God's freewill vs. Mankind's election

[zone]

I am not going to respond to this long of a post. Can you shorten it up??

and where do you get your defnitions?

πίστις, -εως, ἡ, (πείθω [q. v.]), fr. [Hes., Theogn., Pind.], Aeschyl., Hdt. down; Sept. for אֱמוּנָה, several times for אֱמֶת and אֲמָנָה; faith; i. e.
1. conviction of the truth of anything, belief, (Plat., Polyb., Joseph., Plut.; θαυμάσια καὶ μείζω πίστεως, Diod. 1, 86); in the N. T. of a conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervor born of faith and conjoined with u: Heb. 11:1 (where πίστις is called ἐλπιζομένων ὑπόστασες, πραγμάτων ἔλεγχος οὐ βλεπομένων); opp. to εἶδος, 2 Co. 5:7; joined with ἀγάπη and ἐλπίς, 1 Co. 13:13.


Thayer, J. H. (1889). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Being Grimm's Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti (512–513). New York: Harper & Brothers.

πίστις, ἡ, gen. εως: dat. πίστει, Ion. πίστῑ: Ion. nom. and acc. pl. πίστῑς; dat. πίστισι: (πείθομαι):—trust in others, faith, Lat. fides, fiducia, Hes., Theogn., Att.; c. gen. pers. faith or belief in one, Eur.:—generally, persuasion of a thing, confidence, assurance, Pind., Att.
2. good faith, trustworthiness, faithfulness, honesty, Lat. fides, Theogn., Hdt., Att.
3. in a commercial sense, credit, trust, πίστις τοσούτων χρημάτων ἐστί μοι παρά τινι I have credit for so much money with him, Dem.; εἰς πίστιν διδόναι τί τινι Id.
4. in Theol. faith, belief, as opp. to sight and knowledge, N.T.
II. that which gives confidence: hence,
1. an assurance, pledge of good faith, warrant, guarantee, Soph., Eur.; πίστιν καὶ ὅρκια ποιεῖσθαι to make a treaty by exchange of assurances and oaths, Hdt.; οὔτε π. οὔθʼ ὅρκος μένει Ar.; πίστιν διδόναι to give assurances, Hdt.; διδόναι καὶ λαμβάνειν to interchange them, Xen.:—of an oath, θεῶν πίστεις ὀμνύναι Thuc.; πίστιν ἐπιτιθέναι or προστιθέναι τινί Dem.:—φόβων π. an assurance against fears, Eur.
2. a means of persuasion, an argument, proof, such as used by orators, Plat., etc.


Liddell, H. (1996). A lexicon: Abridged from Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English lexicon (641). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.



πίστις 4102
In accordance with its common NT usage, πίστις is used of “faith,” “confidence” in a person in such passages as P Strass I. 4138 (c. A.D. 250), when in a legal process a witness is charged—ὡς πρεσβύτης καὶ πίστεως ἄξιος εἰπὲ ἃ οἶδας ἐν τῷ πρά[γματ]ι̣, and P Oxy XIV. 162714 (A.D. 342) διὰ τὴν περὶ ἡμᾶς μετριότητα καὶ πίστις (l. πίστιν), “owing to your clemency to us and confidence in us” (Edd.). In P Lond 23311 (A.D. 345) (= II. p. 273, Chrest. I. p. 68) the editor translates τ̣ῇ σῇ πίστ(ε)ι as apparently = “at your discretion” or “on your own credit.”


Moulton, J. H., & Milligan, G. (1930). The vocabulary of the Greek Testament (515). London: Hodder and Stoughton.

LOL!
mine's a teeny bit longer than yours?
LOL EG!

can you just highlight his part:

of a conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervor born of faith and conjoined with u

so you clearly stating faith is not a gift, right EG?

and what's this:

guarantee, Soph., Eur.; πίστιν καὶ ὅρκια ποιεῖσθαι to make a treaty by exchange of assurances and oaths, Hdt.; οὔτε π. οὔθʼ ὅρκος μένει Ar.; πίστιν διδόναι to give assurances, Hdt.; διδόναι καὶ λαμβάνειν to interchange them, Xen.:—of an oath, θεῶν πίστεις ὀμνύναι Thuc.; πίστιν ἐπιτιθέναι or προστιθέναι τινί Dem.:—φόβων π. an assurance against fears, Eur.

is the covenant cut with Abraham an exchange of assurances and oaths?
he was asleep!
God cut the Covenant Himself!
no exchange!

Christ died on the Cross in our place - did we agree beforehand that if He did that we would have faith in Him?

 

[zone]

what are you afraid? Your not able to think for yourself?? I am trying to get you to think. to see where your coming from.

ditto.
so tell me plainly what difference between two wretched sinners (not a pharisee) Jim and Dan is.
i'm not afraid.

i'm a monergist.
explain to me where i am getting it wrong.

(avoid saying things like afraid to think for myself, okay? unless you feel a burning need to....i COULD say the same about you, but so far i haven't)
love you

 

[Abiding]

Originally Posted by tribesman

Yes and its beyond me why some people yet insist, contrary to this knowledge, that their salvation hangs upon their "decision" to "choose the right" , while still unregenerate.



Can you explain what the purpose was that God talked to Cain?
Or Why but most importantly how did Adam sin?
And why you ignore questions, yet ask them?

 

[zone]

I am not going to respond to this long of a post. Can you shorten it up??

this is not the first time you've said this to me EG.
last time it was you weren't even going to read it.
yet you write extensively and i read every word.

if you're not going to bother reading what i post in response to you in a discussion i won't post.
we'll just keep it light.

that's better anyhow.
love you bud

 

[eternally-gratefull]

LOL!
mine's a teeny bit longer than yours?

Your is quite a bit larger actually

LOL EG!

can you just highlight his part:

of a conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervor born of faith and conjoined with u

so you clearly stating faith is not a gift, right EG?

How do we get faith? A conviction or belief. How are we convicted. and given assurance. But trust in ourself or trust in God.

Is the gospel (what we place our faith in) not a gift?? How could we have faith if God did not do the work and not make the promise? Can you answer this?

and what's this:

guarantee, Soph., Eur.; πίστιν καὶ ὅρκια ποιεῖσθαι to make a treaty by exchange of assurances and oaths, Hdt.; οὔτε π. οὔθʼ ὅρκος μένει Ar.; πίστιν διδόναι to give assurances, Hdt.; διδόναι καὶ λαμβάνειν to interchange them, Xen.:—of an oath, θεῶν πίστεις ὀμνύναι Thuc.; πίστιν ἐπιτιθέναι or προστιθέναι τινί Dem.:—φόβων π. an assurance against fears, Eur.

It is both sides trusting the others oaths.. Where did this trust come from??

is the covenant cut with Abraham an exchange of assurances and oaths?
he was asleep!
God cut the Covenant Himself!
no exchange!

What does this have to do with me trusting Christ or not trusting Christ.

An you just contradicted yourself. That same covenant is the same covenant which gives Israel the land of canaan, Which you claim is no longer in effect because Isreal did not do their part..

so which is it??

Christ died on the Cross in our place - did we agree beforehand that if He did that we would have faith in Him?

How could I? He died before I was born. this question makes no sense.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

ditto.
so tell me plainly what difference between two wretched sinners (not a pharisee) Jim and Dan is.
i'm not afraid.

i'm a monergist.
explain to me where i am getting it wrong.

(avoid saying things like afraid to think for myself, okay? unless you feel a burning need to....i COULD say the same about you, but so far i haven't)
love you

1. I have no idea what monergism is, Nor do I care to know
2. I am here discussing how we came to faith. not what monergism is.
3. If both men know they are rightly judged, And yet only repented. Why did one repent and one not?

Both romans 1 and eph 4 tells us..

Also. the one who did not repent. He did have faith, but what was his or her faith in? (there are at least two possibilities here if this helps)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

this is not the first time you've said this to me EG.
last time it was you weren't even going to read it.
yet you write extensively and i read every word.

if you're not going to bother reading what i post in response to you in a discussion i won't post.
we'll just keep it light.

that's better anyhow.
love you bud

Or maybe I am not as fast as you? by the time I read and responded to that whole post. I would have missed two pages of posts and be so far behind I would have to catch up..

What is wrong with making small responses. so I can just respond to parts?

 

[Abiding]

If regeneration comes before faith. What good is faith?

 

[Abiding]

If monergists knew what faith was they would then understand a couple things.
1 how a unregenerate can be justified and saved
2 How God can still be sovereign

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If regeneration comes before faith. What good is faith?

hmm. Good question. it would not be any good. Because we would already be saved.. so why bother having faith. it would do no good.

 

[Abiding]

The spin in eph 2:8 is needed for limited atonement.

But the thing is the way they contextualize faith there and surely its not in the greater context for example

Ephesians 1:12-13


[SUP]12 [/SUP]That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

which has time marks which are ignored, faith isnt even used in its fuller meaning for example

Hebrews 11:6


[SUP]6 [/SUP]But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

 

[Abiding]

[h=2]eis·e·ge·sis[/h] [ahy-si-jee-sis] Show IPA
noun, plural eis·e·ge·ses [-seez] Show IPA .an interpretation, especially of Scripture, that expresses the interpreter's own ideas, bias, or the like,rather than the meaning of the text.

A commited monergists must do this.

 

[Abiding]

EG i dont like compound words either.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The spin in eph 2:8 is needed for limited atonement.

But the thing is the way they contextualize faith there and surely its not in the greater context for example

Ephesians 1:12-13


[SUP]12 [/SUP]That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

which has time marks which are ignored, faith isnt even used in its fuller meaning for example

Hebrews 11:6


[SUP]6 [/SUP]But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

I like this..

we have faith after we hear the word of truth. and it is after this we are sealed with the spirit. (regeneration) not before.

nothing about regeneration first.

also in the second. we must believe he is God before we have faith.

Many get to the believe. but they do not get to the faith part..

 

[Abiding]

I like this..

we have faith after we hear the word of truth. and it is after this we are sealed with the spirit. (regeneration) not before.

nothing about regeneration first.

also in the second. we must believe he is God before we have faith.

Many get to the believe. but they do not get to the faith part..

Yes and faith comes by hearing the Word. The gospel itself is the power of God unto belief.
Choice is necessary.

Jesus said the difference is in a persons heart. They can and do close their ears and eyes
otherwise they would hear and see and He would save them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes and faith comes by hearing the Word. The gospel itself is the power of God unto belief.
Choice is necessary.

Jesus said the difference is in a persons heart. They can and do close their ears and eyes
otherwise they hear and see and He would save them.

this is exactly what romans 1 and eph 4 says

 

[BarlyGurl]

...agreed repentance involves 'work'...and this: "requires the intellect and reasoning power before the will engages" < yup.

can you expand on this at all? i know this is just discussion...but me thinks you are on to something. I will try, I have touched on the principals in other threads... I will try to articulate a fuller response now.

since the will is not engaged [inclined?] naturally toward God;
the intellect and reasoning power is needed before the will engages;
and opportunity to repent is gift;

is the intellect and reasoning power engaged [inclined?] naturally toward God? I want to make a distinction here. The intellect and reasoning power IS naturally inclined toward a god, but not THE GOD. The scripture reveals this in a myriad of ways... 1) we are created in the image of God, Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." God has (supreme) intellect, reasoning power and freewill... free will in that God is only limited by the constrains he has put on himself.. sometimes God's "hands are tied" but that is due to his supreme TRUTH character that he not ever contradict himself or lie. Adam had free will... Genesis 3:[SUP]17 [/SUP]To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it, What was his sin? Doing what eve said instead of doing what God said... that is a CHOICE... and God makes that very clear in his chastening of Adam. So I am not sure how anyone can conclude that man is not born with "freewill" or CHOICE POWERS. Gen4:[SUP]6 [/SUP]Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? [SUP]7 [/SUP]If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.” More of God's words instructing Cain how to use his Choice Power... did Cain obey God?...nope.This is the premiss of SELF as god.
Edodus 30:"You shall have no other gods before me. If man had no natural inclination (as in devoid of any god conscious) toward God there would be no need for him to instruct against other gods like self, totems, magic, shamanism, doornobs, higher powers... get it? God isn't an egomaniac... he is pointing the people toward reconciliatin with him... thru all time until Christ on the Cross. Because Adam "CHOSE" to ignore/reject/disobey God... his spirit became separated from God (spiritually dead) thru out the ages man has sought by an assortment of ways (some more unconscionable than others) to satisfy the dead spirit... while God has been leading mankind in this epoch journey to reconcile us to HIMSELF thru the second Adam which is Jesus and give us a marvelous GIFT of salvation (live spirit) if we will choose to recieve it. GOD wills ALL MANKIND be saved... but not all mankind will CHOOSE to recieve salvation... because it comes with TERMS... GOD's terms not man's terms. We know there is a natural inclinaton to a god conscious because the bible says all creation testifies of Him
SO there is a natural inclination toward a god in all mankind... but not THE GOD. This is why the bible teaches there is only one way... for eons man has been devising his own ways.

Hope this helps fill out what I was saying.

 

[zone]

[h=2]eis·e·ge·sis[/h] [ahy-si-jee-sis] Show IPA
noun, plural eis·e·ge·ses [-seez] Show IPA .an interpretation, especially of Scripture, that expresses the interpreter's own ideas, bias, or the like,rather than the meaning of the text.

A commited monergists must do this.

hmmm...okay Abiding.
since i'm a committed monergist, i hope you'll be able to do enough exegesis to show me the error of my ways.

 

[zone]

The spin in eph 2:8 is needed for limited atonement.

But the thing is the way they contextualize faith there and surely its not in the greater context for example

Ephesians 1:12-13


[SUP]12 [/SUP]That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

which has time marks which are ignored, faith isnt even used in its fuller meaning for example

Hebrews 11:6


[SUP]6 [/SUP]But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Hi Abiding
i'm a Lutheran.
we don't subscribe to Limited Atonement.
no spin on Eph. from us for that... but maybe i'll see more as i go.

i wonder if synergists would be kind enough to do a thread dedicated strictly to synergism debunking monergism (this is not a calvinist issue - please do NOT use calvinism - NO TULIP).

hopefully any monergists, including myself will refrain from debating...though it will be helpful if we can ask questions for clarification.

i would like that very much - since i might be very wrong.
and i want to align with God completely.

love you
Kath

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi Abiding
i'm a Lutheran.
we don't subscribe to Limited Atonement.
no spin on Eph. from us for that... but maybe i'll see more as i go.

i wonder if synergists would be kind enough to do a thread dedicated strictly to synergism debunking monergism (this is not a calvinist issue - please do NOT use calvinism - NO TULIP).

hopefully any monergists, including myself will refrain from debating...though it will be helpful if we can ask questions for clarification.

i would like that very much - since i might be very wrong.
and i want to align with God completely.

love you
Kath

I thought this was a freewill vs election thread.

Did not know it turned into a monergism vs synergism thread..