God's freewill vs. Mankind's election

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RickShafer said:
I already have addressed Romans 9.
Read my commentary I posted on it two times earlier in this thread.
(I posted the whole chapter with my commentary in red.)
I'd love to discuss it as it relates to souls, (and not supposed nations).
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We can't discuss it as it applies to souls. because there is nothing in the passage which applies to souls. It is not in the context.

if it is not in context. and not in the passage why would I want to twist what Paul said and make it mean something else?


This thread is about who chooses who; and not how God chooses nations.
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Then you can;t Use romans 9 as your base scripture. because romans 9 is about God choosing one nation over others. Not about How God chooses people.
The very fact Israel didn't follow Him is proof enough.
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Which was the same argument being used back then. And why Paul wrote Romans 9 to prove God did not make a mistake choosing Israel.
 
The words of the chapter refute your argument that it was - "to show God chose Israel".
Israel sought God not by faith; the chapter points that out.

(Please read) :
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
[SUP]25 [/SUP]As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. - (Who is this addressing E.G? Israel or the church?)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. - (Again....the ekklesia, and not the physical nation of Israel)
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: - (How much more plain can it be,.....that Paul is talking about believers and not the physical nation?)
[SUP]28 [/SUP]For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
[SUP]33 [/SUP]As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

The very words of the Apostle refute your contention - that Romans 9 was written to show God chose the physical nation
of Israel. He is clearly addressing those of the household of faith - (Who's faith is a gift from God - lest any man should boast)
 
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RickShafer said:
The words of the chapter refute your argument that it was - "to show God chose Israel". Israel sought God not by faith; the chapter points that out. (Please read) : [SUP]23 [/SUP]And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, [SUP]24 [/SUP]Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? [SUP]25 [/SUP]As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. - (Who is this addressing E.G? Israel or the church?) [SUP]26 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. - (Again....the ekklesia, and not the physical nation of Israel) [SUP]27 [/SUP]Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: - (How much more plain can it be,.....that Paul is talking about believers and not the physical nation?) [SUP]28 [/SUP]For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. [SUP]29 [/SUP]And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. [SUP]30 [/SUP]What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. [SUP]31 [/SUP]But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. [SUP]32 [/SUP]Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; [SUP]33 [/SUP]As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. The very words of the Apostle refute your contention - that Romans 9 was written to show God chose the physical nation of Israel. He is clearly addressing those of the household of faith - (Who's faith is a gift from God - lest any man should boast)
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rom 6 gives us context.

did God make a mistake?

doing what. the first 5 verses tell us, Chosing Isreal

Are you still going to argue induviduals and not nations? Even though scripture says point blank nations? nations?
 
eternally-gratefull said:
rom 6 gives us context.

did God make a mistake?

doing what. the first 5 verses tell us, Chosing Isreal

Are you still going to argue induviduals and not nations? Even though scripture says point blank nations? nations?
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He cant or his tulip will wilt:(
 
If there is ONE thing that the New Testament-(written in His own blood) has shown,
it is that God has made the covenant personal.
What was a covenant with a physical nation has now been made a covenant with singular souls.
The whole of the N.T. preaches this, - (especially Romans 8).
 
RickShafer said:
If there is ONE thing that the New Testament-(written in His own blood) has shown,
it is that God has made the covenant personal.
What was a covenant with a physical nation has now been made a covenant with singular souls.
The whole of the N.T. preaches this, - (especially Romans 8).
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I agree with you there Rick providing you don't add to, take away, or deviate from it. God bless.
 
PS, we are individuals with minds.
Who is to say we are not adding to or taking away from it?
The scripture must be rightly divided; and this is impossible without the continual leading of the Holy Spirit;
- - - - and even then many great theologians disagreed on important matters of faith.
Having said that, not everyone who ever lived is saved. - You must read the entirety of the Bible and see that.
The assertion that 'all souls go to heaven' is new to the faith and therefore mistaken.
Just read the books in their entirety.
 
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RickShafer said:
PS, we are individuals with minds.
Who is to say we are not adding to or taking away from it?
The scripture must be rightly divided; and this is impossible without the continual leading of the Holy Spirit;
- - - - and even then many great theologians disagreed on important matters of faith.
Having said that, not everyone who ever lived is saved. - You must read the entirety of the Bible and see that.
The assertion that 'all souls go to heaven' is new to the faith and therefore mistaken.
Just read the books in their entirety.
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I'm ahead of you Rick regarding taking the entirety of the Bible into consideration, neither do I believe all souls go to heaven only those who believe and accept the free gift which reduces the number of the 'saved' enormously. However Salvation is available to all who seek and believe in faith accepting. There is a big difference.

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...only-giving-false-security-23.html#post906269
 
Is Once Saved Always Saved True? Or is It Only Giving False Security?

There is false security on both sides.
One says to work for it until YOU achieve it or you will surely be damned.
The other says only to recite the sinners prayer and you can't be lost.
Both are wrong.
Repentance is a matter of the heart(soul).
Being born is painful, .....being born again is even more painful;
but the work is the Lord's. He is wholly sufficient to bring us through it, (and even more so).
His tender mercies are new every morning, and great is His faithfulness!
We think we have faith, His faithfulness eclipses ours.
It is His Love that leads His own through the lion's den, through the firey furnace;
in the face of kings - to witness in the face of spiritual lions.
Their iron teeth(fascism) and brass claws(military) are no match for His great Grace and Love.
Jesus Christ. King of Kings. Yesterday, today, and forever.
Amen!
 
RickShafer said:
Is Once Saved Always Saved True? Or is It Only Giving False Security?

There is false security on both sides.
One says to work for it until YOU achieve it or you will surely be damned.
The other says only to recite the sinners prayer and you can't be lost.
Both are wrong.
Repentance is a matter of the heart(soul).
Being born is painful, .....being born again is even more painful;
but the work is the Lord's. He is wholly sufficient to bring us through it, (and even more so).
His tender mercies are new every morning, and great is His faithfulness!
We think we have faith, His faithfulness eclipses ours.
It is His Love that leads His own through the lion's den, through the firey furnace;
in the face of kings - to witness in the face of spiritual lions.
Their iron teeth(fascism) and brass claws(military) are no match for His great Grace and Love.
Jesus Christ. King of Kings. Yesterday, today, and forever.
Amen!
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Yes, repentance is vitally important, but don't some consider this to be works?
 
Does the Word of God say we're 'quite sick' in our trespasses and sins?
That we're pretty ill, but do have the ability to incline our own will toward Him?

Martin Luther said something to this effect: (sorry, I don't have the book with me and wouldn't wake my husband for the world this morning :) )

paraphrased quote--"common grammarians and every little schoolboy in the street know that verbs of the imperative mood signify what ought to be done and nothing else. What can be done by man is signified by verbs of the indicative mood."

This is laughable to us, but such is the importance of knowing Hebrew, and especially Greek to the believer in rightly dividing the Word of God.
We see things like 'choose you this day whom you will serve' and assume that means we have the power to do what we are told...in other words, what we ought to do.

If God does not will that we incline toward holiness, and Himself, it cannot be done (John 6:44). We are dead, not merely sick, in sin before God works.
Not a proponent of the tulip complete, but I am a monergist. I wonder if the main trouble is that of a feeling of personal responsibility? We certainly are wholly responsible for our sin and rebellion.
But choosing Him?

2 Tim:25
with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth

Phil. 1:29
For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake

Matt. 16:16-17
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven

Acts 13:48
When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Finally, what shall we do with Heb. 12:2?

Is Christ the Author of our faith?
Or are we?
 
It really does all go back to first cause.

Faith is the evidence of the new birth, not the cause of it. :)
 
PS said:
Yes, repentance is vitally important, but don't some consider this to be works?
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It is, in point of fact, the Work of God Himself.
We think that because we make choices, we have 'free will' toward God.
The Bible says something completely different to that.


The names of the redeemed were written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world! (Rev. 17:8)
 
psychomom said:
It is, in point of fact, the Work of God Himself.
We think that because we make choices, we have 'free will' toward God.
The Bible says something completely different to that.


The names of the redeemed were written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world! (Rev. 17:8)
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That's God's foreknowledge, He knew who would believe and repent of their sins of their own free will.
 
schoolofyoungprophet said:
is repentance a gift or a work?
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The evidence of our love for our children is the 'works' that we do. Works are things that can be seen and touched but believing in God, repenting of our sin and having love for God and family is about a heartfelt loving relationship.

Matthew 25:31-46
The Sheep and the Goats

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
 
PS said : "The evidence of our love for our children is the 'works' that we do. Works are things that can be seen and touched but believing in God, repenting of our sin and having love for God and family is about a heartfelt loving relationship."

Exactly, who's the Father in the relationship? Us or God?
 
RickShafer said:
PS said : "The evidence of our love for our children is the 'works' that we do. Works are things that can be seen and touched but believing in God, repenting of our sin and having love for God and family is about a heartfelt loving relationship."

Exactly, who's the Father in the relationship? Us or God?
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We need to come to our Heavenly Father like the children we are repenting of our sins and throw ourselves on His redeeming mercy for He has paid the price in our room and stead.
 
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