boys the world over whose rights need to be fought for, too. why limit it to one gender? let's be pro-people-who-need-help, yeah?
1960s feminism was a good thing for this country. it's gone beyond that, tho (3rd wave), and is now untenable.
besides, i'm a er, human-ist.
i'm for humans, whoever and wherever they are. there are plenty of men and little boys the world over whose rights need to be fought for, too. why limit it to one gender? let's be pro-people-who-need-help, yeah?
D
why i'm not a feminist (sorry):
1960s feminism was a good thing for this country. it's gone beyond that, tho (3rd wave), and is now untenable.
besides, i'm a er, human-ist.
i'm for humans, whoever and wherever they are. there are plenty of men and little boys the world over whose rights need to be fought for, too. why limit it to one gender? let's be pro-people-who-need-help, yeah?
1960s feminism was a good thing for this country. it's gone beyond that, tho (3rd wave), and is now untenable.
besides, i'm a er, human-ist.
i'm for humans, whoever and wherever they are. there are plenty of men and little boys the world over whose rights need to be fought for, too. why limit it to one gender? let's be pro-people-who-need-help, yeah?
G
That is absurd.
They just don't like any "negative" word that tells the truth about what they are trying to be...
The word 'bossy' just may very well be the single-most-descriptive word of the idealism and intent of [ modern ] feminism. hahahahaha
( I do not believe that I have - or, remember - any specific knowledge about any recent feminist cause concerning the word 'bossy'. )
They just don't like any "negative" word that tells the truth about what they are trying to be...
The word 'bossy' just may very well be the single-most-descriptive word of the idealism and intent of [ modern ] feminism.
hahahahaha( I do not believe that I have - or, remember - any specific knowledge about any recent feminist cause concerning the word 'bossy'. )
G
We don't exist in a vacuum. There is much owed to those who came before us in many, many ways.
King John is an ancestor of mine, so our families may have been at loggerheads.
King John is an ancestor of mine, so our families may have been at loggerheads.
The worst English king in your lineage. But that is redeemed by having some Plantagenet blood in you, and Eleanor of Acquitaine of course.
G
This song is sad, but I contest that being an antifeminist is not pro domestic abuse. I simply believe that men and women are equal in the US, and most of the so called male oppression is simply silliness. I know there are many millions of women oppressed in developing nations. If feminists really want a worthy cause, they'd go after working for these rights, instead. The one child policy in China, for example.
D
Ahhh! You're using feminism as the banner for all stupid things the anarchist want. (Including kids are fine with profanities, but not bossy.)
Have you ever managed to not merely get through Numbers, but actually study it, even briefly? At least enough to see the 13 tribes and in what order they fit around the tabernacle? Imagine that layout. 13 tribes all under on banner -- God's banner. BUT each tribe had their own banner to tote who they were. And I suspect they were as boastful about which tribe they belonged to as we are about what nation we belong to today.
BUT the banner you are coming against, at least in that post, isn't the one titled "Feminists." It is still apart of the bigger banner though -- Anarchy/God-haters. That's the nation. Modern BS-feminism is just one of many tribes under that banner.
The reason I'm bringing this up, (besides the obvious of trying to get you to see the good of what feminism did give us, of course lol) has everything to do with being at war. "Know your enemy."
There were 13 tribes under the banner of God. 2.2 million people (including women and children.) The census was about how many fighting men were in each tribe. It averaged in the low to mid 20,000 region. So, you would think you don't want to even attack any one tribe, unless you know the other 12 were far away and you had the manpower to take on just one.
BUT that's not good thinking either. You could be seeing the Levites. Whereas, they were skilled at hauling and slaughtering cattle, goat or sheep, (that's some consistent heavy-duty lifting), and they were also able to spear unrepentant fornicators hard enough to kill both the man and woman in one throw, they still spent most of their time as priest, not warriors. It was Ephraim you should be sacred of.
In like ways, we need to know our enemy. It's not the Ashley Judds and the Madonnas that lead the feminists. They're merely pawns. And feminists are to anarchist what transgenders are to the homosexual community. They're merely token players to get more agreement/a bigger group. After all that, even modern feminists are second class citizens in their own side.
We are at war. We always have been since the moment we were saved. (Before that even, but we were blinded and protected.) It's important to get perspective on the enemy, because the enemy is sneaky. And, in this case, I'm not talking demons, (although I wouldn't be surprised if they're related somehow too), I'm talking anarchist out to destroy any freedom to be with God.
See as much of the battlefield as possible, because we don't have time to take it in when we're in the heat of battle. This is way bigger than the modern-feminist-movement. And the modern-feminist-movement is a bowel movement.
Have you ever managed to not merely get through Numbers, but actually study it, even briefly? At least enough to see the 13 tribes and in what order they fit around the tabernacle? Imagine that layout. 13 tribes all under on banner -- God's banner. BUT each tribe had their own banner to tote who they were. And I suspect they were as boastful about which tribe they belonged to as we are about what nation we belong to today.
BUT the banner you are coming against, at least in that post, isn't the one titled "Feminists." It is still apart of the bigger banner though -- Anarchy/God-haters. That's the nation. Modern BS-feminism is just one of many tribes under that banner.
The reason I'm bringing this up, (besides the obvious of trying to get you to see the good of what feminism did give us, of course lol) has everything to do with being at war. "Know your enemy."
There were 13 tribes under the banner of God. 2.2 million people (including women and children.) The census was about how many fighting men were in each tribe. It averaged in the low to mid 20,000 region. So, you would think you don't want to even attack any one tribe, unless you know the other 12 were far away and you had the manpower to take on just one.
BUT that's not good thinking either. You could be seeing the Levites. Whereas, they were skilled at hauling and slaughtering cattle, goat or sheep, (that's some consistent heavy-duty lifting), and they were also able to spear unrepentant fornicators hard enough to kill both the man and woman in one throw, they still spent most of their time as priest, not warriors. It was Ephraim you should be sacred of.
In like ways, we need to know our enemy. It's not the Ashley Judds and the Madonnas that lead the feminists. They're merely pawns. And feminists are to anarchist what transgenders are to the homosexual community. They're merely token players to get more agreement/a bigger group. After all that, even modern feminists are second class citizens in their own side.
We are at war. We always have been since the moment we were saved. (Before that even, but we were blinded and protected.) It's important to get perspective on the enemy, because the enemy is sneaky. And, in this case, I'm not talking demons, (although I wouldn't be surprised if they're related somehow too), I'm talking anarchist out to destroy any freedom to be with God.
See as much of the battlefield as possible, because we don't have time to take it in when we're in the heat of battle. This is way bigger than the modern-feminist-movement. And the modern-feminist-movement is a bowel movement.
G
This is a sad song, too. I'd think this one is feminist, though. I had a grudge against James Brown for years because I thought he was a jerk who had cheated on Carly Simon and broke up their marriage. I guess I based it on the "You're So Vain" song. Anyway, I found out on the internet that she cheated on him FIRST and broke up the marriage. And the "You're So Vain" song is really about Warren Beatty.
My point is, I wonder if her negative views about marriage were with her going in, so she did not take her vows seriously. I read comments from people online saying that they could "not predict what another person does", so they can't go into marriage fully believing that the other would be always faithful. I wonder if this lack of faith is partly responsible for the break down in marriages. I know if I ever get married, it will be to a man I have 100% faith in that he will remain faithful. I think a lot of people think marriage is transitory or something.
I am glad God came into your life and brought you John.
My point is, I wonder if her negative views about marriage were with her going in, so she did not take her vows seriously. I read comments from people online saying that they could "not predict what another person does", so they can't go into marriage fully believing that the other would be always faithful. I wonder if this lack of faith is partly responsible for the break down in marriages. I know if I ever get married, it will be to a man I have 100% faith in that he will remain faithful. I think a lot of people think marriage is transitory or something.
I am glad God came into your life and brought you John.
Actually, there are feminists who are striving to make hip-hop and rap more inclusive and less degrading to women, than the objectifying songs that I mentioned. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hip-hop_feminism]
So far, in this thread, all the songs that have been put up are merely old songs -hence don't get airtime. I really don't know any feminist getting angry or spending their time protesting some of these songs - that assumption is asinine.
(however Dre has some more anti-feminist tracks on his records if you wish to listen to that)
An addendum -
If someone doesn't like songs because they are not empowering - it is a matter of choice. Not everyone wants to be a lovesick, man-crazy woman. (the theme being posted most often)
Some just want to be independent and get an equal chance to have their say. If you have never come across mansplaining or being interrupted by men in power meetings- then good for you. ( I also don't think it is as gender-driven)
However there have been plenty of incidents where subtle acts of psychological dominance have been manifested further on with reports released quite recently such as -how VC's tend to favor men over women or that Google (accused of unequal wage payment) will not release data as to why women are paid less than men.
So far, in this thread, all the songs that have been put up are merely old songs -hence don't get airtime. I really don't know any feminist getting angry or spending their time protesting some of these songs - that assumption is asinine.
(however Dre has some more anti-feminist tracks on his records if you wish to listen to that)
An addendum -
If someone doesn't like songs because they are not empowering - it is a matter of choice. Not everyone wants to be a lovesick, man-crazy woman. (the theme being posted most often)
Some just want to be independent and get an equal chance to have their say. If you have never come across mansplaining or being interrupted by men in power meetings- then good for you. ( I also don't think it is as gender-driven)
However there have been plenty of incidents where subtle acts of psychological dominance have been manifested further on with reports released quite recently such as -how VC's tend to favor men over women or that Google (accused of unequal wage payment) will not release data as to why women are paid less than men.
G
I am FOR women voting, holding public office, working any job they like. I am FOR women being educated and going to any university they may get accepted (according to transcripts and not gender). I am FOR women retaining the custody of their children in divorce (if the mother is a fit parent). I am FOR equal pay for equal work.
I am AGAINST abortion. I am AGAINST lowering fitness levels for the police force, firefighters, military. I am AGAINST being told which words I can not use. I still say "policeman, mailman, fireman" for men who hold those positions. I use 'Miss' because I don't need to hide the fact that I am unmarried and use 'Ms' instead. I am very much AGAINST denigrating men and the prevalent practice of pretending that there are no differences between the sexes. Vive le difference. I am AGAINST women telling traditional women that they are "brainwashed" or incompetent or whatever because they choose to be submissive wives or choose home over career.
So, I don't describe myself as a feminist. But, I think you and I are more on the same page than we may think.
I am AGAINST abortion. I am AGAINST lowering fitness levels for the police force, firefighters, military. I am AGAINST being told which words I can not use. I still say "policeman, mailman, fireman" for men who hold those positions. I use 'Miss' because I don't need to hide the fact that I am unmarried and use 'Ms' instead. I am very much AGAINST denigrating men and the prevalent practice of pretending that there are no differences between the sexes. Vive le difference. I am AGAINST women telling traditional women that they are "brainwashed" or incompetent or whatever because they choose to be submissive wives or choose home over career.
So, I don't describe myself as a feminist. But, I think you and I are more on the same page than we may think.
G
I know they are old songs, that was what I wondered about in my initial post. Young women have not heard these songs, and I wondered if they did, if they would get a visceral reaction toward them- not that they were protesting them or something. I am an outlier, so I am familiar with older music. I am sure most women 40 and younger don't listen to these old songs and I wondered what a present day feminist in this age group would think about them. I don't listen to Dre or hip hop or rap. I am not a feminist, but I find belittling women as something disgusting.
I would state that traditional women would like to have their say, too. Maybe their say is "I am devoted to my husband and children. My world is a kingdom within this home." In the US some women independently chose to become homemakers.
In the business world, it is often dog eat dog. The rat race. Perhaps in business, man splaining and cutting someone off in conversation is merely competition and has nothing to do with gender- as you said. I don't know if in business it is psychological dominance because the other person is a woman, or if the other person is simply a business competitor. I bet there are a lot of men who practice psychological dominance over other men in the business world.
I don't know what VC's are. I am not sure about Google, but could it be that the women are not working as much as the men? I assume that they have a very generous maternity leave for their employees. Which is a good thing, however, if a woman is not at work for five or six months- should she get paid as much as Joe who is there 12 months? Is the Google thing an average? Are the women paid a less salary for the same jobs? Or are there simply more men in jobs which require more expertise and knowledge? It's IT, and something not as many women as men are drawn to as a profession. Are the men more experienced? What is the tenure?
There are many factors going into determining what are fair wages.
IF Sally and Joe have (1) the same level of experience (2) the same tenure at the company (3) the same educational levels (4) the same amount of hours on the job and Joe is paid more, I would say it is unjust. But I would have to know all of these pertinent details before determining if Sally's pay was unfair.
I would state that traditional women would like to have their say, too. Maybe their say is "I am devoted to my husband and children. My world is a kingdom within this home." In the US some women independently chose to become homemakers.
In the business world, it is often dog eat dog. The rat race. Perhaps in business, man splaining and cutting someone off in conversation is merely competition and has nothing to do with gender- as you said. I don't know if in business it is psychological dominance because the other person is a woman, or if the other person is simply a business competitor. I bet there are a lot of men who practice psychological dominance over other men in the business world.
I don't know what VC's are. I am not sure about Google, but could it be that the women are not working as much as the men? I assume that they have a very generous maternity leave for their employees. Which is a good thing, however, if a woman is not at work for five or six months- should she get paid as much as Joe who is there 12 months? Is the Google thing an average? Are the women paid a less salary for the same jobs? Or are there simply more men in jobs which require more expertise and knowledge? It's IT, and something not as many women as men are drawn to as a profession. Are the men more experienced? What is the tenure?
There are many factors going into determining what are fair wages.
IF Sally and Joe have (1) the same level of experience (2) the same tenure at the company (3) the same educational levels (4) the same amount of hours on the job and Joe is paid more, I would say it is unjust. But I would have to know all of these pertinent details before determining if Sally's pay was unfair.
@Galatea:
1. Well by the definition of your thread - called anti-feminist - being against feminism (which is at the very heart equality not about being a traditional-housewife), the songs I posted would fall under that category.
If being a traditional woman is being anti feminist, maybe you missed out on a broader definition of feminism.
Abortion as an issue, while overlapping with women's decisions over their bodies doesn't symbolize feminism. There are plenty of feminists who are pro birth.
If you would like to paint all feminists with the same broad brush, then it is quite fair enough for someone to think all Christians are like the Westboro Baptists or insert whatever-nutty-religious-legalistic-group.
2. VC stands for Venture Capitalists - who control firms that invest wealth and capital into budding start ups. They review business plans and decide on seed funds.
3. Also, about mansplaining - those are just my thoughts. I am not on authority on this and hence, it may or may not be true. There have been some reports and studies which seem to conclude this is an actual phenomenon but I would like to clarify that I did not say it did not exist.
4. You can do your own investigation into whether Google is really an equal payment provider and perhaps go about doing so, answering the questions you posed. (Currently at the moment, the investigation is being led by the US Department of Labor)
[However please refrain from the hypothesis that most of the women working are taking maternity leave. FYI, Google offers both paternity and maternity leave. Paternity leave is around 12 weeks.]
My point in mentioning those two scenarios is that we still have issues with gender gaps.
1. Well by the definition of your thread - called anti-feminist - being against feminism (which is at the very heart equality not about being a traditional-housewife), the songs I posted would fall under that category.
If being a traditional woman is being anti feminist, maybe you missed out on a broader definition of feminism.
Abortion as an issue, while overlapping with women's decisions over their bodies doesn't symbolize feminism. There are plenty of feminists who are pro birth.
If you would like to paint all feminists with the same broad brush, then it is quite fair enough for someone to think all Christians are like the Westboro Baptists or insert whatever-nutty-religious-legalistic-group.
2. VC stands for Venture Capitalists - who control firms that invest wealth and capital into budding start ups. They review business plans and decide on seed funds.
3. Also, about mansplaining - those are just my thoughts. I am not on authority on this and hence, it may or may not be true. There have been some reports and studies which seem to conclude this is an actual phenomenon but I would like to clarify that I did not say it did not exist.
4. You can do your own investigation into whether Google is really an equal payment provider and perhaps go about doing so, answering the questions you posed. (Currently at the moment, the investigation is being led by the US Department of Labor)
[However please refrain from the hypothesis that most of the women working are taking maternity leave. FYI, Google offers both paternity and maternity leave. Paternity leave is around 12 weeks.]
My point in mentioning those two scenarios is that we still have issues with gender gaps.
Oh I just re-read your post and noticed this.
Yeah, there are not many women in STEM as men. It probably starts really young - how girls can be conditioned from a young age, pointed to more "traditional things". I wonder if listening to lovesick, boycrazy lyrics in songs might have an effect on them.
Yeah, there are not many women in STEM as men. It probably starts really young - how girls can be conditioned from a young age, pointed to more "traditional things". I wonder if listening to lovesick, boycrazy lyrics in songs might have an effect on them.
I believe it was meant in a humorous spirit, however this statement unto itself is an extremely short sighted view about what being feminist entails and only further serves to create more ignorance on the issue and division between people.
If you want to go beyond the basic adages of 'stop hating on men' and 'I'm for equal pay' take some time to study the discussion from this panel of women and what they've accomplished for women both in the digital and real world.
[video=youtube;Jzcs4ti_bdI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jzcs4ti_bdI&ab_channel=SydneyOperaHouseTal ks%26Ideas[/video]
If you want to go beyond the basic adages of 'stop hating on men' and 'I'm for equal pay' take some time to study the discussion from this panel of women and what they've accomplished for women both in the digital and real world.
[video=youtube;Jzcs4ti_bdI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jzcs4ti_bdI&ab_channel=SydneyOperaHouseTal ks%26Ideas[/video]