God's freewill vs. Mankind's election
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E
No. I am saying I do not believe you did not go from not knowing God or anything he did for you, and not contemplating your own sin and just condemnation one minute, to come to total faith the next.
You never knew your sin was against God? You never knew or understood Christ died? You never understood God created the heaven and the earth and all things? And you never understood the moral law before this? I am not buying it
It was a gift. He did everything you trusted in, Your not trusting in self in any way, so you can not boast of YOUR faith, but it is STILL YOUR FAITH IN GOD.
Of course you have never stopped having faith, Those truely born would never stop having faith, they are born of the spirit.
My strongs did not say this. Nor did the many far better greek english lexicons which I posted. Which is why I questioned it.
You never knew your sin was against God? You never knew or understood Christ died? You never understood God created the heaven and the earth and all things? And you never understood the moral law before this? I am not buying it
It was a gift. He did everything you trusted in, Your not trusting in self in any way, so you can not boast of YOUR faith, but it is STILL YOUR FAITH IN GOD.
Of course you have never stopped having faith, Those truely born would never stop having faith, they are born of the spirit.
My strongs did not say this. Nor did the many far better greek english lexicons which I posted. Which is why I questioned it.
E
The highlighted part shows where faith comes from. It comes from a trust God is a rewarder of those who seek him. If you do not trust God, then you will not trust him.
Faith is yours yes, you must chose. But it comes from God.
Think of it this way, If God did not do what he did, and promise what he promised. could you have faith?
I had faith in my parents because they gave me a reason to trust them.
Faith is yours yes, you must chose. But it comes from God.
Think of it this way, If God did not do what he did, and promise what he promised. could you have faith?
I had faith in my parents because they gave me a reason to trust them.
A
By me saying that we act by our own will. And by the way our whole Christian lives are to lived out
by faith as an act of our will. Im not saying that it was independent of grace=charis=divine influence.
Point being is Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith, synergy helps here if one can accept that.
synergy example:[SUP]6 [/SUP]I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.[SUP]7 [/SUP]So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
Romans 8:28
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And we know that ALL things work togather for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
ok get ready for this one:
James 2:21-24
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
there are many more Gods grace with mans will
together=sunergeo, sunergos= work together, cooperate, coadjuter, laborer togather
Faith is just taking God at His word if it were a gift...meaning zap then the bible is misleading
in regards to faith. Because faith is not inactive. examples:
Luke 18:8
[SUP]8 [/SUP]I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
Matthew 9:29
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.
Matthew 21:21
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
Mark 4:40
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?
Mark 11:22
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
Luke 8:25
[SUP]25 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Where is your faith? And they being afraid wondered, saying one to another, What manner of man is this! for he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him.
Luke 22:32
[SUP]32 [/SUP]But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted(Peter having faith unregenerate), strengthen thy brethren.
Romans 9:32
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Romans 10:8
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Romans 10:17
[SUP]17 [/SUP]So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
faith is something that has to be exercised. "by faith Moses" "by faith Enoch" etc
there is a matter then of synergy. "All things work together" without faith its impossible
to please God because we are workers together with Him
2 Cor 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
So every man has faith, but has to live by it, act on it, example: if thou will confess with thy mouth and
believe(faith) in thy heart............unto salvation.
Be it a gift or a grace matters little.
without it activated Eph 2:8 will not be a reality. Faith is operated by the will. A free one by the way.
by faith as an act of our will. Im not saying that it was independent of grace=charis=divine influence.
Point being is Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith, synergy helps here if one can accept that.
synergy example:[SUP]6 [/SUP]I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.[SUP]7 [/SUP]So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
Romans 8:28
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And we know that ALL things work togather for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
ok get ready for this one:
James 2:21-24
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
there are many more Gods grace with mans will
together=sunergeo, sunergos= work together, cooperate, coadjuter, laborer togather
Faith is just taking God at His word if it were a gift...meaning zap then the bible is misleading
in regards to faith. Because faith is not inactive. examples:
Luke 18:8
[SUP]8 [/SUP]I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
Matthew 9:29
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.
Matthew 21:21
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
Mark 4:40
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?
Mark 11:22
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
Luke 8:25
[SUP]25 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Where is your faith? And they being afraid wondered, saying one to another, What manner of man is this! for he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him.
Luke 22:32
[SUP]32 [/SUP]But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted(Peter having faith unregenerate), strengthen thy brethren.
Romans 9:32
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Romans 10:8
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Romans 10:17
[SUP]17 [/SUP]So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
faith is something that has to be exercised. "by faith Moses" "by faith Enoch" etc
there is a matter then of synergy. "All things work together" without faith its impossible
to please God because we are workers together with Him
2 Cor 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
So every man has faith, but has to live by it, act on it, example: if thou will confess with thy mouth and
believe(faith) in thy heart............unto salvation.
Be it a gift or a grace matters little.
without it activated Eph 2:8 will not be a reality. Faith is operated by the will. A free one by the way.
is this a TYPO EG? should it read:
"Sorry, I can not believe there was [ NOT ] a matter of time when you contemplated Gods truth, Took time to learn it and made a decision based on all the evidence."
i'll wait for clarification on the above before i respond again to this:
because above, you are clearly saying faith is a gift from God.
then above, it's not as clear.
but i hope to simplify it....at least, in my studies i am hoping to.
i'll go to the start of the thread and re-read.
"Sorry, I can not believe there was [ NOT ] a matter of time when you contemplated Gods truth, Took time to learn it and made a decision based on all the evidence."
i'll wait for clarification on the above before i respond again to this:
because above, you are clearly saying faith is a gift from God.
then above, it's not as clear.
but i hope to simplify it....at least, in my studies i am hoping to.
i'll go to the start of the thread and re-read.
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A
well, of course it is
and was.
what i am saying is that apparently my faith was not a gift from God.
and was.
what i am saying is that apparently my faith was not a gift from God.
heard of Jesus the Messiah. He may not have even heard of the word faith but
was told stretch forth thine arm....all he had was his will and no ability...poof new arm.
Thats faith. You willed to believe.
B
maybe you should go and re-read the posts? [h=2]faith[/h] [feyth] Show IPAnoun1.confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2.belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3.belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4.belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someoneconcerning honesty.
5.a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
here are 5 assorted uses...
that demonstrate FAITH is not a gift of God... because no God conscience is required to operate FAITH... this is the issue zone is studying. short version. want the long version... re-read the posts.
2.belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3.belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4.belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someoneconcerning honesty.
5.a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
here are 5 assorted uses...
that demonstrate FAITH is not a gift of God... because no God conscience is required to operate FAITH... this is the issue zone is studying. short version. want the long version... re-read the posts.
hi EG:
Ephesians 2
By Grace Through Faith
1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4Butb God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
is faith (pistis) in Ephesians 2 a direct gift from God?
that's what i'm asking at this point.
the writings i've read say no.
and the synergist idea says no.
but again, i'm going to go to older posts here.
i want to get this right.
it doesn't affect my personal conversion at all.
as i said, the worst i've done is give God the Glory for my faith.
and, if faith is not a gift from God, i need to make certain the text says it isn't...then apologize to those with whom i have disagreed over the matter, and stop saying the texts do say faith is a gift from God.
Ephesians 2
By Grace Through Faith
1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4Butb God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
is faith (pistis) in Ephesians 2 a direct gift from God?
that's what i'm asking at this point.
the writings i've read say no.
and the synergist idea says no.
but again, i'm going to go to older posts here.
i want to get this right.
it doesn't affect my personal conversion at all.
as i said, the worst i've done is give God the Glory for my faith.
and, if faith is not a gift from God, i need to make certain the text says it isn't...then apologize to those with whom i have disagreed over the matter, and stop saying the texts do say faith is a gift from God.
E
yes sorry. typo
It is. if 5 of us are in a room and someone comes up and offers us all the same gift. and 1/2 of us take it and half of us do not.. is the gift not belong to the one who took it.. and not to the one who did not? yet the same gift was offered to all..
Now tell me. If the gift was a science breakthrough which whoever took it would cure all sickness. Can the ones who took it boast that they took it. as apposed to those who lost out?
again, think of those who have mere belief in everything God said, yet are not saved.. how do we explain this?
It is. if 5 of us are in a room and someone comes up and offers us all the same gift. and 1/2 of us take it and half of us do not.. is the gift not belong to the one who took it.. and not to the one who did not? yet the same gift was offered to all..
Now tell me. If the gift was a science breakthrough which whoever took it would cure all sickness. Can the ones who took it boast that they took it. as apposed to those who lost out?
again, think of those who have mere belief in everything God said, yet are not saved.. how do we explain this?
A
Faith comes from the bible you read and the will to believe and the salvation is what your talking about
regeneration, your eyes were openned, you went from darkness to light. The Holyspirit was there doing the work.
But you HAD faith. Faith with Gods grace(the work of the Spirit influencing you) received the gift. Not good works
or obedience to the law.
regeneration, your eyes were openned, you went from darkness to light. The Holyspirit was there doing the work.
But you HAD faith. Faith with Gods grace(the work of the Spirit influencing you) received the gift. Not good works
or obedience to the law.
i'm fairly certain Ken won't mind me quoting him directly (here's hoping)....i apologize in advance if wrong ken.
here is the issue again...stated in another way.
Ken seems to be saying God gives us faith enough to know.
Ken...when you come on line, i wonder if you would help me see in the greek texts if the faith is actually given by God.
ty...any of the texts which speak of pistis - or faith - i just want to know if it is said to be a gift from God.
love zone.
here is the issue again...stated in another way.
Ken seems to be saying God gives us faith enough to know.
Ken...when you come on line, i wonder if you would help me see in the greek texts if the faith is actually given by God.
ty
...any of the texts which speak of pistis - or faith - i just want to know if it is said to be a gift from God.love zone.
E
In this context. No.
Salvation is the gift of God, it was given by faith, not because we worked to earn it. which is what Paul was trying to say.
By grace we are saved (the gift)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, [SUP]5 [/SUP]even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) (this gift)
vs 8 - 9 tells us how we got this gift. by faith, not works.
I would agree with them in the context of this passage.
again, I have no clue what they believe, I am sure if I studied synergism and monergism I would find things from both I agree with, and both I disagree with.. which is why I stay away from this type of discussion
I give him ALL the credit for my salvation also. I can't boast of anything, because God did all the work.
Thats fine. Study Study Study,, we all should study..lol
But hope you see where I am coming from now if nothing else. even if you decide to not agree.
Salvation is the gift of God, it was given by faith, not because we worked to earn it. which is what Paul was trying to say.
By grace we are saved (the gift)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, [SUP]5 [/SUP]even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) (this gift)
vs 8 - 9 tells us how we got this gift. by faith, not works.
I would agree with them in the context of this passage.
again, I have no clue what they believe, I am sure if I studied synergism and monergism I would find things from both I agree with, and both I disagree with.. which is why I stay away from this type of discussion
I give him ALL the credit for my salvation also. I can't boast of anything, because God did all the work.
Thats fine. Study Study Study,, we all should study..lol
But hope you see where I am coming from now if nothing else. even if you decide to not agree.
k. again, another member i'm reasonably certain wouldn't mind my quoting his post directly, but to be safe i will just use the bit here.
this seems to say faith is not a gift.
it says your faith.
this lines up with the baptist exegete.
who says faith is not a gift from God.
so.....enough of a cross-section to look at what the issue is (for me - maybe for others).
i might find a few other examples that will help frame the question and possibly provide the answer.
if i am interrupting anyone's convo, please disregard - skip over my stuff....i'm just fumbling at this point.
this seems to say faith is not a gift.
it says your faith.
this lines up with the baptist exegete.
who says faith is not a gift from God.
so.....enough of a cross-section to look at what the issue is (for me - maybe for others).
i might find a few other examples that will help frame the question and possibly provide the answer.
if i am interrupting anyone's convo, please disregard - skip over my stuff....i'm just fumbling at this point.
C
Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but how can faith come from God and yet, we trusted our parents because they gave us reason to believe?
Also, if you do not mind,
If faith (not speaking about the measure of faith which all is given as a testimony of no one having an excuse) comes from God at His will, would He not be selective in whom shall be saved and whom He will judge?
If faith is a product given to you, then 'the reason to trust' has no true value, seeing that it has been handed to one.
Also, if you do not mind,
If faith (not speaking about the measure of faith which all is given as a testimony of no one having an excuse) comes from God at His will, would He not be selective in whom shall be saved and whom He will judge?
If faith is a product given to you, then 'the reason to trust' has no true value, seeing that it has been handed to one.