God's freewill vs. Mankind's election
- Thread starter RickShafer
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well perhaps i've been reading commentators who are commenting on Strong's?
perhaps i've been reading into the text?
and perhaps i have just assumed that God gave me faith to believe.
i want to get this right.
here, you clearly say faith is a gift.
i do not disagree that people can reject the faith.
but you're still saying that faith is not a gift, and that it is a gift.
that's what i don't understand.
i'm looking for a clear and consistent definition of it [the source] - as either coming from God as a gift, or being something we exercise that is inherent in us.
anyways.
have to go for a bit....back later.
love z
perhaps i've been reading into the text?
and perhaps i have just assumed that God gave me faith to believe.
i want to get this right.
here, you clearly say faith is a gift.
i do not disagree that people can reject the faith.
but you're still saying that faith is not a gift, and that it is a gift.
that's what i don't understand.
i'm looking for a clear and consistent definition of it [the source] - as either coming from God as a gift, or being something we exercise that is inherent in us.
anyways.
have to go for a bit....back later.
love z
A
zone how could Jesus remark how great a person was who had it in action.
chide them if they didnt
tell them to have it towards God
and on and on, and they were not regenerate.
and the bible says all men are given it.
call it a gift...since it is latently....why ask more? why?
It obviously is something all men have.
thats why Eph2:8 is not talking about faith but that by faith and grace comes salvation no boasting because salvation is a gift.
chide them if they didnt
tell them to have it towards God
and on and on, and they were not regenerate.
and the bible says all men are given it.
call it a gift...since it is latently....why ask more? why?
It obviously is something all men have.
thats why Eph2:8 is not talking about faith but that by faith and grace comes salvation no boasting because salvation is a gift.
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E
lol Zone, I understand.
If you read my posts I Hope you see I have never declared faith (or the ability or thing we trust) is not a gift.
I am just saying in eph 2, THE Gift spoken of is not faith, but salvation..
in other words, Paul is not saying the gift of God is faith. he is saying the gift of God is salvation which was given because of our faith, not works.
as for pistis. I have logos bible software. I have 10 greek english lexicons or dictionaries I can chose from. From what I see, they All say the same thing in what I posted. Some just go into greater detail. and some go into less.
I could post them all if you like, or email them to you. I just don;t like to make long posts unless I have to, as you probably figured out.. lol
C
From the scripture Stephen used, a measure of faith has been given to all man and I believe it is so that we are without excuse. And just as the parable Jesus used, the growth of that seeding depends on how we grow it.
It is by God's gracious act that we are saved through (channel) faith (persuasion (what we hold to be true (conscience))), as opposed through Law (what we do of the flesh).
So, the question then is who persuades us? Is it not so that one is trusted when they have gained our confidence? So faith (persuasion of there must be a higher being (noun)) is given to all, but it is we who place that confidence (to believe (the verb)) and who builds that trust (faith (verb)) up when we began to trust more and more the one we placed that confidence in the first place.
It is by God's gracious act that we are saved through (channel) faith (persuasion (what we hold to be true (conscience))), as opposed through Law (what we do of the flesh).
So, the question then is who persuades us? Is it not so that one is trusted when they have gained our confidence? So faith (persuasion of there must be a higher being (noun)) is given to all, but it is we who place that confidence (to believe (the verb)) and who builds that trust (faith (verb)) up when we began to trust more and more the one we placed that confidence in the first place.
B
Well I am not against it... but how is faith a gift? If I flip a light switch and expect the light to come on that is operating faith, it has absolutely noting to do with my spiritual enlightenment, but is faith just the same?
The thing I come across is MANY people who are not saved discuss that they have "faith for this or That" and when this or that are of spirtual nature...like "I have faith God will do this or that" they are just making empty declarations of faith since they aren't saved and truly should have no expectation from God. Like "I have faith that everyone goes to heaven... God sees that we are good intended" well that faith isn't going to get them to heaven... slippery slope here.
The thing I come across is MANY people who are not saved discuss that they have "faith for this or That" and when this or that are of spirtual nature...like "I have faith God will do this or that" they are just making empty declarations of faith since they aren't saved and truly should have no expectation from God. Like "I have faith that everyone goes to heaven... God sees that we are good intended" well that faith isn't going to get them to heaven... slippery slope here.
A
19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.heb 10
C
From the scripture Stephen used, a measure of faith has been given to all man and I believe it is so that we are without excuse. And just as the parable Jesus used, the growth of that seeding depends on how we grow it.
It is by God's gracious act that we are saved through (channel) faith (persuasion (what we hold to be true (conscience))), as opposed through Law (what we do of the flesh). Salvation is of the heart, not the flesh.
So, the question then is who persuades us? Is it not so that one is trusted when they have gained our confidence? So faith (persuasion of there must be a higher being (noun)) is given to all, but it is we who place that confidence (to believe (the verb)) and who builds that trust (faith (verb)) up when we began to trust more and more the one we placed that confidence in the first place.