Loss of salvation???

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I wonder about those who were/are baptized in filthy pond water filled with harmful microbes one dares not drink, or contaminated river water also filled with little critters one should never ingest?

Conversely, do they think that the filtered and chlorinated tubs in their churchianity buildings do a better job at allegedly washing away their sins more effectively because of that water allegedly being more clean...apart from those who might pee in it from the giggles of glee for thinking they've really accomplished something in addition to the allegedly insufficient Blood of Christ and His grace...?

I'm just wondering, because when John the Baptist, who is emphatically stated to have been sent to preach AND to baptize, as a complete and utter contrast to Paul who said that he was NOT sent to baptize, John, who baptized in the Jordan river, was that river's water cleaner back then than now? Can anyone in that gang answer these questions?

What of those baptized in the Dead Sea? They must have been pushed down harder into that brackish, salty water to get them fully immersed. Did that preservative salt do a better job at allegedly cleansing and washing away sins better than that wimpy, peed in, chlorine saturated and shocked water used in churchianity tubs, did that huge salt content do a better job at allegedly washing away sins?

Given their thinking that works-based salvation through self effort in water baptism supplements the Blood of Christ and His unmerited favor, I'm figuring that they must give some consideration to the water quality, would they not?

How about all those legalistic followers of ordinances and Law out there, those who believe water baptism remits their sins...do you all and your gang ever give thought to all that? After all, legalism most generally always gives thought to all aspects of a ceremonial act required for some spiritual outcome, right?

Consider leaven in bread. Given that detail as to what had to be left out of bread for it to be fit for the offerings and partaking in ceremonial endeavors that we Israeli's practiced throughout our ancient history on the basis of the Law, one would think that they all must have SOME minimal standards for the cleanliness of the water. Do they think they're more clean had their getting wet been performed in the chlorinated waters of their churchianity tub up front...or wherever it is?

MM
Naaman had the same mindset. "You've got to be kidding me! As if getting into the filthy water of the Jordan is going to remove the stinking leprosy (sin) clinging to my wretched body." Thankfully Naaman came to his senses and took the advise of his servantS.

It's not about the water! What it is about is obedience, placing one's total trust in God rather than insisting we are so, so much smarter than He. At least, in the end, Naaman came to his senses. And God did as promised when Naaman put aside his pride and obeyed.

Consider what Jesus had to say about the man who decided God knew better than he. "And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian." Luke 4:27


2 Kings 5:9-14
So Naaman came with his horses and with his chariot, and stood at the door of the house of Elisha.


And Elisha sent a messenger unto him, saying, Go and wash in the Jordan seven times, and thy flesh shall come again to thee, and thou shalt be clean.

But Naaman was wroth, and went away, and said, Behold, I thought, He will surely come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of the Lord his God, and strike his hand over the place, and recover the leper.

Are not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? may I not wash in them, and be clean? So he turned and went away in a rage.

And his servants came near, and spake unto him, and said, My father, if the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? how much rather then, when he saith to thee, Wash, and be clean?

Then went he down, and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God: and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean."
 
Naaman had the same mindset. "You've got to be kidding me! As if getting into the filthy water of the Jordan is going to remove the stinking leprosy (sin) clinging to my wretched body." Thankfully Naaman came to his senses and took the advise of his servantS.

It's not about the water! What it is about is obedience, placing one's total trust in God rather than insisting we are so, so much smarter than He. At least, in the end, Naaman came to his senses. And God did as promised when Naaman put aside his pride and obeyed.

Consider what Jesus had to say about the man who decided God knew better than he. "And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian." Luke 4:27


2 Kings 5:9-14
So Naaman came with his horses and with his chariot, and stood at the door of the house of Elisha.


And Elisha sent a messenger unto him, saying, Go and wash in the Jordan seven times, and thy flesh shall come again to thee, and thou shalt be clean.

But Naaman was wroth, and went away, and said, Behold, I thought, He will surely come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of the Lord his God, and strike his hand over the place, and recover the leper.

Are not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? may I not wash in them, and be clean? So he turned and went away in a rage.

And his servants came near, and spake unto him, and said, My father, if the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? how much rather then, when he saith to thee, Wash, and be clean?

Then went he down, and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God: and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean."

You're right. We of Israel were indeed required to DO the actions that demonstrated our faith because we were under the Law. Even after the ascension of Christ Jesus, the apostles and my fellow Jews were still zealous for the Law. Paul, however, taught no such adherence nor zeal for the Law to you Gentiles and even taught my fellow Jews to abandon the Law of Moses, which included water baptism. Instead, Paul taught walking and living by the Spirit, that our righteousness is now based upon faith in love, not in works through ceremonial cleansing and remission of sins.

You are preaching "another" gospel, which makes you accursed by the standards of Paul's teachings, instructions and the revelations given to him by Christ Jesus. What being accursed entails, that's a matter for you alone to research and pray about. I'm not responsible for your standing in Christ given that you alone are on notice and are therefore responsible for what you do with the the knowledge given. If your chosen beliefs are such that you will remain aligned with them in spite of the evidence to the contrary, that's on your alone.

Shalom

MM
 
Keep it simple.

1. Is it true we need to be baptized in JESUS name to remove our sins?

That is bible.

Your statement that it fits an outward sign is NOT BIBLE, if it was you could back it up with scripture.

2. Is it true that we need the Holy Ghost?

JESUS says in John 3:5 we need BOTH.

Peters first message says BOTH in Acts 2:38.

In the 4 accouts of being reborn Acts 2,8,10 and 19 BOTH being baptized in JESUS name and when JESUS filled them they spoke in tougues.

Since your the one trying to prove, we only need one which one is it?

Since it's our job to be odident and summit to being bapitzed for remmmions of our sins.

And it's JESUS job to fill us with the Holy Ghost.

Who is not suppose to do their job?

Us or JESUS?

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

How do you explain what JESUS says?

Why do you assume when It says one baptism it the one who which JESUS is supose to do?
Yet you still ignore the elephant in the room.
 
Keep it simple.

1. Is it true we need to be baptized in JESUS name to remove our sins?

That is bible.

Your statement that it fits an outward sign is NOT BIBLE, if it was you could back it up with scripture.

2. Is it true that we need the Holy Ghost?

JESUS says in John 3:5 we need BOTH.

Peters first message says BOTH in Acts 2:38.

In the 4 accouts of being reborn Acts 2,8,10 and 19 BOTH being baptized in JESUS name and when JESUS filled them they spoke in tougues.

Since your the one trying to prove, we only need one which one is it?

Since it's our job to be odident and summit to being bapitzed for remmmions of our sins.

And it's JESUS job to fill us with the Holy Ghost.

Who is not suppose to do their job?

Us or JESUS?

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

How do you explain what JESUS says?

Why do you assume when It says one baptism it the one who which JESUS is supose to do?
Here is a simple question. Do you believe that if a person gets Baptized in water, but believes its an act of obedience rather than salvation, that they are still lost, or saved?
 
That water baptism is a rudiment of the Law, commanded by Christ to Israel right along with animal sacrificial gifts, therefore only for those who were still under the Law when He commanded those things of us who are of Israel back then, you Gentiles today who erroneously ignore the legalistic aspect of water baptism as it allegedly pertaining to salvation today in opposition to salvation by grace through faith alone, you all are accursed by the very standard Paul was inspired to write down for all our benefit. For proof, read scripture for what it says for once in your lives and accept what's written in contrast to your false teaching pastors and whomever else you have chosen to follow after as opposed to the scriptures.

I'm not condemning you, for those who would level that false charge. You either accept what scripture says, or you do not. Trying to use the battering ram of interpretation, that's the fodder of goats when we have the clarity of language as opposed to allegory, which has no absolute rules for interpretation and thus being a free-for-all wrestling match of wits. I have yet to meet one scholar who appeals to wit as the defining rule for understanding scripture.

MM
 
Ouch would walk around mountains of grace in order to find water.
And I don't know about you? But where I am from and through all my travels......90% or more of the believers I know have all been dunked.

Satan knows water has nothing to do with salvation, so Satan will deceive people with water.

Believe on Michael Phelps and you shall be saved....You and all other swimmers.;)

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...magical water...which is the go-to of witches and warlocks...

Many of us who are of Israel clearly are opposed to those practices.

MM
The people of Israel were and are the most deceived people on this planet. I wouldn't count on my heritage for any truth.

The Lord Jesus Christ apposed those practices. If Israel saw and knew the truth, we would be in the millennium.
 
Its interesting to see how much oneness pentecostals have in common with catholicism.
Where justification/sanctification is concerned I doubt there is much difference at all(apart from speaking in tongues). Neither believe you can be in a saved/justified state without water baptism taking place. And it seems they both stress no one can enter Heaven with any attached sin
Of course, for catholics there is always purgatory, so I suppose oneness at are a disadvantage there. Only a death bed confession will do
 
It's fine you thinking I'm stupid.

You have one goal here to point your fingers at others to make your self look big.

Sad part is that is all backed by Satan.

JESUS is LOVE, Satan in hate and loves division.

Your objective is to post things that you know will get reactions so that you can, in turn, accuse others like you accused me.
It is not me who has the problem, buddy.
You set people up with your blasphemous posts to react.
And, then they become the bad guy!

Your posts are stupid.
Are you stupid?
Your posts are.

You are shown corrections, and you continue on like nothing was said.
That is how you get your reactions so you can have something to accuse them with.

YOU ARE A TRAP.
 
Not at all what I said. Have a good day.

Well... that was a term used for human birth.

For Jesus was dealing with two births only.

Physical birth = flesh begets flesh.
And....
Spiritual birth = Spirit begets spirit.

But you keep throwing a bucket of cold water on it.

Have a good day, also
 
OK, I believe you, but I dont think that's what mailmandan is suggesting. I understand, from what he wrote genuine faith will never be alone, works will accompany it, a genuine salvation by faith apart from works
But faith is Not apart from works.

Some believe that obeying Jesus is the same as saying that we are saved by our works.
Paul teaches that we are NOT saved by our works.

So when Paul states that we are to do good works...
WHAT is he talking about?

He's talking about the good works we do AFTER we're saved.

Those that disguise their belief with confusing language...really mean THIS:

We are saved by faith alone...

And we continue to be saved by faith alone.


THIS is not what Jesus taught.

THIS is what Jesus taugth - and language should not muddy up the waters.


John 15:2
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;



Jesus said that every branch IN HIM that does NOT bear fruit...will be taken away.

If a person is IN JESUS it means he is a saved person.
If that saved person does NOT bear fruit....he will be taken away.

Now watch those that believ in FAITH ONLY try to explain that away and even give a
really interesting twist to the words TAKEN AWAY.

Anything will be said...
except to agree that we are to obey Jesus.
 
...magical water...which is the go-to of witches and warlocks...

Many of us who are of Israel clearly are opposed to those practices.

MM
And Yet? You claim that there was another Gospel and Israel needed water baptism to be saved. Please clarify.
 
But faith is Not apart from works.

Some believe that obeying Jesus is the same as saying that we are saved by our works.
Paul teaches that we are NOT saved by our works.

So when Paul states that we are to do good works...
WHAT is he talking about?

He's talking about the good works we do AFTER we're saved.

Those that disguise their belief with confusing language...really mean THIS:

We are saved by faith alone...

And we continue to be saved by faith alone.


THIS is not what Jesus taught.

THIS is what Jesus taugth - and language should not muddy up the waters.


John 15:2
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;



Jesus said that every branch IN HIM that does NOT bear fruit...will be taken away.

If a person is IN JESUS it means he is a saved person.
If that saved person does NOT bear fruit....he will be taken away.

Now watch those that believ in FAITH ONLY try to explain that away and even give a
really interesting twist to the words TAKEN AWAY.

Anything will be said...
except to agree that we are to obey Jesus.
Paul believed, if you knew you had no righteousness of obeying the law sin would no longer be your master. Or, if you knew you were secure with God apart from obeying the law sin would no longer be your master
For me, the same applies with works.

For me, this is how it SHOULD work.
A person gets saved, they believe they are secure with God under a sole righteousness of faith in Christ, apart from works of the law/works. In my view, such a person will love God far more than another who believes their continued salvation hinges on their personal performance. Then, out of overwhelming love and gratitude for the free salvation they have, works of love will automatically follow.
If a person believes their continued salvation hinges on ''works'' would they then be doing works for the correct reason? They may do them resentfully, begrudgingly, simply believing they must be done or they will end up in hell. In my view, the works God would prefer, would be done out of overwhelming love and gratitude for a free salvation. I would say, they are the works Jesus wanted to see in John15
 
We only do what we want more.

The problem with MUST is that people can go through the motions and they believe they are saved based off their actions.
That's on them, isn't it?

Do we change Christian theology because some don't undersand it?

Do we deny what Jesus taught because some don't believe faith in God leads to salvation?


They look at what they are doing a say to themselves “ I’m doing what I must do, I should be good”. But whether their heart has changed or not is up in the air. How bout we put it this way, You Must Want to follow His commandments to be saved.
We should be telling the truth Just.
NOT what some would want us to say.

I could agree with your term.
You said:

WE MUST WANT TO FOLLOW HIS COMMANDMENTS TO BE SAVED:

That's good enough for me.

Jesus said it.

If we love Him we WILL follow His commandments.
We WILL obey Him.

John 14:15
14 You are My friends if you do what I command you.



We only do what we want to do. There are usually multiple wants so we end up doing what we want more. If someone holds a gun to my to my head and tells me to give them my wallet, I want to keep my money. But I want more to live. Let’s say we sin by lying to our boss to protect our job. We want to tell the truth but in the moment we want more to keep our job. We know the right thing to do but our desire overcomes our wisdom.
The above has nothing to do with obedience to God.

I don't read anywhere in scripture that we're to be perfect.

I'm saying we need to obey God....not be perfect.
why is this even debated??
 
The main reason for the continuance in debating about water baptism allegedly remitting sin rests within the failure to rightly divide the word of truth:

2 Timothy 2:14-19
14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Granted, the above context is about the rapture. However, the concept is indeed valid. Those who teach the works-based salvation of the Kingdom Gospel, they are stuck with the hope that the Kingdom Gospel still has a power to save them, for they certainly have fallen from grace to dare try and preach another gospel to those whom they convert into their religion:

Galatians 5:3-6
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Water baptism was of the Law just as was circumcision. Paul, however, who was of the circumcision, preached not baptism in command, although he practiced it at times among a small number of people.

Galatians 2:7
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

I enlarged the relevant wording to show that there is indeed two different gospels, therefore two different dispensations, both of which rest upon the foundation of Christ Jesus and what He accomplished on the cross. If it were one and the same gospel, the wording would have reflected that by saying something like, "The gospel of the uncircumcision and the circumcision given unto Peter and to me." The intentional wording in the direction of distinctive gospels is clearly stated, even though some reject and ignore that in leu of their chosen beliefs.

The idea of us today being remitted for our sins on the basis of any element of the Mosaic Law, no:

Within our system of the Mosaic Law within Israel, our priests were baptized (washed) in water before entering service at the age of 30. See such verses as Exodus 29:4 and Leviticus 8:6. So, with water baptism (washing) having its foundations within the Mosaic Law, it makes sense that Paul was instructed by Christ to put aside ALL that is of the Law and to move forward into that which is by the Spirit alone through faith, thus the reasoning for the need that we rightly divide the word of truth.

I can't say that those who look to the Kingdom Gospel, deeply rooted in the Mosaic Law, are saved today if they still adhere to that aspect of the Mosaic Law, but chancing that by boasting of one's water baptism, that's a dangerous place to be...given that those who preach it are accursed according to Paul of Tarsus. If that touches upon salvation, then they perhaps have something of a more serious nature to consider. James, in Acts 15, nowhere declared the continuance of the Law among you Gentiles and us Jews under the Gospel of Grace except for four items, none of which included that baptism (washing).

MM

There is no baptizm debate.

1. You obey and get baptized in JESUS name to remove your sins.

2. You don't!