Loss of salvation???

[Genez]

Since we do not speak in tongues?
He thinks we do not have the Holy Ghost.

And... he alone hears the Holy Ghost teaching him what to think.

There's the rub.

 

[Toknow]

A simple no would’ve been fine.

Why would I think they would be? Because I don’t read John 3:5 as “unless one takes a bath in water” let’s look at it this way and you tell me if it makes sense.
“Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3‬:‭5‬ ‭ESV

Now let’s rephrase the verse so it says the exact same thing.

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless water and the Spirit give birth to one, that person cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Does it make sense if you look at it that way? NO. It says the same thing but looks weird because physical water is dead. There is no life in it. It cannot give birth to anything. Now could living water give birth? Yes.

Inanimate objects do nothing. We can do stuff with them but they do nothing on their own besides take up space. They definitely don’t give birth. Life comes from life.

But those that believe as you do can NOT post any scripture that SOUNDS as if baptism is just a simple sign.
It's tied in with salvation and the cleansing of sins.

Since theologians cannot agree on what the WATER is in John 3:5...
I don't even like to use that verse.

What do YOU believe the water in John 3 is referring to?

 

[Just_A__Follower]

But those that believe as you do can NOT post any scripture that SOUNDS as if baptism is just a simple sign.
It's tied in with salvation and the cleansing of sins.

Since theologians cannot agree on what the WATER is in John 3:5...
I don't even like to use that verse.

What do YOU believe the water in John 3 is referring to?

John 4:10-14 and John John 7:37-39

 

[James456]

I wonder from where you linked the above?

If I've understood correctly, here's what I believe about baptism:

The moment a person believes, he is saved.
The Holy Spirit will be WITH that person.

I understand baptism to give us the INDWELLING of the Holy Spirit...
He becomes a part of us.

We are to follow the commands of Jesus and He taught that the Apostles were to teach and make disciples and baptize.

The NT does teach that baptism saves.
HOW, I doubt anyone can really know.

Cornelius was saved BEFORE he even heard the message....
but then why also baptize him?

I believe what happened in the upper room of Acts 2 is a separate and unique occurrance, but I will not be adamant about this since I haven't "studied" it enough. It was Jesus giving them to power to witness and teach...this is then passed on from generation to generation by, exactly, the power given by the Holy Spirit.

The CC teaches that God gives grace to mankind with the sacraments...
but He is free to give grace to anyone, in any manner.

Salvation, in and of itself, is grace.

Let me add this,,,,
If we are adamant about NOT being baptized,,,,I'd say this is disobedience and thus a sin, and maybe against the Holy Spirit since we would be DENYING Him.

comment?

Only one thing interests me here. People in this thread believe you can receive the Holy Spirit as the disciples did at Pentecost and speak in tongues whilst in an unsaved state. In other words, the Holy Spirit can reside in the unsaved. I don't think you believe that.
But I have been told by catholics it is written in their catachisms God is not bound by his sacraments. In other words I imagine we cannot put God in a box with dogma.
I believe every christian should be baptised in water, but that is not my concern here, it is what I have mentioned

 

[Genez]

This is how highly Paul thought of water baptism...

Yep you judge me.

Then you shared GODS word, all of HIS word is good.

The day you find out that you have been terribly wrong?
How will you feel about yourself?

Study to shew thyself approved unto God,
a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
rightly dividing the word of truth.

2 Timothy 2:15
​

God has been having some here patiently showing you corrections because He does not want to see you being ashamed
when it comes time for Him to evaluate you.


Now... I have to agree that Peter was having many people water baptized in the earliest days of his ministry.
That is true.
But? All those water baptisms?
They took place before Peter remembered something that he had forgotten.

And? What did Peter forget?

Please let it sink in.
For it is God's Word.

“As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. ​

Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized ​

with the Holy Spirit.’ Acts 11:15-16​

I do not believe you are a dumb person.
Just one that is a little shocked to find out how wrong you can be.

We all made mistakes.

 

[Toknow]

John 4:10-14 and John John 7:37-39

So Jesus is the Living Water?

So what does Matthew 28:19 mean?

19 [g]Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,


GO AND MAKE DISIPLES OF ALL THE NATIONS GIVING THEM MY WATER IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER AND THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT.


Makes no sense Follower.


I know what you mean...
but in the bible,,,baptize always refers to water.


Jesus even gave the FORMULA in Matthew 28:19
IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, THE SON, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT.

 

[Genez]

Vampires don't like mirrors (self-reflection) either. This guy is certainly sucking the fun out sharing the word.

Odd that a vampire would prefer water over blood.

 

[Toknow]

Only one thing interests me here. People in this thread believe you can receive the Holy Spirit as the disciples did at Pentecost and speak in tongues whilst in an unsaved state. In other words, the Holy Spirit can reside in the unsaved. I don't think you believe that.
But I have been told by catholics it is written in their catachisms God is not bound by his sacraments. In other words I imagine we cannot put God in a box with dogma.
I believe every christian should be baptised in water, but that is not my concern here, it is what I have mentioned

I'd love to know the number of the paragraph of the CCC.
I just can't remember this.

Just for those interested, i'm going to post what the CC teaches about baptism.

As to what you're interested in:

Tongues is a gift and has nothing to do with baptism.
Some denomnations do teach about the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" as receiving tongues.
If this were true...90% of Christians do not have the Holy Spirit.
IOW...it's a false teaching and the early church NEVER believed this.

And yes, the Holy Spirit CANNOT reside in the unsaved.
I can show this by the very teaching of the CC that baptizes babies.

A baby is baptized.
He DOES receive the Holy Spirit.
The baby grows up and becomes responsible ... the age of accountability.
He does not serve God.
The Holy Spirit will not operate in that person UNTIL that person decides for God.


Jesus taught that we are to ABIDE IN HIM....
To dwell in Him and He in us.
This is a continuous action.

We can decide, at any moment, NOT to dwell in Jesus or He in us. (through the Holy Spirit).

Only a saved person has the Holy Spirit.
And tongues is NOT necessary.
A changed life is.


Catechism Part Two Section Two The Seven Sacrements Of The Church Chapter One The Sacraments Of Christian Initiation Article 1 The Sacrament Of Baptism VI. The Necessity Of Baptism
VI. The Necessity of Baptism
VI. The Necessity of Baptism
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.59 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.60 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.61 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.


1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.


1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.


1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."62 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.


1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"63 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

​

 

[Genez]

This is how highly Paul thought of the importance of water baptism...

I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius." 1 Cor 1:14​

​

.​

 

[Genez]

I'd love to know the number of the paragraph of the CCC.
I just can't remember this.

Just for those interested, i'm going to post what the CC teaches about baptism.

As to what you're interested in:

Tongues is a gift and has nothing to do with baptism.

Those who speak in tongues today are hypnotized people.
The Holy Spirit is not in it....

Not everyone can be hypnotized.
Only certain people can be.
Learned that from a hypnotist.

 

[James456]

I'd love to know the number of the paragraph of the CCC.
I just can't remember this.

Just for those interested, i'm going to post what the CC teaches about baptism.

As to what you're interested in:

Tongues is a gift and has nothing to do with baptism.
Some denomnations do teach about the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" as receiving tongues.
If this were true...90% of Christians do not have the Holy Spirit.
IOW...it's a false teaching and the early church NEVER believed this.

And yes, the Holy Spirit CANNOT reside in the unsaved.
I can show this by the very teaching of the CC that baptizes babies.

A baby is baptized.
He DOES receive the Holy Spirit.
The baby grows up and becomes responsible ... the age of accountability.
He does not serve God.
The Holy Spirit will not operate in that person UNTIL that person decides for God.


Jesus taught that we are to ABIDE IN HIM....
To dwell in Him and He in us.
This is a continuous action.

We can decide, at any moment, NOT to dwell in Jesus or He in us. (through the Holy Spirit).

Only a saved person has the Holy Spirit.
And tongues is NOT necessary.
A changed life is.


Catechism Part Two Section Two The Seven Sacrements Of The Church Chapter One The Sacraments Of Christian Initiation Article 1 The Sacrament Of Baptism VI. The Necessity Of Baptism
VI. The Necessity of Baptism
VI. The Necessity of Baptism
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.59 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.60 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.61 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.


1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.


1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.


1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."62 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.


1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"63 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

Thank you for that, and for confirming what has been my concern in this thread. And I agree with you, Cornelius was saved before he ever heard the message
Im afraid I cannot help you with the catechism, I don't know enough about that. I just googled God is not bound by his sacraments in catholic doctrine, and posted what came up. But a catholic on another website repeated the same thing to me.

 

[Toknow]

Those who speak in tongues today are hypnotized people.
The Holy Spirit is not in it....

Not everyone can be hypnotized.
Only certain people can be.
Learned that from a hypnotist.

Paul's main ministry was to set up churches in different towns/cities
and to teach about jesus and the Christian religion.
Which he did rather well I'd say.

As to tongues....
Paul said they're a gift.
We do not each have the same gift.

See, we either believe all of the bible or none of it.

Some are faking it because they need to remain in their chosen denomination.
Too bad for them.


Romans 12:4-8
4 For just as we have many parts in one body and all [f]the body’s parts do not have the same function,
5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually parts of one another.
6 However, since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to use them properly: if prophecy, [g]in proportion to one’s faith;
7 if [h]service, in the act of serving; or the one who teaches, in the act of teaching;
8 or the one who [i]exhorts, in the work of [j]exhortation; the one who gives, with [k]generosity; the one who [l]is in leadership, with diligence; the one who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.


1 Corinthians 12:4-10
4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.
6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.
7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
9 to another faith [f]by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of [g]healing [h]by the one Spirit,
10 and to another the [i]effecting of [j]miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the [k]distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.

 

[mailmandan]

Just a comment,,,we've been in this rodeo too many times to repeat.

You said this to the other member:

". I'm surprised that you don't "add" must have hands laid on you in order to be saved as well through your cherry-picking method of hermeneutics."

Here's why the laying on of hands is not necessary in order to be saved......:

BECAUSE the NT does not teach this.

It DOES teach that we are to be baptized.
We can debate why....which I doubt any of us really understands...
The NT does speak of baptism in realtion to salvation.

Jesus said to do it...
and that's a COMMAND...

We must (yes MUST) OBEY Jesus since we are born again believers.

Jesus said we are to ACT on His words in order to be saved.
Matthew 7:24

Baptism is AN ACTION that we perform.

And we are to OBEY JESUS.

Ananias to Paul:

Acts 22:16
14 And he said, ‘The God of our fathers has appointed you to know His will and to see the Righteous One and to hear a [j]message from His mouth.

15 For you will be a witness for Him to all people of what you have seen and heard.

16 Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins by calling on His name.’

Acts 2:37-38
37 Now when they heard this, they were [ao]pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “[ap]Brothers, what are we to do?”

38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Repent AND be baptized.

Matthew 7:23 - And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who PRACTICE lawlessness’... in contrast with putting the words of Jesus into PRACTICE. (Matthew 7:24) As we read on from Matthew 7:24 through verse 27, we find two different foundations with two different results, and not salvation by works, as some would suppose.

Each house has a different material upon which its foundation is laid, and each house has a different final outcome. One house is built by a wise man upon a rock and it stands. The other is built by a foolish man upon the sand and it collapses. The rock the wise man builds upon is true righteousness found in Jesus Christ alone. The sand the foolish man builds upon is self-righteousness.

Only those who truly believe in Him (demonstrative evidence) are wise and hear the words of Jesus and properly act on them. Also, keep in mind that in context, Jesus is discussing false prophets. (Matthew 7:15-23)

Now Acts 2:38 must be read alongside verses like (Luke 24:47; Acts 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18) in which we find that forgiveness is explicitly tied to repentance/belief/faith and not baptism. You must consider the totality of scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine.

In Acts 22:16, the cleansing happens as he calls on Christ, not by the water itself. The water is symbolic; the appeal to Christ’s name is the saving act. Romans 10:13 - For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The remission of sins has three applications: 1. Literally, by the blood of Christ - Matthew 26:28 2. Experientially, by faith in Christ - Acts 26:18 3. Figuratively, by water baptism - Acts 22:16

Excellent article on Acts 22:16 - WHAT IS TRUTH: Acts 22:16--Baptism Essential for Salvation?

*So, the only logical and Biblical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18) *Perfect Harmony*

 

[Toknow]

Thank you for that, and for confirming what has been my concern in this thread. And I agree with you, Cornelius was saved before he ever heard the message
Im afraid I cannot help you with the catechism, I don't know enough about that. I just googled God is not bound by his sacraments in catholic doctrine, and posted what came up. But a catholic on another website repeated the same thing to me.

I used to teach from the Catechism....which doesn't mean much...
I just can't remember this statement (but I could be wrong, but I doubt it).

And just to repeat since I'm new here...
I'm not Catholic - just for transparency.

Not that there's anything wrong with it ...

 

[Genez]

Paul's main ministry was to set up churches in different towns/cities
and to teach about jesus and the Christian religion.
Which he did rather well I'd say.

As to tongues....
Paul said they're a gift.
We do not each have the same gift.

See, we either believe all of the bible or none of it.

Some are faking it because they need to remain in their chosen denomination.
Too bad for them.


Romans 12:4-8
4 For just as we have many parts in one body and all [f]the body’s parts do not have the same function,
5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually parts of one another.
6 However, since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to use them properly: if prophecy, [g]in proportion to one’s faith;
7 if [h]service, in the act of serving; or the one who teaches, in the act of teaching;
8 or the one who [i]exhorts, in the work of [j]exhortation; the one who gives, with [k]generosity; the one who [l]is in leadership, with diligence; the one who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.


1 Corinthians 12:4-10
4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.
6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.
7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
9 to another faith [f]by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of [g]healing [h]by the one Spirit,
10 and to another the [i]effecting of [j]miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the [k]distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.

The problem I have with those who end up in tongues is all the false doctrines they get sucked into....

 

[Toknow]

Matthew 7:23 - And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who PRACTICE lawlessness’... in contrast with putting the words of Jesus into PRACTICE. (Matthew 7:24) As we read on from Matthew 7:24 through verse 27, we find two different foundations with two different results, and not salvation by works, as some would suppose.

Each house has a different material upon which its foundation is laid, and each house has a different final outcome. One house is built by a wise man upon a rock and it stands. The other is built by a foolish man upon the sand and it collapses. The rock the wise man builds upon is true righteousness found in Jesus Christ alone. The sand the foolish man builds upon is self-righteousness.

Only those who truly believe in Him (demonstrative evidence) are wise and hear the words of Jesus and properly act on them. Also, keep in mind that in context, Jesus is discussing false prophets. (Matthew 7:15-23)

Now Acts 2:38 must be read alongside verses like (Luke 24:47; Acts 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18) in which we find that forgiveness is explicitly tied to repentance/belief/faith and not baptism. You must consider the totality of scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine.

In Acts 22:16, the cleansing happens as he calls on Christ, not by the water itself. The water is symbolic; the appeal to Christ’s name is the saving act. Romans 10:13 - For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The remission of sins has three applications: 1. Literally, by the blood of Christ - Matthew 26:28 2. Experientially, by faith in Christ - Acts 26:18 3. Figuratively, by water baptism - Acts 22:16

Excellent article on Acts 22:16 - WHAT IS TRUTH: Acts 22:16--Baptism Essential for Salvation?

*So, the only logical and Biblical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18) *Perfect Harmony*

So...
once again...

You're actually going to try to convince those reading along that we DO NOT need to obey Jesus?

OK.

 

[Toknow]

The problem I have with those who end up in tongues is all the false doctrines they get sucked into....

I agree.

I've often said that an incorrect belief about anything...
will always lead to incorrect theology.

Any teaching must be reconciled with ALL of the NT...

and without trying to twist words..which some on here do.
They take a SIMPLE AND CLEAR statement -even by JESUS -
and attempt to explain it away in order to make it suit THEIR belief system.

 

[James456]

I used to teach from the Catechism....which doesn't mean much...
I just can't remember this statement (but I could be wrong, but I doubt it).

And just to repeat since I'm new here...
I'm not Catholic - just for transparency.

Not that there's anything wrong with it ...

Well I enjoy reading your posts, and we may not agree about everything, but Im sure we do about what matters most. But then, these sites would cease to exist if we all believed identically the same wouldn't they

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Lol. I should have been more specific about the baptism question. My bad.

I have heard of seven baptisms. You have me curious now with thirteen.

Precious friend, here ya go; please be Encouraged And Edified:

God's ONE Baptism For His Body!
+
12 of Israel's baptisms...

 

[mailmandan]

So...
once again...

You're actually going to try to convince those reading along that we DO NOT need to obey Jesus?

OK.

Obedience is not forced or legalistic for those who are born of God. (1 John 3:7-10) It's not about must or else but WILL.