Replacement theology? Yes or No.

[cv5]

Zionists call people "antisemitic" when they are anti- zionist.
They weaken the word because it is useful for their politics.
The result is that people become indifferent to being called by that name.
That is also a problem for Jews, because real antisemitism actually exists.
There are people who identify themselves as Nazis and call for the killing of Jews.
I have not met any of them on this forum.

Would you care to attempt to exegete these passages?
We would love to hear your......opinion.
You know, just the standard stuff: when, where, who, why. Stuff like that.
Thanks for your attention to this matter.

Mat 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, ***in the regeneration*** when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luk 22:30
That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

[Gpianolf]

The preacher is Dr James Tour. He is a brilliant scientist, a fervent evangelist and knowledgeable about Israel's place in God's plan and purpose. It is quite long, but well worth hearing. Replacement people don't listen. You will have to change your minds if you do.

Usually, this debate arises when people compare Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology. I find I can't subscribe to either one fully. There's a healthy middle ground and, if I remember correctly, it's called Progressive Covenantalism. We, as Gentiles, do not replace Israel, but not all Jews are going to heaven either. Belief in Christ is the only prerequisite to entering Heaven, no questions asked. But there aren't two peoples. Since we are grafted in, we are all one branch. So in the end, there are only parts of those two branches of theology that get it right, in my opinion.

 

[Beekeeper]

Would you care to attempt to exegete these passages?
We would love to hear your......opinion.
You know, just the standard stuff: when, where, who, why. Stuff like that.
Thanks for your attention to this matter.

Mat 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, ***in the regeneration*** when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luk 22:30
That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

I think you would already understand my position on that.
The House of Israel continues under it's king.
The gospel is offered to the natural branches, and God knows who will receive it.
God also knows who will not.

Hebrews 6:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.):

So you see now that the Israel of God is an entirely different nation than the one you have imagined.

 

[cv5]

I think you would already understand my position on that.
The House of Israel continues under it's king.
The gospel is offered to the natural branches, and God knows who will receive it.
God also knows who will not.

Hebrews 6:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.):

So you see now that the Israel of God is an entirely different nation than the one you have imagined.

So you are telling us that the gentile Church and the "twelve tribes of Israel" are one and the same?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Usually, this debate arises when people compare Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology. I find I can't subscribe to either one fully. There's a healthy middle ground and, if I remember correctly, it's called Progressive Covenantalism. We, as Gentiles, do not replace Israel, but not all Jews are going to heaven either. Belief in Christ is the only prerequisite to entering Heaven, no questions asked. But there aren't two peoples. Since we are grafted in, we are all one branch. So in the end, there are only parts of those two branches of theology that get it right, in my opinion.

Does covenant theology specifically say that the church replaces Israel? Or is that just some peoples' interpretation? I seriously don't keep up with this stuff.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

The 12 tribes of Israel in the book of Revelation are not the 12 tribes of natural Israel, so we can reasonably assume that God is doing something new in the earth (as that rascal is always prone to do; IMO because it really screws with carnal folks minds who like to put God in a box.)

 

[Beekeeper]

Firing off those slurs again are we? A very bad habit. Sad.

Here is more food for thought:

Isa 14:1 - For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

Isa 14:2 - And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.

Isa 14:3 - And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,

So do you think that those verses are grounds for starting a modern war?
That is why it is so important to understand Bible verses in their right context.
Imagine if people applied the book of Joshua on to the wrong people!
Would that not make them criminally insane?
Would they not be better off if they did not read the Bible in the first place?
Oh, I forgot that you already do that.
Sorry.

 

[cv5]

So do you think that those verses are grounds for starting a modern war?
That is why it is so important to understand Bible verses in their right context.
Imagine if people applied the book of Joshua on to the wrong people!
Would that not make them criminally insane?
Would they not be better off if they did not read the Bible in the first place?
Oh, I forgot that you already do that.
Sorry.

Context you asked for, context you shall receive.....

Gen 15:18
In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

Gen 17:7
And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Gen 17:8
And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. (a prophesied certain but FUTURE reality)

Amo 9:14
And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.

Amo 9:15
And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Christian zionism is like Christian gnosticism: neither is Christian.

People calling themselves Christians, yet adopting gnostic beliefs, doesn't make them Christians. It makes them gnostics.

And people calling themselves Christians, yet adopting pharisaical beliefs (which is what zionism is), doesn't make then Christians. It makes them pharisees.

 

[cv5]

Christian zionism is like Christian gnosticism: neither is Christian.

People calling themselves Christians, yet adopting gnostic beliefs, doesn't make them Christians. It makes them gnostics.

And people calling themselves Christians, yet adopting pharisaical beliefs (which is what zionism is), doesn't make then Christians. It makes them pharisees.

God's unbreakable promises are "Zionism"?
I don't think so.

Gen 17:7
And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Gen 17:8
And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. (a prophesied certain but FUTURE reality)

 

[Beekeeper]

So you are telling us that the gentile Church and the "twelve tribes of Israel" are one and the same?

I do not believe that there ever was a "Gentile Church", unless you mean the Klu Klux Klan.
I think we both agree that Mathew 19:28 is about the future.
When we factor in that the new Jerusalem made without hands has yet to descend on us, we have to expect that there will be some major changes.

Are you telling me that Modern Israelis and the "twelve tribes of Israel" are one and the same?
How do you figure out who belongs to which tribe?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, to thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: Genesis 15:18

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He says not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. Galatians 3:16

 

[Beekeeper]

Context you asked for, context you shall receive.....

Gen 15:18
In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

Gen 17:7
And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Gen 17:8
And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. (a prophesied certain but FUTURE reality)

Amo 9:14
And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.

Amo 9:15
And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.

And every one of those verses that you sent I already know that you understand them out of context too.
I will explain when I get back.
It is well and truly work time where I live.

 

[cv5]

I do not believe that there ever was a "Gentile Church", unless you mean the Klu Klux Klan.

There was never a gentile who became an Israelite, that much is true.
And not once, ever, is a gentile defined as an Israelite in Scripture.

Oh and BTW, these two declarations are contemporaneous (same time same place).....and one will not happen without the other!

Gen 17:8
And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. (a prophesied certain but FUTURE reality)

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Zionistas (Jewish and Christian), Muslim haters, people who love war. Most Christians probably don't support it. Catholics are the largest US denomination and are not zionistas

Catholics were the ones that started the whole thing, of course they are against the Jews! smh Catholics had Jews wearing the Star of David and living in ghettos before Hitler ever thought of it. I have a Muslim couple on my FB page I met through an app. so much for hating Muslims. She often agreed when I asked for prayer when my mother had cancer.

Mandatory Badges (Pre-1933)

• 1215 Fourth Lateran Council: Pope Innocent III issued Canon 68, which mandated that Jews and Muslims in all Christian provinces must wear special, identifying clothing to distinguish them from Christians.
• Purpose: The decree was designed to prevent "prohibited intercourse" (sexual relations) between Christians and Jews.
• Implementation: Over the next few centuries, various rulers in England, France, and Germany enforced these restrictions, often requiring a yellow badge, circular ring, or a pointed hat

Ghettos (Pre-1933)

• The First Ghetto (1516): The term "ghetto" originated in Venice, Italy, when authorities forced Jews to live in a specific, locked-down area of the city.
• Expansion: By the 16th and 17th centuries, similar segregated areas were established in Rome, Prague, and Frankfurt.
• Purpose: These areas were designed to segregate Jews from the Christian population and often involved closing gates at night

The Catholic Church, specifically the Papacy, established and enforced Jewish ghettos, most notably the Roman Ghetto created by Pope Paul IV in 1555. Through the papal bull Cum nimis absurdum, Jews in the Papal States were confined to crowded, walled-in areas with severe restrictions on their professions and daily life. Info from wherever AI gathers it.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Zionists call people "antisemitic" when they are anti- zionist.
They weaken the word because it is useful for their politics.
The result is that people become indifferent to being called by that name.
That is also a problem for Jews, because real antisemitism actually exists.
There are people who identify themselves as Nazis and call for the killing of Jews.
I have not met any of them on this forum.

Do the Jewish people have a right to their homeland and to defend it and name their own capital?

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Usually, this debate arises when people compare Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology. I find I can't subscribe to either one fully. There's a healthy middle ground and, if I remember correctly, it's called Progressive Covenantalism. We, as Gentiles, do not replace Israel, but not all Jews are going to heaven either. Belief in Christ is the only prerequisite to entering Heaven, no questions asked. But there aren't two peoples. Since we are grafted in, we are all one branch. So in the end, there are only parts of those two branches of theology that get it right, in my opinion.

No one here believes there is any other way to be saved but through Christ.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Christian zionism is like Christian gnosticism: neither is Christian.

People calling themselves Christians, yet adopting gnostic beliefs, doesn't make them Christians. It makes them gnostics.

And people calling themselves Christians, yet adopting pharisaical beliefs (which is what zionism is), doesn't make then Christians. It makes them pharisees.

No, it doesn't. Zionism is the belief that the Jewish people have a right to a homeland. God gave them that homeland with an unconditional, everlasting promise. It's literally in the Word, you don't get more Christian than that.

 

[cv5]

In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, to thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: Genesis 15:18

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He says not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. Galatians 3:16

Right. Which of course proves my earlier assertions:
That Israel will ONLY obtain their covenant possessions AFTER receiving their Kinsman Redeemer.
Made clear by the four "UNTIL" statements of Scripture. And of course the unequivocal statement by God thru Moses, Ezekiel, Joel, Amos, Micah, Isaiah, Jerimiah and most of the prophets.

Eze 37:11
Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

Eze 37:12
Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

Eze 37:13
And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

Eze 37:14
And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

*********************************************************************

National Israel will not permanently obtain her full Abrahamic/Davidic covenant possessions until she receives her Kinsman-Redeemer (Messiah) at the end of the Time of Jacob’s Trouble.

Let’s test that proposition biblically and prophetically.

The Land Promise Is Unconditional — But Possession Is Conditional
The Covenant Itself

In Genesis 15, God alone passes between the pieces. The land promise is unilateral and irrevocable (cf. Gen 15:18–21; 17:7–8). The covenant depends on God, not Israel’s obedience.

But…

Enjoyment of the Land Is Conditional

Deuteronomy 28 makes clear:

Obedience → security in the land

Disobedience → expulsion from the land

This establishes a pattern:
Title is unconditional; enjoyment is conditional.

Israel’s Final Regathering Requires Repentance

The key text is Deuteronomy 30:1–6.

Notice the order:

Scattering among the nations

National repentance

God gathers them

Then they possess the land permanently

Verse 6 is decisive:

“The LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart…”

That is New Covenant language (cf. Jer 31; Ezek 36).

Thus:
Permanent possession follows spiritual transformation.

The “Time of Jacob’s Trouble” Produces National Repentance

Jeremiah 30:7:

“Alas! for that day is great… it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.”

The tribulation is not merely judgment — it is purification.

Compare:

Zechariah 12:10

“They shall look upon me whom they have pierced…”

Zechariah 13:8–9

A remnant refined and brought to faith.

Repentance comes at the climax of national distress.

The Kinsman-Redeemer Must Be Received Before the Kingdom

The pattern of the Kinsman Redeemer is seen in Ruth:

Naomi (Israel) loses possession

Ruth (Gentile bride) is gathered first

Boaz redeems only after the legal issue is settled

The land is restored through the Redeemer

Prophetic parallel:

Israel temporarily set aside

Gentile fullness gathered (Rom 11:25)

Then “all Israel shall be saved” (Rom 11:26)

Messiah Returns Before Israel’s Kingdom Possession

Matthew 23:39:

“Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh…”

That is national acknowledgment.

Then:

Zechariah 14:3–4
Messiah stands on the Mount of Olives and delivers Jerusalem.

Only after this intervention does Israel dwell securely.

Ezekiel 36–37: Cleansing Before Dwelling Securely

In Ezekiel 36:

Order matters:

Regathering

Cleansing

New heart

Indwelling Spirit

Then dwelling securely in the land

Chapter 37 (Valley of Dry Bones) shows:

National resurrection

Then “David my servant” reigns

Then everlasting covenant of peace

The kingdom follows spiritual rebirth.

Daniel 9 Places the Turning Point at the End of the 70th Week

Daniel 9:24 states six goals for Israel:

Finish transgression

Make an end of sins

Bring in everlasting righteousness

Those are spiritual objectives fulfilled at the climax of the 70th week — not before.

Thus covenant fulfillment waits until that moment.

Romans 11: National Salvation Precedes Restoration

Romans 11:25–27:

Blindness in part… until the fullness of the Gentiles…
And so all Israel shall be saved.

Paul connects:

Removal of blindness

Covenant forgiveness

Then fulfillment of promises

Restoration is tied to redemption.

Logical Flow of the Prophetic Order

Israel scattered

Partial regathering in unbelief (modern state)

Time of Jacob’s Trouble

National repentance

Reception of Messiah

Spiritual regeneration

Messianic Kingdom

Secure covenant possession

If Israel permanently possessed the covenant land before receiving the Redeemer:

Deut 30 order would be violated

Jer 31 New Covenant timing would be reversed

Zech 12 national repentance would be unnecessary

Rom 11 sequence would collapse

Theological Conclusion

Yes — Scripture consistently places permanent covenant possession AFTER national repentance and reception of Messiah at the end of Jacob’s Trouble.

The land promise is irrevocable.
But its final secure enjoyment awaits:

The appearance and acceptance of Israel’s Kinsman-Redeemer.

 

[cv5]

The 12 tribes of Israel in the book of Revelation are not the 12 tribes of natural Israel, so we can reasonably assume that God is doing something new in the earth (as that rascal is always prone to do; IMO because it really screws with carnal folks minds who like to put God in a box.)

Would you care to attempt to exegete these passages?
We would love to hear your......opinion.You know, just the standard stuff: when, where, who, why. Stuff like that.
Thanks for your attention to this matter.

Where is this "throne" located?
What time frame is this "regeneration" going to happen?
Who are these "twelve tribes" and where do they come from?
Where and when will this "drinking" take place.

Let me help you : see Ezekiel 40-48.
The chapters that the replacement theologians love to hate....
They have no answer.

Mat 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, ***in the regeneration*** when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luk 22:30
That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Mat 26:29 - But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.