Loss of salvation???

[mailmandan]

Work out.
NOT, work for!

Just as we should work out our bodies, so should we work out our salvation through walking in the Spirit.

You don’t want your spirit getting flabby do ya?

Nothing to do with Jesus saving you.

Amen! When we "work out" at the gym, we exercise to develop our body that we already have and not to get a body. Farmers "work out" the land, not in order to get the land, but to develop the land they already have.

 

[Toknow]

Peter was speaking to Israel, not to the body of Christ. This continued failure to rightly divide the word of truth is problematic with you Westerners.

Also, injecting something into that text that which isnt there, such as loss of salvation, a horrid practice I've seen perpetrated by Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses that I'm sure you wouldn't accept from them, it's just plain manipulative. Peter could more easily have said that they were lost, but he didn't. Scripture is inspired by God, therefore leaving out the creative writing antics you seem to think was at play.

MM

The NT is for ALL believers...before, during and after the resurrection.

What I posted,,,and there are many more passages of scripture to support that eternal security in only secure IF we are IN CHRIST.

The following shows that some were saved and then fell away and returned to their former life.


2 Peter 2:20-22
20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.


21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.


22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”[g] and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”


Verse 20 Some persons escaped corruption by KNOWING JESUS.
They become entangled in this corruption AGAIN.

The word AGAIN signifies returning to a previous state.

Those that RETURN to their PREVIOUS STATE are WORSE OFF than they were at the beginning.
Yes, turning away from Jesus is most serious after we've known Him.

Verse 21 Better not to have know righteousness...than to have known it and then turned away. Thus trampling of the blood of Christ, as is stated in Hebrews 10:29

Verse 22 It's like Proverbs states: A sow that IS WASHED RETURNS to her mud.

 

[mailmandan]

In regard to 2 Peter 2:20, those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.*

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature."

Corruption is deeper than pollutions on the outside. It is decay on the inside.

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment. Judas Iscariot is a good example.

 

[BillyBob]

As for those who think, those of us who preach because we are secure, we can sin willy nilly, I would say our God is a consuming fire. If you truly belong to Christ you will come under such discipline as to be stripped of your sinful ways or you were never His in the first place. God does not go around saving people, making them alive in Christ, only to be mistaken and having to undo His work.

 

[Just_A__Follower]

We MUST obey God

You love that word MUST.
Why MUST we obey God?

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

You love that word MUST.
Why MUST we obey God?

To be saved Jesus MUST be BOTH your Lord and Savior.

All of you who don't want to obey Him only want Jesus as your Savior. It doesn't work that way. Jesus MUST be your Lord too.


🕊

 

[Musicmaster]

The NT is for ALL believers...before, during and after the resurrection.

What I posted,,,and there are many more passages of scripture to support that eternal security in only secure IF we are IN CHRIST.

The following shows that some were saved and then fell away and returned to their former life.


2 Peter 2:20-22
20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.


21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.


22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”[g] and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”


Verse 20 Some persons escaped corruption by KNOWING JESUS.
They become entangled in this corruption AGAIN.

The word AGAIN signifies returning to a previous state.

Those that RETURN to their PREVIOUS STATE are WORSE OFF than they were at the beginning.
Yes, turning away from Jesus is most serious after we've known Him.

Verse 21 Better not to have know righteousness...than to have known it and then turned away. Thus trampling of the blood of Christ, as is stated in Hebrews 10:29

Verse 22 It's like Proverbs states: A sow that IS WASHED RETURNS to her mud.

Wow. You pop-Christianity people stuck in Western thinking, which is filled with falsehoods, you still can't seem to get it that the majority of the four gospels are not NT. Why do you people continue to vomit that fallible misrepresentation? Continuing the same old worn out argument about "working out" as if that equates to working FOR, this nonsense will be with us for a long time.

So, you can certainly continue being accursed by way of the OTHER gospel you preach, but as for those of us who accept scripture for what it says rather than to stay in line with such religions as Roman Catholicism, Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses, all of whom also teach works-based salvation, good luck with that because you are not at all in line with what's written for us today. Cherry-picking from the OT what was meant for those who were under the Law and/or under the Kingdom Gospel, that's legalism, pure and simple, the preachers of which Paul stated are those who are accursed.

MM

 

[Just_A__Follower]

To be saved Jesus MUST be BOTH your Lord and Savior.

All of you who don't want to obey Him only want Jesus as your Savior. It doesn't work that way. Jesus MUST be your Lord too.


🕊

“To be saved”=self preservation.

So essentially you are following His commandments out of selfishness instead of love.

You want to follow Him so you’ll be saved. I want to follow Him because I love Him.

 

[Wansvic]

This is a good quote that continuously is misunderstood and misrepresented by false teaching pastors in the West. In modern vernaculars, it seems as though Paul is telling them to work at keeping their salvation. This was inspired and written NOT with Western vernacular intent, but EASTERN thinking. To us, when working OUT the salvation we have through faith alone in Christ Jesus and His shed Blood, that means working OUTWARD that INNER finished work within us. Lazy Westerners assume this is an instruction for the means to allegedly retain salvation in spite of the fact that the Greek makes no such illusions.

In other words, LIVE OUTWARDLY that inner work already done within.

It's amazing how much appeal is made to grossly misunderstood and misrepresented meaning within English translations.

MM

So where does the fear and trembling come into play?

 

[Wansvic]

Work out.
NOT, work for!

Just as we should work out our bodies, so should we work out our salvation through walking in the Spirit.

You don’t want your spirit getting flabby do ya?

Nothing to do with Jesus saving you.

I ask you, as Musicmaster, where does fear and trembling factor into the equation?

 

[Musicmaster]

The astounding nature of Westernized, pop-theology, so much of which is socially engineered and cultic-based, it's unfortunate that such a system will remain with us till the end. Their pastors, inclusive of both men and women, that pretty much betrays the root fallacy upon which they operate. I love them but am deeply saddened when beholding the manic defenses for falsehoods.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

So where does the fear and trembling come into play?

Good question, and thanks for that.

On a more surface representation for meaning rather than getting into a deep and lengthy theological discussion:

The simplest meaning is that we live OUTWARDLY toward others our resulting salvation obtained by grace through faith, and do so in fear and trembling.

Why?

Simply stated, it's because we continue to sin, never having left it behind entirely. That taint is reason for us to fear misleading others by how we live our lives in Christ before them. This is serious stuff that more people should take more seriously. Therein is the foundation undergirding the revelation of the one in Heaven whose work that he built with hay, wood and stubble that burned in the fires of testing, he still suffered in Heaven that loss, which is far more terrible than most people here in this life on this earth imagine.

So, we build before and within others what will be tested in the fire of God's word and His Righteousness, and is therefore cause for our fear and trembling here and now.

That should cause more people to pause before continuing to parrot the Kingdom Gospel under this dispensation of the Gospel of Grace given that grace and works simply don't mix in relation to salvation

Does that help?

MM

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

“To be saved”=self preservation.

So essentially you are following His commandments out of selfishness instead of love.

You want to follow Him so you’ll be saved. I want to follow Him because I love Him.

How would you know, and who cares? You have no authority to send me to hell. And God doesn't agree with you.

You say you love God but you tell people not to obey Him? You're only kidding yourself. You're not fooling God.


🕊

 

[studier]

This is a good quote that continuously is misunderstood and misrepresented by false teaching pastors in the West. In modern vernaculars, it seems as though Paul is telling them to work at keeping their salvation. This was inspired and written NOT with Western vernacular intent, but EASTERN thinking. To us, when working OUT the salvation we have through faith alone in Christ Jesus and His shed Blood, that means working OUTWARD that INNER finished work within us. Lazy Westerners assume this is an instruction for the means to allegedly retain salvation in spite of the fact that the Greek makes no such illusions.

In other words, LIVE OUTWARDLY that inner work already done within.

It's amazing how much appeal is made to grossly misunderstood and misrepresented meaning within English translations.MM

Work out.
NOT, work for!

Just as we should work out our bodies, so should we work out our salvation through walking in the Spirit.

You don’t want your spirit getting flabby do ya?

Nothing to do with Jesus saving you.

It's amazing how separatists view geography as meaningful to understanding Scripture.

NKJ Phil. 2:9-11 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

• Pretty self-explanatory for some of us who believe who Jesus, YHWH's Christ/King is, and understand that this belief has and maintains a genuine, willing, loving mindset of reverence and bowing the knee continually.

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

• Having established the above reality, Paul continues by recognizing these believers' obedience ultimately to to our Lord so heavily emphasized above, but also to his Apostle. He says they have 'always/at all times' obeyed - not just once at the beginning - always/at all times, even in Paul's absence.
• The the Lord Jesus Christ's Apostle commands more obedience:
  • katergazesthe your salvation
    • katergazesthe - from katergazomai - a compound word made of a preposition, kata, plus ergazomai - to work - thus intensifying the concept of work - the form is an imperative command.
      • Per BDAG Lexicon: 1. to bring about a result by doing someth., achieve, accomplish, do τὶ someth. 2. to cause a state or condition, bring about, produce, create. 3. to cause to be well prepared, prepare someone. 4. to be successful in the face of obstacles, overpower, subdue, conquer.
      • This "work out" translation is interpretive and IMO accommodating theological concerns. Nowhere else in the Text is this word translated "work out"
    • It is very clear that Christ's Apostle Paul is commanding these consistently obedient believers to accomplish by work their salvation.
      • The reason I place 'accomplish' first is because this is the sense of this intensified form of erzgazomai which means 'to work to accomplish" - the focus being the work - and the focus of the intensified form being the accomplishment of the work.
      • At this point I would seriously be thinking about the good works we were created for in Christ Jesus that the same Paul speaks of in Eph2:10.
  • So Paul is commanding obedient believers to more obedience - to accomplish their salvation by work - and he intensifies this even more by adding 'in fear and trembling' - adding an even deeper sense of seriousness that relates at minimum to the reverence and knee bowing and obedience at all times to Jesus Christ to the glory of God the Father who highly exalted Christ our Lord.

13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do work for His good pleasure.

• "for" is linking back to what Paul's just said and providing explanation for his command and 'fear and trembling' language.
  • The reason Paul is commanding consistently obedient believers to accomplish their salvation by work in fear and trembling is that God is actively working in them - more literally providing capacities in them to strengthen their both their will and their work for/on behalf of [His] good pleasure.
    • IOW, this is what God is active doing in you, so in fear and trembling be working at what He wants accomplished while He's providing His capacities to your will and your work to do His desire.
• IMO anyone teaching monergism or denying the necessity of cooperative good works and continual obedience to the Lord Christ/King and God our Father just lost their case. Also, anyone teaching that salvation is momentary and not a process also just lost their case. We can try to soften this as 'work out' and try to change the wording from 'salvation' to 'sanctification' but those of us anchored in the Text have the benefit of grace to read the Word of God as it's stated apart from systematic theologies that try to tell us the Text does really say that or mean what it says.

14 Do all things without complaining and disputing, 15 that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain.

• Also self explanatory - just do what He says without grumbling and uncertainty (continuing to bow the knee, continuing to obey His commands, accomplishing your salvation by work in reverence cooperating with God who is providing His capacities so you both will and work on behalf of His good pleasure) so you can become blameless and pure/innocent Children of God - shining as lights in the world in the midst of a crooked/morally bent and perverted generation.
  • Do this by holding fast the word/message of life - the message that is the source of life - part of which Paul has just given us in close context in Phil2:9-11 - which is Paul's foundational Gospel per 1Cor3:10-11 - the only foundation Paul lays/places = Jesus is the Christ.
    • Do what Jesus Christ's Apostle commands - so he can boast in the end that his run and toil/labor was not empty/without result/for no purpose.
• BTW:
  • the underling in 2:14 is another Apostolic command - so more obedience is required
  • We become what's stated in 2:15 by obeying the command in 2:14 which ties back to the command in 2:12-13, which ties back to the obedience to the Lord/Christ/King in 2:9-13 - and we become lights to the world by maintaining our grasp on the message that Jesus is the Christ to whom all knees in the universe bow in obedience.
  • Paul has already and will again mention faith (Phil1:25 where he speaks of progress of faith (which we've just read about in part); Phil1:27; Phil2:17; Phil3:9) - we're reading more about faith-obedience - how faith-obedience is continually tied together in the Text, both at initial faith-obedience and living in continuing faith-obedience.

Soften this if you will. I wouldn't.

 

[Just_A__Follower]

How would you know, and who cares? You have no authority to send me to hell. And God doesn't agree with you.

You say you love God but you tell people not to obey Him? You're only kidding yourself. You're not fooling God.


🕊

For one, I said nothing about you going to hell. Two, please quote one time where I’ve told people not to obey God.

Obeying His commandments is an action. We both want to obey Him. I’m talking about the reason behind the obedience. He doesn’t just look at our actions. He looks at our heart. What is the intention behind the obedience?

““If you love me, you will keep my commandments.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14‬:‭15 ESV

Some people read the Bible as a rule book as to how to get to heaven. I however read it as a love letter from a God that loves us so much He completed the ultimate sacrifice so that we could spend eternity with Him starting now, not later.

 

[Wansvic]

It's amazing how separatists view geography as meaningful to understanding Scripture.

NKJ Phil. 2:9-11 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

• Pretty self-explanatory for some of us who believe who Jesus, YHWH's Christ/King is, and understand that this belief has and maintains a genuine, willing, loving mindset of reverence and bowing the knee continually.

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

• Having established the above reality, Paul continues by recognizing these believers' obedience ultimately to to our Lord so heavily emphasized above, but also to his Apostle. He says they have 'always/at all times' obeyed - not just once at the beginning - always/at all times, even in Paul's absence.
• The the Lord Jesus Christ's Apostle commands more obedience:
  • katergazesthe your salvation
    • katergazesthe - from katergazomai - a compound word made of a preposition, kata, plus ergazomai - to work - thus intensifying the concept of work - the form is an imperative command.
      • Per BDAG Lexicon: 1. to bring about a result by doing someth., achieve, accomplish, do τὶ someth. 2. to cause a state or condition, bring about, produce, create. 3. to cause to be well prepared, prepare someone. 4. to be successful in the face of obstacles, overpower, subdue, conquer.
      • This "work out" translation is interpretive and IMO accommodating theological concerns. Nowhere else in the Text is this word translated "work out"
    • It is very clear that Christ's Apostle Paul is commanding these consistently obedient believers to accomplish by work their salvation.
      • The reason I place 'accomplish' first is because this is the sense of this intensified form of erzgazomai which means 'to work to accomplish" - the focus being the work - and the focus of the intensified form being the accomplishment of the work.
      • At this point I would seriously be thinking about the good works we were created for in Christ Jesus that the same Paul speaks of in Eph2:10.
  • So Paul is commanding obedient believers to more obedience - to accomplish their salvation by work - and he intensifies this even more by adding 'in fear and trembling' - adding an even deeper sense of seriousness that relates at minimum to the reverence and knee bowing and obedience at all times to Jesus Christ to the glory of God the Father who highly exalted Christ our Lord.

13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do work for His good pleasure.

• "for" is linking back to what Paul's just said and providing explanation for his command and 'fear and trembling' language.
  • The reason Paul is commanding consistently obedient believers to accomplish their salvation by work in fear and trembling is that God is actively working in them - more literally providing capacities in them to strengthen their both their will and their work for/on behalf of [His] good pleasure.
    • IOW, this is what God is active doing in you, so in fear and trembling be working at what He wants accomplished while He's providing His capacities to your will and your work to do His desire.
• IMO anyone teaching monergism or denying the necessity of cooperative good works and continual obedience to the Lord Christ/King and God our Father just lost their case. Also, anyone teaching that salvation is momentary and not a process also just lost their case. We can try to soften this as 'work out' and try to change the wording from 'salvation' to 'sanctification' but those of us anchored in the Text have the benefit of grace to read the Word of God as it's stated apart from systematic theologies that try to tell us the Text does really say that or mean what it says.

14 Do all things without complaining and disputing, 15 that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain.

• Also self explanatory - just do what He says without grumbling and uncertainty (continuing to bow the knee, continuing to obey His commands, accomplishing your salvation by work in reverence cooperating with God who is providing His capacities so you both will and work on behalf of His good pleasure) so you can become blameless and pure/innocent Children of God - shining as lights in the world in the midst of a crooked/morally bent and perverted generation.
  • Do this by holding fast the word/message of life - the message that is the source of life - part of which Paul has just given us in close context in Phil2:9-11 - which is Paul's foundational Gospel per 1Cor3:10-11 - the only foundation Paul lays/places = Jesus is the Christ.
    • Do what Jesus Christ's Apostle commands - so he can boast in the end that his run and toil/labor was not empty/without result/for no purpose.
• BTW:
  • the underling in 2:14 is another Apostolic command - so more obedience is required
  • We become what's stated in 2:15 by obeying the command in 2:14 which ties back to the command in 2:12-13, which ties back to the obedience to the Lord/Christ/King in 2:9-13 - and we become lights to the world by maintaining our grasp on the message that Jesus is the Christ to whom all knees in the universe bow in obedience.
  • Paul has already and will again mention faith (Phil1:25 where he speaks of progress of faith (which we've just read about in part); Phil1:27; Phil2:17; Phil3:9) - we're reading more about faith-obedience - how faith-obedience is continually tied together in the Text, both at initial faith-obedience and living in continuing faith-obedience.

Soften this if you will. I wouldn't.

Great explanation. And thank you for shining light on how fear and trembling factor into the equation!

 

[studier]

You love that word MUST.
Why MUST we obey God?

This is one of the saddest among the saddest posts I've recently read.

We must because it's built into the title 'Christ" and "King" and 'Lord' let alone the word "God' and "Father".

What's with "Christians" who have no authority orientation? Too many sessions under a 1Cor15:1-4 'gospel' I guess and not enough time in Scriptures like Ps2 that was part of Paul's real evangelism (Acts13:33) - no understanding of the title of the One to whom all knees in the universe shall bow (Phil2:9-11) and how He told us precisely who God was looking for on the earth = those who will bow in obeisance to Him in Spirit and Truth (John4:21-26 which I think is the heaviest emphasis we have of Jesus Christ stating something).

NKJ John 4:24 "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship bow in obeisance in spirit and truth."

• "MUST" means it is necessary - it's used extensively in the NC - 101 times in the manuscript I just check.
• proskuneō - a compound word - pros + kuneo = to kiss towards - pictures the act of a servant or subject falling to their knees to kiss the ground or the feet of a superior - pictures total allegiance and subservience to a sovereign - an authority - in this case GOD.

This pushback against necessity of continual, willing, responsive, cooperation in faith-obedience to the Authority of God and His Christ is distressing. It's expected in the world - NOT in the Body.

 

[Ouch]

It's amazing how separatists view geography as meaningful to understanding Scripture.

NKJ Phil. 2:9-11 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

• Pretty self-explanatory for some of us who believe who Jesus, YHWH's Christ/King is, and understand that this belief has and maintains a genuine, willing, loving mindset of reverence and bowing the knee continually.

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

• Having established the above reality, Paul continues by recognizing these believers' obedience ultimately to to our Lord so heavily emphasized above, but also to his Apostle. He says they have 'always/at all times' obeyed - not just once at the beginning - always/at all times, even in Paul's absence.
• The the Lord Jesus Christ's Apostle commands more obedience:
  • katergazesthe your salvation
    • katergazesthe - from katergazomai - a compound word made of a preposition, kata, plus ergazomai - to work - thus intensifying the concept of work - the form is an imperative command.
      • Per BDAG Lexicon: 1. to bring about a result by doing someth., achieve, accomplish, do τὶ someth. 2. to cause a state or condition, bring about, produce, create. 3. to cause to be well prepared, prepare someone. 4. to be successful in the face of obstacles, overpower, subdue, conquer.
      • This "work out" translation is interpretive and IMO accommodating theological concerns. Nowhere else in the Text is this word translated "work out"
    • It is very clear that Christ's Apostle Paul is commanding these consistently obedient believers to accomplish by work their salvation.
      • The reason I place 'accomplish' first is because this is the sense of this intensified form of erzgazomai which means 'to work to accomplish" - the focus being the work - and the focus of the intensified form being the accomplishment of the work.
      • At this point I would seriously be thinking about the good works we were created for in Christ Jesus that the same Paul speaks of in Eph2:10.
  • So Paul is commanding obedient believers to more obedience - to accomplish their salvation by work - and he intensifies this even more by adding 'in fear and trembling' - adding an even deeper sense of seriousness that relates at minimum to the reverence and knee bowing and obedience at all times to Jesus Christ to the glory of God the Father who highly exalted Christ our Lord.

13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do work for His good pleasure.

• "for" is linking back to what Paul's just said and providing explanation for his command and 'fear and trembling' language.
  • The reason Paul is commanding consistently obedient believers to accomplish their salvation by work in fear and trembling is that God is actively working in them - more literally providing capacities in them to strengthen their both their will and their work for/on behalf of [His] good pleasure.
    • IOW, this is what God is active doing in you, so in fear and trembling be working at what He wants accomplished while He's providing His capacities to your will and your work to do His desire.
• IMO anyone teaching monergism or denying the necessity of cooperative good works and continual obedience to the Lord Christ/King and God our Father just lost their case. Also, anyone teaching that salvation is momentary and not a process also just lost their case. We can try to soften this as 'work out' and try to change the wording from 'salvation' to 'sanctification' but those of us anchored in the Text have the benefit of grace to read the Word of God as it's stated apart from systematic theologies that try to tell us the Text does really say that or mean what it says.

14 Do all things without complaining and disputing, 15 that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain.

• Also self explanatory - just do what He says without grumbling and uncertainty (continuing to bow the knee, continuing to obey His commands, accomplishing your salvation by work in reverence cooperating with God who is providing His capacities so you both will and work on behalf of His good pleasure) so you can become blameless and pure/innocent Children of God - shining as lights in the world in the midst of a crooked/morally bent and perverted generation.
  • Do this by holding fast the word/message of life - the message that is the source of life - part of which Paul has just given us in close context in Phil2:9-11 - which is Paul's foundational Gospel per 1Cor3:10-11 - the only foundation Paul lays/places = Jesus is the Christ.
    • Do what Jesus Christ's Apostle commands - so he can boast in the end that his run and toil/labor was not empty/without result/for no purpose.
• BTW:
  • the underling in 2:14 is another Apostolic command - so more obedience is required
  • We become what's stated in 2:15 by obeying the command in 2:14 which ties back to the command in 2:12-13, which ties back to the obedience to the Lord/Christ/King in 2:9-13 - and we become lights to the world by maintaining our grasp on the message that Jesus is the Christ to whom all knees in the universe bow in obedience.
  • Paul has already and will again mention faith (Phil1:25 where he speaks of progress of faith (which we've just read about in part); Phil1:27; Phil2:17; Phil3:9) - we're reading more about faith-obedience - how faith-obedience is continually tied together in the Text, both at initial faith-obedience and living in continuing faith-obedience.

Soften this if you will. I wouldn't.

THANK YOU.

 

[studier]

Great explanation. And thank you for shining light on how fear and trembling factor into the equation!

Thanks. I think this to be a very important section of Scripture that too many want to mess with.

I'd add re: 'fear and trembling' in paraphrase 'don't get at cross purposes with what God is commanded we cooperatively work at with Him - what He is at work doing in us.

 

[Toknow]

You are always looking for that "gotcha" moment that never happens.

So, what you are saying is I'm confused and Christ's finished work of redemption being sufficient and complete to save believers when it's actually IN-sufficient and IN-complete to save believers and that supplements are needed and salvation is by works? That would be the opposite of what I stated which you claim I'm confused about.

You are one confused dude Dan.

THIS is what you stated in post no. 7376...which is NOT what you stated when I gave you the emoji.

"Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:22-26; 4:5-6) No supplements needed. "

Read carefully:
You're stating that Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient .....[ALL THAT IS NECESSARY] for BELIEVERS.
NO SUPPLEMENT NECESSARY.

This is wrong and is not taught in the NT.

It's wrong because it's speaking about BELIEVERS.

What you're saying is that BELIEVERS need do nothing because of Christ's finished work on the cross.

Could you post some scripture that states this??
Maybe 2 or 3 verses that clearly spell out what you've just stated?


The NT teaches that we are to do good works.
Christ's work gets us saved....

but then we are to obey Him to remain saved.

Acts 5:32
32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”


1 Peter 1:14
14As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance,


1 John 5:3
3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.


Obedience includes doing good works


Matthew 5:16
16In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.


1 John 3:18
18 Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.

Titus 3:8
8The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people.


Salvation can be lost - all the writers warn us


Colossians 1:22-23
21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[g] your evil behavior.

22 But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—

23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel.



Hebrews 10:26-27
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,

27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God


2 Timothy 4:7
7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.


1 Timothy 4:1
1Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

So, I'm the one who is confused, yet you are asking me to confirm what I meant? So, you are not even exactly sure about what I meant?

We are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. (Romans 3:24) So, is Christ an ALL-sufficient Savior or an IN-sufficient Savior?

I am referring to salvation/justification in which we are saved from the PENALTY of sin. Ongoing sanctification is where we are being saved from the POWER of sin.

You have not posted the correct meaning of SANCTIFICATION.

Thus the confusion you cause.

By grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of his finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-26; 4:5-6; 11:6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

So, what you are saying is that we are merely "initially" saved by faith then after that, salvation is maintained by works? I call that "type 2 works salvation" or salvation by works at the back door and it's a false gospel. There are 3 tenses to salvation that often get confused by works-salvationists.

Please post some verses that prove that we are not required to obey God or do good works
AFTER we are saved.

You will NOT find any such scripture because it does not exist.

1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification)
2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification)
3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

The moment we are saved and justified we are also sanctified set apart/made holy in standing before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. 1 Corinthians 1:2 - To the church of God, which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus..

So here you state that we are sanctified ONE TIME?

Yet we also see progressive or ongoing sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4, - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor.

Now you state it is ONGOING?

Which is it?

You posted 1 Thes 4:3-4
It states that we are to abstain from immoratlity and know how to possess our own vessel.

Sounds like your dreaded salvation by works type 2 to me.

So, becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one-time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one-time event. The believer possesses a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, an ongoing process of growth in practical, progressive holiness which becomes increasingly evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. Ongoing sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is even if we don't live a sinless, perfect life 100% of the time (which we won't) we are still justified by faith. (Romans 5:1

You know someone that lives a 100% perfect life?
NO.

So what you're saying is that even if we sin...
no big deal...

You said:

OUR SANCTIFICATION HAS NO BEARING ON OUR JUSTIFICATION.

Sir,,,it most certainly does.

If sanctificaiton is the evidence of salvation...
then
no sanctification = no salvation

YOU are the one always saying that our good works are EVIDENCE.

What confusion!

SO, WE MUST OBEY EVERY COMMAND OF JESUS, WHICH MEANS WE MUST NEVER SIN AT ALL, SO SINLESS PERFECT OBEDIENCE TO ALL OF CHRIST'S COMMANDS ARE ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY TO REMAIN SAVED, BECAUSE GOD DEMANDS OBEDIENCE. MUST OR ELSE! HOW IS THAT WORKING OUT FOR YOU? HAVE YOU REACHED SINLESS PERFECT OBEDIENCE YET?

Please post where I stated this nonsensical declaration which YOU have made
not ME.

You are certainly confused. From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is NOT BY WORKS.

You have confused the meaning of salvation.
You have made of all the hay one batch.
Your theology is a total confusion.
Words mean nothing to you...you define them wrongly.



We contribute to our salvation:



Mark 16:20 Jesus works WITH the disciples,,,as He works with us.
20 Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.


1 Corinthians 12:25-26 We are in one body....so as to be of help to each other....God does not do it all....
25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other.
26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.


1 Corinthians 16:13
13 Be on your guard; stand firm in the faith; be courageous; be strong. 14 Do everything in love.

Matthew 7:21
21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.