Loss of salvation???

[Toknow]

You, my friend, don't even know what Good works are.

Yes, we are COMMANDED to obey God............Through the Spirit. Which comes from salvation.

Yes we are COMMANDED to do good works.....Through the Spirit. Which comes from salvation.

If we don't? Loss of rewards. Discipline. Loss of reign. SHAME. Loss of temporal blessings and ETERNAL blessings.

SHAME to the loss of salvation crowd. They crucify Christ over and over and over.

With an honest reading of the bible, I would rather do NOTHING as a believer compared to a believer who says loss of salvation is possible.

And we're saved FOR A PRIZE?
Jesus died on that cross so we could get A PRIZE?


How would YOU understand the following?
Those that go back to their PREVIOUS STATE,,,,lose their very salvation:


2 Peter 2:20-22
20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”[g] and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

 

[Musicmaster]

And we're saved FOR A PRIZE?
Jesus died on that cross so we could get A PRIZE?


How would YOU understand the following?
Those that go back to their PREVIOUS STATE,,,,lose their very salvation:


2 Peter 2:20-22
20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”[g] and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

Peter was speaking to Israel, not to the body of Christ. This continued failure to rightly divide the word of truth is problematic with you Westerners.

Also, injecting something into that text that which isnt there, such as loss of salvation, a horrid practice I've seen perpetrated by Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses that I'm sure you wouldn't accept from them, it's just plain manipulative. Peter could more easily have said that they were lost, but he didn't. Scripture is inspired by God, therefore leaving out the creative writing antics you seem to think was at play.

MM

 

[Ouch]

Stupid and ignorant comment that proves you do not know what it means to be born again. Those who are born again have a new nature that hates sin. It does not mean that they no longer sin, but it does not mean that they live as they please. I've yet to come across a real believer that loves sin. I've been saved 53 years.

Thank you for the heads up, that is what we are suppose to do!!

That is what I was trying to do to a person who is heading down the wrong path at night time with no lights and with blinders on.

This is what happened.


Post to Penn ed guy, #7245 who thinks that JESUS saves us and keeps us saved!!!

Ed guy #7245 Absolutely horrible theology.

For those casual readers, this guy believes HIS works keeps him saved.

Do NOT believe him.

The Lord Jesus Christ saves AND keeps us saved!

Me, I ASKED HIM, #7255

Curious, you say JESUS is the one who saves us.

And JESUS is the one who keeps us saved.

Is there anything we have to do?

Any conditions at all?

Ed guy rely #7256

Yes.

Believe using the faith HE has given us.


My rely #7260

So I can sleep around on my wife.

Live in the bars every night.

I wonder how many things to list?

I can live anyway I want and do anything I like just believe and keep my faith in JESUS and I'm good to go.

There was a couple more, but I still think he is blind.

I guess in the future when I ask such stupid question I should put the name of the one who has the folish ideas of how to be saved?

GOD BLESS YOU.

 

[Ouch]

Not such a stupid argument Gideon....

I get asked all the time how many sins one must commit in order to lose their salvation.
Now that is a pretty dumb question.

@Ouch is right to ask his question since there are those here that state that obedience is not REALLY necessary...everything is covered by the blood.

What does that sound like to YOU?

Does it sound like what Jesus taught?

Or does Jesus demand fruit from us?

John 15:2
2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit,


God cuts off every branch that does not bear fruit.

Maybe we'd be better off to state that, yes, God does require something from us.

Thank you!!!

 

[Musicmaster]

Not such a stupid argument Gideon....

I get asked all the time how many sins one must commit in order to lose their salvation.
Now that is a pretty dumb question.

Wrong! It's only dumb to those who invent doctrine from their own internal desires for what they WANT to believe. Don't you see that?

Look, if loss of salvation were true for the body of Christ, then it would indeed be important for all new converts to know where that line rests, and here we are with salvation loss members using nothing but hypotheticals for such a loss without even attempting to define that line of distinction for alleged loss of salvation. You can't sit there and describe in detail what it will be like in Heaven for those who have lost all their reward in the fires of testing. Scripture clearly states they will SUFFER the loss, and that's in Heaven, literally stated in the text.

So, what's dumb is parroting a doctrine that has no distinctively defining borders apart from made-up hypotheticals...not to mention the claims for such things as our teaching the lack for need to obedience. Who among us ever said that without you yet again injecting into these forms that totally straw man argument.

If you don't have any better weaponry in your arsenal, then it would be best to not say anything at all. I'm saying this for the benefit of others since I'm fairly sure you will not at all change your beliefs on the basis of what's actually stated in scripture as a contrast to what's injected from your dogmatic attacks.

So, rather than attacking with false accusations, you might try being honest about what others have actually stated rather then dabble in dishonesty as your tactic for trying to gain an audience of fellow accursed people preaching another gospel.

MM

 

[Ouch]

And we're saved FOR A PRIZE?
Jesus died on that cross so we could get A PRIZE?


How would YOU understand the following?
Those that go back to their PREVIOUS STATE,,,,lose their very salvation:


2 Peter 2:20-22
20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”[g] and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

As you can tell the music master guy separates us.

He put me on ignore.

JESUS don't look at geenes, skin color or gender the music master guy does.

Strange, JESUS died for all of us, wonder why so many different denominations?

Keep planing those seeds.

GOD BLESS YOU.

 

[Ouch]

Wrong! It's only dumb to those who invent doctrine from their own internal desires for what they WANT to believe. Don't you see that?

Look, if loss of salvation were true for the body of Christ, then it would indeed be important for all new converts to know where that line rests, and here we are with salvation loss members using nothing but hypotheticals for such a loss without even attempting to define that line of distinction for alleged loss of salvation. You can't sit there and describe in detail what it will be like in Heaven for those who have lost all their reward in the fires of testing. Scripture clearly states they will SUFFER the loss, and that's in Heaven, literally stated in the text.

So, what's dumb is parroting a doctrine that has no distinctively defining borders apart from made-up hypotheticals...not to mention the claims for such things as our teaching the lack for need to obedience. Who among us ever said that without you yet again injecting into these forms that totally straw man argument.

If you don't have any better weaponry in your arsenal, then it would be best to not say anything at all. I'm saying this for the benefit of others since I'm fairly sure you will not at all change your beliefs on the basis of what's actually stated in scripture as a contrast to what's injected from your dogmatic attacks.

So, rather than attacking with false accusations, you might try being honest about what others have actually stated rather then dabble in dishonesty as your tactic for trying to gain an audience of fellow accursed people preaching another gospel.

MM

Just read the first paragraph.

You need to look at yourself.

 

[mailmandan]

I do so believe you've just rescinded on what you posted to me
which caused me to give you one of these:

You are always looking for that "gotcha" moment that never happens.

You are one confused dude Dan.

Look and pay need to what you just posted above to PennEd in post no. 7286:

"Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:22-26; 4:5-6) No supplements needed."

So, what you are saying is I'm confused and Christ's finished work of redemption being sufficient and complete to save believers when it's actually IN-sufficient and IN-complete to save believers and that supplements are needed and salvation is by works? That would be the opposite of what I stated which you claim I'm confused about.

After reading the above, could you confirm that you meant what you wrote?

So, I'm the one who is confused, yet you are asking me to confirm what I meant? So, you are not even exactly sure about what I meant?

You stated that BELIEVERS NEED ONLY Christ's finished work of redemption to save them.

We are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. (Romans 3:24) So, is Christ an ALL-sufficient Savior or an IN-sufficient Savior?

BELIEVERS....
Which means that they are ALREADY SAVED
you are NOT referring to salvation/justification

but to sanctification.

I am referring to salvation/justification in which we are saved from the PENALTY of sin. Ongoing sanctification is where we are being saved from the POWER of sin.

When I gave you the joyful emoji,,,it was my understnding that you were stating that you
were referring to NON-BELIEVERS and HOW to become saved.
BY FAITH ONLY.

By grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

The above is stating that BELIEVERS ONLY NEED Christ's work of redemption to save THEM....BELIEVERS.

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of his finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-26; 4:5-6; 11:6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

So you ARE addressing SANCTIFICATION.
Sanctificaiton is NOT bey FAITH ONLY, but by obeying God.

So, what you are saying is that we are merely "initially" saved by faith then after that, salvation is maintained by works? I call that "type 2 works salvation" or salvation by works at the back door and it's a false gospel. There are 3 tenses to salvation that often get confused by works-salvationists.

1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification)
2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification)
3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

The moment we are saved and justified we are also sanctified set apart/made holy in standing before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. 1 Corinthians 1:2 - To the church of God, which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus..

Yet we also see progressive or ongoing sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4, - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor.

So, becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one-time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one-time event. The believer possesses a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, an ongoing process of growth in practical, progressive holiness which becomes increasingly evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. Ongoing sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is even if we don't live a sinless, perfect life 100% of the time (which we won't) we are still justified by faith. (Romans 5:1)

You do like to create confusion.

That statement is the epitome of irony.

One moment you say works are not necessary to REMAIN SAVED.
The next moment you agree that works are good to REMAIN SAVED.
Then you regress and state that works are not necessary TO REMAIN SAVED.

What confusion!

YOU ARE CONFUSING ME WITH YOURSELF HERE.

Let me be absolutely clear on what the NT teaches:

AFTER we become saved
WE MUST OBEY GOD.
WE MUST OBEY EVERY COMMAND OF JESUS.

or
WE WILL MOST DEFINITELY BECOME AS LOST AS WE WERE BEFORE SALVATION.
WHY?
BECAUSE GO DEMANDS OBEDIENCE...

SO, WE MUST OBEY EVERY COMMAND OF JESUS, WHICH MEANS WE MUST NEVER SIN AT ALL, SO SINLESS PERFECT OBEDIENCE TO ALL OF CHRIST'S COMMANDS ARE ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY TO REMAIN SAVED, BECAUSE GOD DEMANDS OBEDIENCE. MUST OR ELSE! HOW IS THAT WORKING OUT FOR YOU? HAVE YOU REACHED SINLESS PERFECT OBEDIENCE YET?

Those who do not believe what the NT clearly teaches...
are certainly confused.

You are certainly confused. From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is NOT BY WORKS.

 

[mailmandan]

Stupid and ignorant comment that proves you do not know what it means to be born again. Those who are born again have a new nature that hates sin. It does not mean that they no longer sin, but it does not mean that they live as they please. I've yet to come across a real believer that loves sin. I've been saved 53 years.

2 Corinthians 5:17 - Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

1 Peter 1:23 - having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever.

Moral self-reformation/behavior modification is not a substitute for regeneration.

 

[mailmandan]

Moses failed BIG TIME in his required works and obedience.........And he still had eternal life.

Moses even had signs and wonders and personal dealings with the Lord.......And failed.

And here we are today judging salvation of others by their works or lack there of......and we all go by strictly faith.

Yes, Moses did fail in that situation big time, but he was still a man of faith (Hebrews 11:24-28) and was still saved because of his faith.

 

[studier]

As far as I am concerned, if you are found to have faith, you have obeyed by believing the word.

Some questions to make sure I'm understanding you:

1. If you are found to have faith, when?
2. Are you saying that the act of believing is the total sum of the obedience God requires?

This is why I consider faith AND obedience an oxymoron..

1. If faith and obedience are truly opposites that cannot exist together, how can your initial faith be obedience?

 

[Gideon300]

Not such a stupid argument Gideon....

I get asked all the time how many sins one must commit in order to lose their salvation.
Now that is a pretty dumb question.

@Ouch is right to ask his question since there are those here that state that obedience is not REALLY necessary...everything is covered by the blood.

What does that sound like to YOU?

Does it sound like what Jesus taught?

Or does Jesus demand fruit from us?

John 15:2
2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit,


God cuts off every branch that does not bear fruit.

Maybe we'd be better off to state that, yes, God does require something from us.

It's sad that your concept of salvation is so shallow. To be born again is to have a new nature, to be a new person and that new person does not want to sin. How? Because the sin nature is removed through the cross of Christ. It is dead an buried. Christians still have the capacity to sin and often are bound by sins until they learn how to be free. But I've never met a born again believer who thinks its acceptable to live a sinful lifestyle.

A bird flies because it is a bird, not because it follows a flight manual, straps on an engine and tries to take off. Christians have the new nature that is of God and Lord Jesus lives in us to motivate and empower us to live as pleases God. When the believer realises that there is nothing left for him/her to do but rejoice in the great salvation Jesus bought for us, our lives will be transformed.

Those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God. Yesterday, I had to drive somewhere with my wife. I had no reason to do so, but I took a different route to our destination. I also went back a different way. As I was turning into the main road, I saw emergency vehicles and heavy traffic at the intersection I'd normally have used. Maybe I would have been in the accident if I'd gone that way or we might have witnessed something traumatic. For sure on the way back we dodged the accident scene. It is often in the simple things that God leads. I could not find a Bible verse to tell me what to do. I needed the inner voice of the Spirit to lead me. it's the only way to live.

 

[Wansvic]

Absolutely horrible theology.

For those casual readers, this guy believes HIS works keeps him saved.

Do NOT believe him.

The Lord Jesus Christ saves AND keeps us saved!

"And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Phil. 2:11-15

 

[studier]

We read the Bible in different ways

Truly and amazing reality. Wish it weren't.

 

[Wansvic]

Agreed, but the workers cannot settle for this because they need to believe their obedience contributes to their salvation.

Let us be clear even though they deny it, it is a "Gospel of I save myself by my obedience" and this directly contradicts scripture and nullifies the work of Christ Jesus and His victory.

"And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
As he spake these words, many believed on him.
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:29-32

"And he (Jesus) said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Mark 16:15-16

 

[studier]

Idk what it is that keeps frustrating what seems to be my agreement with your understanding. I notice myself following the details you flesh out and then, somewhere along the way... I think you keep going at the point where I find myself saying, "that's it!"

You've voiced the ambition to define works, and works of faith to be specific, if I've understood you correctly. Although I'm not equipped to define it in the terms that you might've hoped for, I can offer, haaaa! at the chagrin of a one that hates them (I don't recall, specifically, who) an analogy.

A work of faith is like a lifejacket. Initially, one does the work of believing by putting it on. And then, subsequently, one 'checks' it before jumping into the deeper ends of the pool. Once checked for the assurance that the lifejacket is yet secure, and the more one checks, the more confident one becomes in taking the dive.

This covers all the 'gisms' doesn't it? The lifejacket keeps one buoyant and so is really doing most of the work, but one must 'keep it on' in order to continue to keep afloat.

The only thing I'd add to make this a more accurate analogy is the specification that the lifejacket always clears all 'checks.'

Can you pinpoint your concern? Was it in the list you responded to? That list mainly related to initial faith-obedience. We can expand it to include living in faith-obedience.

 

[studier]

https://gbible.org/e-books/doctrine-eternal-security/

Glanced at this article. Appreciate the link. At this point if I read something it's normally more fully exegetical than doctrinal and expositional.

 

[Musicmaster]

"And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Phil. 2:11-15

This is a good quote that continuously is misunderstood and misrepresented by false teaching pastors in the West. In modern vernaculars, it seems as though Paul is telling them to work at keeping their salvation. This was inspired and written NOT with Western vernacular intent, but EASTERN thinking. To us, when working OUT the salvation we have through faith alone in Christ Jesus and His shed Blood, that means working OUTWARD that INNER finished work within us. Lazy Westerners assume this is an instruction for the means to allegedly retain salvation in spite of the fact that the Greek makes no such illusions.

In other words, LIVE OUTWARDLY that inner work already done within.

It's amazing how much appeal is made to grossly misunderstood and misrepresented meaning within English translations.

MM

 

[PennEd]

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Work out.
NOT, work for!

Just as we should work out our bodies, so should we work out our salvation through walking in the Spirit.

You don’t want your spirit getting flabby do ya?

Nothing to do with Jesus saving you.

 

[studier]

I get asked all the time how many sins one must commit in order to lose their salvation.
Now that is a pretty dumb question.

Agreed.