Loss of salvation???

[Ouch]

Yet you still ignore the elephant in the room.

Elephant?

It's not hard!!

We need to be both born of water and of spirit.

We are responsible for obeying and getting bapitzed in JESUS name for remission of our sins.

JESUS is responsibe for filling us with HIS SPIRIT.

 

[Ouch]

Here is a simple question. Do you believe that if a person gets Baptized in water, but believes its an act of obedience rather than salvation, that they are still lost, or saved?

That question is confusing?

Being baptized is an act of obedience.

It also is not the only compontant which leads to salvation.

This is what HIS word says how to be reborn.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Acts 2:38-39
King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Do you notice TWO things in both cases water and spirit???

When JESUS fills someone,

Acts 2,
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Not to mention we need to believe and repent.

Without all 4, we are not reborn, does that answer your question?

 

[Ouch]

You sure used your invitation to the lunatic ball.

Not me, I also know what happens in the water.

That is why I was baptized in JESUS name.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

JESUS tells us if we believe and we are baptized we shall be saved.

Do you understand what JESUS is saying?

 

[Kroogz]

John 15:2
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;

airei airei G142 vi Pres Act 3 Sg He-IS-LIFTING

Nothing about loss of salvation.

If you fall in the dirt, He lifts you up so you can produce.

A benevolent God.

 

[Ouch]

YOU ARE A TRAP...

(dumb like a fox)

LOL, so you don't like people poing out your mistakes.

Got it.

Now be honest, have you been baptized in JESUS name to remove your sins???

Or do you think I'm setting you up?

 

[Just_A__Follower]

That's on them, isn't it?

Do we change Christian theology because some don't undersand it?

Do we deny what Jesus taught because some don't believe faith in God leads to salvation?



We should be telling the truth Just.
NOT what some would want us to say.

I could agree with your term.
You said:

WE MUST WANT TO FOLLOW HIS COMMANDMENTS TO BE SAVED:

That's good enough for me.

Jesus said it.

If we love Him we WILL follow His commandments.
We WILL obey Him.

John 14:15
14 You are My friends if you do what I command you.



The above has nothing to do with obedience to God.

I don't read anywhere in scripture that we're to be perfect.

I'm saying we need to obey God....not be perfect.
why is this even debated??

you acted as if we don’t follow our wants. I believe we do. I didn’t say anything about being perfect. But Jesus does say we are to be perfect. The problem is we can’t be perfect which is why we need to Him to stand in our place.

 

[Toknow]

Which red words?
In fifty years Ive never come across anyone who even tried to obey each and every literal command of Christ in the gospels
I would go with what Paul wrote:
Carry each others burdens(love them) and so fulfill the law of Christ Gal6:2
By this will all men know you are my disciples, if you have love one for another

You've never seen a red letter bible?
The words Jesus spoke are in red.

You don't even TRY to obey each and every command??
That's not too good.

And probably is a result of teachings such as those of the other member.

So you go to Paul because you THINK Paul did not preach good works/deeds??


Paul taught the same as Jesus.

This is from Paul:

Ephesians 2:10
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works,


Colossians 3:23-24
23 Whatever you do, do your work [y]heartily, as for the Lord and not for people,
24 knowing that it is from the Lord that you will receive the reward [z]of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.


Hebrews 3:16
16Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.


Galatians 6:9
9And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.


Titus 2:14
14Who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.


1 Timothy 6:18
18 Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good [q]works, to be generous and ready to share,



Paul,,,,taught Timothy to teach the Christians to do good,,,to be rich in good works.
Exactly the same as what Jesus taught.

 

[James456]

You've never seen a red letter bible?
The words Jesus spoke are in red.

You don't even TRY to obey each and every command??
That's not too good.

No, Im just being honest, Ive not come across anyone in fifty years who did all of the following:
Do not invite friends and family home for a meal, but the poor, blind, lame and beggars so you may receive your reward in Heaven
If ANYONE asks to lend from you, give to them without expecting anything back
If someone steals from you, give them more than what they stole with nothing but love in your heart for them
If you are persecuted, leap for joy
Love your enemies, really love them, those who may malign, slander or abuse you.
If you ever fast, do not as much as hint to anyone you are fasting.

I can put some more up. Maybe you think I know the wrong christians

 

[Kroogz]

Not me, I also know what happens in the water.

That is why I was baptized in JESUS name.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

JESUS tells us if we believe and we are baptized we shall be saved.

Do you understand what JESUS is saying?

Matt 7
21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

John 6:40
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

 

[James456]

You've never seen a red letter bible?
The words Jesus spoke are in red.

You don't even TRY to obey each and every command??
That's not too good.

And probably is a result of teachings such as those of the other member.

So you go to Paul because you THINK Paul did not preach good works/deeds??


Paul taught the same as Jesus.
.

Don't forget, as Jesus told his disciples, what he taught them could be understand without the indwelling Holy Spirit, he said he wanted to teach them much more, but they could not yet bear such knowledge, but when the Spirit of truth was sent, he would guide them into all truth. Paul had received the Holy Spirit, and wrote to those who had also received him
Paul taught HOW to live a Holy life, but the rational mind of man will not understand his message:

Sin is the transgression of the law 1John3:4

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law/not committing sin, rather through the law we become conscious of sin Rom3:20

To the rational mind of man the above is a licence to sin, to Paul the very opposite would be the result:

For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law/righteousness of obeying the law, but under grace/righteousness of faith in Christ Rom6:14


Impossible for the natural mind to understand or accept

 

[Sipsey]

That question is confusing?

Being baptized is an act of obedience.

It also is not the only compontant which leads to salvation.

This is what HIS word says how to be reborn.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Acts 2:38-39
King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Do you notice TWO things in both cases water and spirit???

When JESUS fills someone,

Acts 2,
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Not to mention we need to believe and repent.

Without all 4, we are not reborn, does that answer your question?

No. You resort to the same repetitive dialogue.

 

[Sipsey]

That question is confusing?

Being baptized is an act of obedience.

It also is not the only compontant which leads to salvation.

This is what HIS word says how to be reborn.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Acts 2:38-39
King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Do you notice TWO things in both cases water and spirit???

When JESUS fills someone,

Acts 2,
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Not to mention we need to believe and repent.

Without all 4, we are not reborn, does that answer your question?

I understand completely what you are saying. Are you sure there are only 4 things required to be saved?

 

[Ouch]

I understand completely what you are saying. Are you sure there are only 4 things required to be saved?

To the best of my knolage.

After we are reborn we need to work for HIM.

Am I missing something??

 

[Ouch]

No. You resort to the same repetitive dialogue.

Same dialogue?

I thought we were talking about being reborn?

Your questoin was are they saved or lost right?

 

[Toknow]

Everyone agrees with your statement, “Scripture PLAINLY states that baptism forgives sins.”

The disagreement comes from the fact the Scripture speaks of one baptism. Anyone that can read knows the Bible speaks of an inward Spiritual and an outward physical baptism. Which do you think carries more weight with God?

No Christian I know of speaks against being physically baptized in water, what they do protest is the claim by some that they are not saved until they get wet.

That phrase comes straight from Ephesians 4:4–6:
“There is one body and one Spirit… one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all…”

Here’s the plain-spoken meaning
One faith-
The shared belief in Jesus Christ—His life, death, resurrection, and lordship.

Not many saving systems, denominations, or formulas. One gospel, one trust.

One baptism—
The unifying reality of being identified with Christ and brought into His body.

Paul’s emphasis here is unity, not technique.

Elsewhere he explains that this happens by the Spirit:

“For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body” (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Big picture
Paul isn’t listing rituals to check off. He’s grounding Christian unity in what God has already done:

One Savior
One message
One people
One transforming work that brings us into Christ

Water baptism fits as an outward sign and obedience, but the verse itself points to the shared spiritual reality, not a requirement that divides believers by method, timing, or medium.

You posted 1 Cor 12:13
BY ONE SPIRIT WE ARE BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY.

Could you expound on what this means?

Here is my understanding:
We are all baptized by the Holy Spirit.

There is only one Spirit.

To you other comments:

We are saved and THEN baptized.
The salvation in interior, the baptsm is an exterior ACT but it is
efficient to the interior of man....his spirit.

I don't pretend to understand this.
There are several denominations that believe that baptism is necessary and that practice baptism.
And, indeed, it has been practiced from the early church, beginning in the history found in Acts.


You said this about baptism, with which I totally agree:
"One baptism—
The unifying reality of being identified with Christ and brought into His body."



I agree totally but I wonder if we really understand what that means.

As to salvation...it's not ME that is stating that we will be lost without baptism if we have faith in jesus.
If baptism is all that was necessary, then all denominaitons that baptize infants, would have entire congregations going to heaven whether the person had faith or not.

If we have faith and are baptized we will be saved.
What if we're not baptized?
If we don't understand why, or do not even know this...
I see no problem since God will judge by the light we have.

What is bothersome to me is the statements of some on here that say
baptism is NOT NECESSARY AT ALL...

Or that it's like taking a shower....

Or that "dunking someone in some water" will not save them.

I think we should offer more respect to what Jesus commanded the Apostles to do.....
baptize in the name of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit.

Even if we don't understand fully why.

My understanding is that this is when we receive the Holy Spirit.

 

[Wansvic]

You appear to have an issue with understanding some aspects of descriptors in language. Notice Paul stating something that's key to those verses, not to mention the context itself that defies your claims.

Think about his words where he stated, "...so many of us as were baptized..." That doesn't at all lay the groundwork for a command that ALL be water baptized. Where do you see any commandment in that phraseology? Please explain that.

That you're missing the thrust of his words by falsely injecting something into it that's simply not there, and that you continue to fail at showing to us with the clarity of evidential grammar, you're missing the fact that Paul was only stating that those who HAD been water baptized were baptized into the death of Christ Jesus. Yes. Granted. Nobody is disputing that so far as I have seen thus far. There's a vast difference between commandment and simply explaining the equality with the death and resurrection of Christ b y way of a past act that SOME of them had performed, but nowhere stated as a supplement to the UNMERITED favor of salvation by grace through faith.

Now, will you PLEASE highlight and discuss any measure of commandment in that text and its context where you think he is COMMANDING water baptism for all Jews and Gentiles under the Gospel of Grace? Repeating the same old error will never prove your case. Why not discuss the merits of your claim by quoting the relevant text and discussing how any of that equates over into a guidance command for all.



Yes and Jesus also commanded offering up burnt sacrifices too in Matthew 8:4...so what? I have grave doubts that you even attempt to do that today. The instruction for water baptism was a different dispensation of instructions for salvation from what Paul preached as his gospel given to Him by that same Jesus. Jesus, in His gospel, never once preached as the means to salvation, FAITH IN the cross, His death and resurrection, as the basis for salvation. Therefore, your placing so much emphasis on the cherry-picked elements of those instructions to those people at that time is suspect to say the least. Not even Peter preached faith in the cross as the means to salvation in Acts 2, but only pointed to the cross in his indictment against the Jews who were his audience.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you playing on the idea that God did instruct different things in relation to the Law but could not have differentiated within His saving gospels? If so, then why? Why do you think the Lord could not have commanded, over His own creation, the requirement for water baptism for some people at a distinctive time before the fall of Israel, and then something different after that fall so that salvation would THEN come unto Gentiles apart from having to join with Israel BEACUSE of that middle wall of partition that fell with Israel? Why do you remain resistant to that which is clearly shown to us in the text?



Again, you continue in your play upon the fallacy of an argument from silence...the silence being even ONE command from Paul for ALL Gentiles and Jews being water baptized for the remission of sins. Paul clearly stated that faith in the three elements stated in 1 Cor. 15:1-4 as what is required for salvation. The clarity of that is unmistakable, but you choose to resist the obvious in order to continue parroting the legalistic claim for requirement through getting wet in contrast to unmerited favor.

Tell us, how does the MERIT of water baptism fit in with the UNMERITED favor we already have through faith? This dichotomy of yours and many others is a manic denial of not only the narratives but also the very key words therein. The utter silence in you demonstrating quotation and discussion of the terms, grammar and systematic collective on this topic speaks loud volumes to the severe lack in your case.

Please prove your case with more than distant and hollow claims by providing substance.

Thank you.

MM

The message Peter presented included quotes from Joel and the Psalms that drew a massive crowd of Jews to the Messiah. The fulfillment was in line with the purpose of the feast:

Acts 2:30-37
Therefore being a prophet, (David) and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Until I make thy foes thy footstool. (Psa. 110:1)
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ."


Note: The hearers of Peter's message would have understood the connection between Jesus, the risen Messiah, and the Jewish Feast of Pentecost, the second harvest, they were currently attending. Now it all made sense. Jesus was the Passover lamb, and the firstfruit of the Firstfruits harvest; He rose, and others came out of their graves as well when Jesus was resurrected. (Matt. 27:53)

Back to Acts 2, the next verse indicates the hearers wanted to know what they must do in order to be part of this the beginning of the second harvest. Pentecost was the fourth feast held fifty days after Firstfruits; where more crops were harvested then at Firstfruits.


"Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Peter said, Repent, and be baptized EVERYONE of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin and you shall receive the Holy Ghost." (37-38) The same message was then carried into all nations.

Consider, the second harvest in Leviticus is a foreshadow concerning both Jew and Gentile. (23:17) The instruction includes two wave loaves of equal weight and baked with leaven that are called "firstfruits". That the loaves are baked with leaven represents sinful man. And beings they are "firstfruits" they are redeemed men. The harvest that began at Pentecost continues. (3000 died at the giving of the OT law at Mt. Sinai, and 3000 were saved after belief and obedience to the NT gospel.)

"Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the Lord."



As you referenced, Paul's comment concerning salvation in 1 Cor. 15:1-4 indicates everyone must believe is that Jesus' died, was buried, and resurrected. And as I pointed out the scripture reveals that is the first thing that all must believe; there is more to the gospel message.


Per your statement concerning the wall of partition. According to Ephesians 2:14-16, Jesus dealt with the wall of partition between Jew and Gentile at the cross, during his crucifixion.


Lastly, water baptism is by no means a badge of merit. But rather God offering forgiveness to everyone who believes and obeys the command in association with Jesus sacrifice; regardless of this fact not a single person deserves it=unmerited favor.

 

[Toknow]

Paul believed, if you knew you had no righteousness of obeying the law sin would no longer be your master. Or, if you knew you were secure with God apart from obeying the law sin would no longer be your master
For me, the same applies with works.

For me, this is how it SHOULD work.
A person gets saved, they believe they are secure with God under a sole righteousness of faith in Christ, apart from works of the law/works. In my view, such a person will love God far more than another who believes their continued salvation hinges on their personal performance. Then, out of overwhelming love and gratitude for the free salvation they have, works of love will automatically follow.

That's very wonderful James.

Lets see....let's answer this question....

You said our continued salvation should NOT hinge on our good works.

What should it hinge on?

I'll post this again...

John 15:2
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;


IF Jesus is teaching that an unfruitful branch WILL BE TAKEN AWAY...

It means:

That a branch CAN BE UNFRUITEFUL.

If a person believes their continued salvation hinges on ''works'' would they then be doing works for the correct reason? They may do them resentfully, begrudgingly, simply believing they must be done or they will end up in hell. In my view, the works God would prefer, would be done out of overwhelming love and gratitude for a free salvation. I would say, they are the works Jesus wanted to see in John15

jesus does not state anything of what YOU state above.

HE is just saying that we better to some good works or we'll be cut off the vine.
And it's the vine that gives life.
Which means we will lose life if we do not do good works.

 

[Toknow]

airei airei G142 vi Pres Act 3 Sg He-IS-LIFTING

Nothing about loss of salvation.

If you fall in the dirt, He lifts you up so you can produce.

A benevolent God.

I see you "went to the Greek".

Did you happen to notice that there were different meanings?

Of course you chose the one YOU LIKED....
but that makes NO SENSE.

Did you know that in Greece there's a severe shortage of water and grape is grown down at the ground?

NO NEED TO LIFT UP.

It means what the translators of the Greek KNOW it means.....

2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He [a]prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.


1. God TAKES AWAY the branches that are not fruitful.
2. God prunes that ones that are so that they produce EVEN MORE!


3. Still in doubt?
Read the following...

John 5:6
6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown away like a branch and dries up; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.


in John 5:2 jesus is speaking about those IN HIM.
IF we do NOT REMAIN IN HIM...
we will be THROWN AWAY like a branch that dries up, is gathered and burned in the fire.


Your Greek will not function here.

 

[Toknow]

you acted as if we don’t follow our wants. I believe we do. I didn’t say anything about being perfect. But Jesus does say we are to be perfect. The problem is we can’t be perfect which is why we need to Him to stand in our place.

OK on being perfect.
Only Jesus is perfect.

As to wanting to follow our wants.

What if we DO NOT want to follow some want or other.....

Is that OK?

 

[James456]

For me, this is how it SHOULD work.
Once again
A person gets saved, they believe they are secure with God under a sole righteousness of faith in Christ, apart from works of the law/works. In my view, such a person will love God far more than another who believes their continued salvation hinges on their personal performance. Then, out of overwhelming love and gratitude for the free salvation they have, works of love will automatically follow.
That is the works Jesus desires, in John15