God's freewill vs. Mankind's election

[PS]

(My response in Red Bible in blue)

Im sure you cant read what you just wrote and see how
contradicting it is Rick.
Nothing contradicts itself. It is your viewpoint that makes it seem so.

Salvation is a gift...thats what the no boasting is about.
Paul said the faith was what we weren't to boast about :
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast. The subject is how we are saved, - by grace through faith.
Not the state of being saved itself, but how it happens. Some would boast of their faith as if it
was their ability. Many do today. This is what Paul was addressing.

Just to make the comment that my faith in Doctors is nothing to boast about and neither is my faith in the Great Physician anything to boast about either, rather it is an acknowledgement of my own inadequacy and the need to ask for help.

 

[tribesman]

I would disagree. Moses did this when he chose to kill an Egyptian. long before hs calling;

Moses was called even before that. Even when his mother said he was "goodly child" and built him an "ark"

 

[eternally-gratefull]

*sighs* I suggest you climb down from the fence and do some serious studying on monergism instead of subtly mocking it.

why study this? why not just study the word of God and see what it says. Studying doctrines of men does not help us other than know what they believe, it will not help us to find truth.

 

[tribesman]

why study this? why not just study the word of God and see what it says. Studying doctrines of men does not help us other than know what they believe, it will not help us to find truth.

It is scriptural, you should study it too. Should you yet happen not to agree with it then at least you know more about it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Moses was called even before that. Even when his mother said he was "goodly child" and built him an "ark"

That does not matter. Moses still chose to murder instead of excepting his riches and power.

He still chose to give it all up for his people, and eventually for God.

 

[tribesman]

That does not matter. Moses still chose to murder instead of excepting his riches and power.

He still chose to give it all up for his people, and eventually for God.

Was Moses not chosen from the beginning?

Do you believe he was regenerate or unregenerate when he did these things?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It is scriptural, you should study it too.

Why? Who cares what people believed back then. should we not care what scripture says?

doing stuff like that gets us in trouble. That is why arminians fight OSAS, not because they are fighting truth, they are fighting a doctrine, so they must fight it all..

Lets get away from this, and just study the word.. then we can find truth..

There are many doctrines which I believe part of and disagree with part of.. (like calvanism vs arminianism) but it does not make me either one..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Was Moses not chosen from the beginning?

Do you believe he was regenerate or unregenerate when he did these things?

I do not think scripture really tells us.. and would not want to speculate. the only fact we have is Moses chose of his own free will to do those things..

 

[Abiding]

(My response in Red Bible in blue)

Im sure you cant read what you just wrote and see how
contradicting it is Rick.
Nothing contradicts itself. It is your viewpoint that makes it seem so.

Salvation is a gift...thats what the no boasting is about.
Paul said the faith was what we weren't to boast about :
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast. The subject is how we are saved, - by grace through faith.
Not the state of being saved itself, but how it happens. Some would boast of their faith as if it
was their ability. Many do today. This is what Paul was addressing.

Im afraid that loses the context. "Not of works" as far as salvation is the point. Salvation is the subject in view.
The kindness of God through Christ is the "grace" and "faith" is whats required.

Yes go reread your post #241 its riddled with contradiction. Its not my viewpoint.

Well sure some may boast of their faith, others i suppose could boast of their grace, that doesnt
change the intent of the passage, which is in a very large context which includes:


[SUP]12 [/SUP]That we should be to the praise of his glory, who "first" trusted in Christ.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]In whom ye also trusted, "after" that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also "after" that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


notice the words "after" "ye were sealed"

verses 8-9 build on that not the other way around

 

[tribesman]

Why? Who cares what people believed back then. should we not care what scripture says?

doing stuff like that gets us in trouble. That is why arminians fight OSAS, not because they are fighting truth, they are fighting a doctrine, so they must fight it all..

Lets get away from this, and just study the word.. then we can find truth..

There are many doctrines which I believe part of and disagree with part of.. (like calvanism vs arminianism) but it does not make me either one..

I edited that post and added: Should you yet happen not to agree with it then at least you know more about it.

You were brought up in a calvinist home, weren't you? Correct me if wrong, but that's what I recall. So maybe you don't feel you have the greatest need for studying monergism, since you might know the basics well. Not sure, but this is a general principle: you study up on the matter you wish to discuss. There is no contradiction to this and to always study the Word. OK?

Other than that, it's a straw man rhetoric you used. Even your tradition you're into now consists of men who make their interpretations. Much of their sources surely comes from other men, probably some of these sources are even calvinists.

What I find funny are all those fence sitters who just like to look at beliefs and doctrines from the outside, never really taking a firm or decisive stand for anything, thinking theology is like a smorgasbord where one can pick and choose after taste. Or that it really doesn't matter...they have their "personal relation" which feels good, so why care about what the father's in the faith fought for, why care about doctrine too much. See? That's the attitude especially among non-denoms.

Behind every belief, teaching and doctrine there is a succession and history (even for those who claim otherwise). If you want to seriously discuss such at least it should be normal and rational to get a basic and foundational understanding of same. Like you said you've studied RC doctrine, if I recall it right. Otherwise it's more like subjective opinions, our out of the blue opinions. That's all bro.

 

[tribesman]

I do not think scripture really tells us.. and would not want to speculate. the only fact we have is Moses chose of his own free will to do those things..

Did Moses chose to be chosen and called of his own free will?

 

[Abiding]

*sighs* I suggest you climb down from the fence and do some serious studying on monergism instead of subtly mocking it.

What fence? and what mocking? and whos being subtle?
I may very well have studied it more than you. but i shouldnt brag right?

 

[tribesman]

What fence? and what mocking? and whos being subtle?
I may very well have studied it more than you. but i shouldnt brag right?

Go on as you wish and try to joke away serious stuffs...honesty should not be too much to ask for.

 

[Abiding]

Go on as you wish and try to joke away serious stuffs...honesty should not be too much to ask for.

Tribesman, im not appreciating your tactic of accusing me of fence sitting, of joking, or not being serious.
Neither am i fond of you saying that me or others have lacking in studying, be it monergism or something else.
Its you with the problem as i see it. This is a discussion forum. Maybe stop with innuendos for a moment and
discuss.

If i want to be candid or what ever, what is that to you?

 

[tribesman]

[SUP]12 [/SUP]That we should be to the praise of his glory, who "first" trusted in Christ.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]In whom ye also trusted, "after" that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also "after" that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


notice the words "after" "ye were sealed"

verses 8-9 build on that not the other way around

And these verses build upon verses 3-7. (In Eph.1).

And again, from next chapter:

Eph.2

[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

[zone]

That's God's foreknowledge, He knew who would believe and repent of their sins of their own free will.

so we are gods?
our decision caused the Big God to do OUR WILL?

ask Abiding to tell you about God's Character - how He can not possibly learn something He did not already know.
He has to rehearse creation to find out who will love Him?

this corridors of time things is awful.

 

[Abiding]

To answer a question not asked me. Of coarse Moses was chosen. Was he regenerated before he had faith?
Why all the providence? Why 40 years in the background? Why a burning bush?

Maybe someone who asked the question should show proof one way or another? Possibly with scripture.

 

[zone]

is repentance a gift or a work?

both.
we got the gift, and we do the work (it's painful) of unpacking it.
the GIFT is finding out how badly we need to be forgiven.

 

[zone]

We need to come to our Heavenly Father like the children we are repenting of our sins and throw ourselves on His redeeming mercy for He has paid the price in our room and stead.

dontcha have to know Who the Father is first?

Matthew 11:27
"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

 

[tribesman]

both.
we got the gift, and we do the work (it's painful) of unpacking it.
the GIFT is finding out how badly we need to be forgiven.

Amen. That's more like it.

The fresh air of Bible truth!