The book of Job

[tttallison]

Do you understand the concept of cause and effect? In the context of Job, the *cause* would be if Job had sinned -- and the *effect* would be that he is punished. God says Job suffered "without cause" -- and yet he was being punished anyway *as if* he had sinned. That is the fundamental crux of this story.

So if Job suffered the first test "without cause" --- and he passed it with flying colors --- then there is even LESS cause for him to suffer a second test, regardless of whether or not you think he passed it.

According to your interpretation then (with which I disagree) you are putting the effect before the cause. That's not how cause and effect works. Do you understand that? You are taking this story and rearranging the order of events to suit your interpretation. It doesn't work.

Your rationalization would be correct if it was just man that was involved here, but it isn't. A man would not know Job's heart, but God does. God knew Job would pass the first test, and God knew Job would fail the second test. God knew what it would take to get Job's attention. The first test was to let us know how upright Job was. How many people would bless God after losing ten children?

God's purpose was to try and save Job's soul. You believe Job was assured of salvation from the beginning, but if he wasn't, then what I am saying makes sense. Job said he didn't know how to be right with God, he didn't know who or where God was, and he had only known God by the hearing of the ear. Job had no personal relationship with God. I do not see how Job could have been saved.

I have some questions I would wish you to answer, if you don't mind?

Do you acknowledge that there were two tests?

Do you acknowledge that Job blessed God after the first test?

Do you acknowledge that Job did not bless God after the second test?

 

[christophernyc]

Your rationalization would be correct if it was just man that was involved here, but it isn't. A man would not know Job's heart, but God does. God knew Job would pass the first test, and God knew Job would fail the second test. God knew what it would take to get Job's attention. The first test was to let us know how upright Job was. How many people would bless God after losing ten children?

God's purpose was to try and save Job's soul. You believe Job was assured of salvation from the beginning, but if he wasn't, then what I am saying makes sense. Job said he didn't know how to be right with God, he didn't know who or where God was, and he had only known God by the hearing of the ear. Job had no personal relationship with God. I do not see how Job could have been saved.

I have some questions I would wish you to answer, if you don't mind?

Do you acknowledge that there were two tests?

Do you acknowledge that Job blessed God after the first test?

Do you acknowledge that Job did not bless God after the second test?

So if you are throwing out the rationalize of cause and effect, then I guess anyone could invent anything they want regarding this story. It's seems that's what you have done, inventing secret motives of Job's heart, and offering conjecture about ulterior designs by God as to why he allowed Job to suffer --- none of which are written in the text. None.

The foundation for your interpretation is faulty. You're making up a different story that what has been written.

The fact that you have determined to contradict the character description given of Job **by God** is just bizarre on its face. Nobody has to conduct mental gymnastics to try and undo what is clearly told to the reader in chapters 1 & 2.

The fact there are two separate attacks or tests is not in dispute and has never been in dispute for me. Is that what you think?

The accusation by satan was that if Job were to suffer he would curse God to His face. Job loses his possessions -- and he does not curse God to His face. Job loses his health and believes he will die soon -- and he does not curse God to His face. Job *perseveres* through his trials and tribulations and grows and matures in his faith, just as the apostle James makes clear in his epistle.

I'll take the opinion of James above anyone in this chat no matter how clever their argument.

 

[tttallison]

So if you are throwing out the rationalize of cause and effect, then I guess anyone could invent anything they want regarding this story. It's seems that's what you have done, inventing secret motives of Job's heart, and offering conjecture about ulterior designs by God as to why he allowed Job to suffer --- none of which are written in the text. None.

The foundation for your interpretation is faulty. You're making up a different story that what has been written.

The fact that you have determined to contradict the character description given of Job **by God** is just bizarre on its face. Nobody has to conduct mental gymnastics to try and undo what is clearly told to the reader in chapters 1 & 2.

The fact there are two separate attacks or tests is not in dispute and has never been in dispute for me. Is that what you think?

The accusation by satan was that if Job were to suffer he would curse God to His face. Job loses his possessions -- and he does not curse God to His face. Job loses his health and believes he will die soon -- and he does not curse God to His face. Job *perseveres* through his trials and tribulations and grows and matures in his faith, just as the apostle James makes clear in his epistle.

I'll take the opinion of James above anyone in this chat no matter how clever their argument.

You say I am inventing secret motives of Job's heart.

Eliphaz did the exact same thing.

Job 15:12-14 Why doth thine heart carry thee away? and what do thy eyes wink at, That thou turnest thy spirit against God, and lettest such words go out of thy mouth? What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

Job said,-- Job 27:6 My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live.

Job didn't know his own heart, for later he said, Job 40:4 "Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth." and Job 42:6 "Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes".

God said,--Isa 44:20 He feeds on ashes; A deceived heart has turned him aside; And he cannot deliver his soul, Nor say, “Is there not a lie in my right hand?” (Remember when Job scraped himself with a potsherd while sitting in ashes.) God said,--Job 40:14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

Job 3:1 After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day.





















Job 27:7 Let mine enemy be as the wicked, and he that riseth up against me as the unrighteous.

Job 33:10 Behold, he findeth occasions against me, he counteth me for his enemy,

 

[tttallison]

So if you are throwing out the rationalize of cause and effect, then I guess anyone could invent anything they want regarding this story. It's seems that's what you have done, inventing secret motives of Job's heart, and offering conjecture about ulterior designs by God as to why he allowed Job to suffer --- none of which are written in the text. None.

The foundation for your interpretation is faulty. You're making up a different story that what has been written.

The fact that you have determined to contradict the character description given of Job **by God** is just bizarre on its face. Nobody has to conduct mental gymnastics to try and undo what is clearly told to the reader in chapters 1 & 2.

The fact there are two separate attacks or tests is not in dispute and has never been in dispute for me. Is that what you think?

The accusation by satan was that if Job were to suffer he would curse God to His face. Job loses his possessions -- and he does not curse God to His face. Job loses his health and believes he will die soon -- and he does not curse God to His face. Job *perseveres* through his trials and tribulations and grows and matures in his faith, just as the apostle James makes clear in his epistle.

I'll take the opinion of James above anyone in this chat no matter how clever their argument.

I can understand your skepticism, because what I am saying is different from what you have ever heard about Job. Our opinions get cemented in stone.

Have you wondered why the two tests are word for word except for where there was an actual difference. If the translators had used the actual meaning of the Hebrew words "barak" and "lo" it would be much easier to understand. "Barak" always means "bless", and "lo" is always a negative, or "not". Why the translators chose the dysphemistic word curse I do not know, especially since there is 7 different Hebrew words that actually mean curse. Job used one of them in
Job 3:1 After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day. Strong's H7043 - qālal There is also Job 5:3 I have seen the foolish taking root: but suddenly I cursed his habitation. Strong's H6895 - qāḇaḇ There is also
Job 24:18 He is swift as the waters; their portion is cursed in the earth: he beholdeth not the way of the vineyards. Strong's H7043 - qālal

בָרֲכֶךָּבָּרַךְbāraḵ h3808 Bless

​

לֹאלֹאlō' h1288 Not

In the first test Job blessed God, and in the second test Job did not bless God. It is undeniable.

​

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I don't believe you have been discussing the second test.

??? ... the attack from satan beginning at Job 2:7 has been discussed at length by me in this thread.

I haven't heard whether you agreed that there were two tests, or whether there were not two tests.

In Job 1, God restrained satan ...

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.


In Job 2, God restrained satan ...

Job 2:6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.


what you call "tests", I refer to as attacks from satan.

.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

God spoke of leviathan (Job 41:1) ... leviathan is also mentioned in Psalm 74:14, Psalm 104:26, and Isaiah 27:1. these verses indicate leviathan is a creature in the sea.

Is Satan just a snake?

Beginning in Job 38, God spoke to Job concerning creation ... and God spoke concerning some of the birds/land animals/sea life He created and knows intimately ...

Job 38:39-40 – lions
Job 38:41 – ravens
Job 39:1-4 – goats
Job 39:5-8 – donkeys
Job 39:9-12 – oxen
Job 39:13-17 – peacock/ostrich
Job 39:18-25 – horse
Job 39:26-30 – hawk/eagle
Job 40:1-14 – already discussed here
Job 40:15-24 – behemoth
Job 41 - leviathan

Throughout these chapters, God spoke of the physical creation and birds/beasts/sea creature (leviathan). I do not believe God asked Job "if he was going to take Satan for a servant forever" ... nor do I believe God asked Job "if he was going to make a covenant with Satan" as you claimed in Post 95.

God revealed to Job that He alone is over all ... He alone created ... He alone understands that which He created ... He alone is watchful over creation. Job, in his finiteness could never fully comprehend as God does in His infiniteness ... and we are in the same boat as Job. We only know what God reveals to us and God revealed to us that Job was under attack from satan ... something Job and his friends did not know.

Genesis 3. How does a fish behold all high things. If you accept that the serpent in the garden was Satan then how do you deny Leviathan the crooked serpent.

Where in Job 41 did God refer to leviathan as a "crooked serpent"?

Are these not metaphors? Satan was beholding all high things in the beginning of the book of Job.

Job 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

Clearly Job was speaking of the heavens ... there is a constellation in the heavens called serpens (serpent).

Isa 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. (Is Israel a bird?)

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Job 41:8-9 Lay thine hand upon him, remember the battle, do no more. Behold, the hope of him is in vain: shall not one be cast down even at the sight of him?

Job 41:3 Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee? Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?

Job 41:8 Lay thine hand upon him, remember the battle, do no more.

Job 41:33 Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear.

Job 41:34 He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.

you and I know that Job was afflicted by satan ... not God. God restrained satan in both Job 1 and Job 2. Job successfully endured the onslaught.

You believe Job failed.
I believe Job withstood.

.

 

[tttallison]

??? ... the attack from satan beginning at Job 2:7 has been discussed at length by me in this thread.





In Job 1, God restrained satan ...

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.


In Job 2, God restrained satan ...

Job 2:6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.


what you call "tests", I refer to as attacks from satan.

.

Yes there were two attacks by Satan, but it was God that presented Job to Satan knowing exactly what would happen. Are you of the opinion that God didn't have a purpose in what you call attacks by Satan, and what I call tests, or trials, by God.

 

[tttallison]

Beginning in Job 38, God spoke to Job concerning creation ... and God spoke concerning some of the birds/land animals/sea life He created and knows intimately ...

Job 38:39-40 – lions
Job 38:41 – ravens
Job 39:1-4 – goats
Job 39:5-8 – donkeys
Job 39:9-12 – oxen
Job 39:13-17 – peacock/ostrich
Job 39:18-25 – horse
Job 39:26-30 – hawk/eagle
Job 40:1-14 – already discussed here
Job 40:15-24 – behemoth
Job 41 - leviathan

Throughout these chapters, God spoke of the physical creation and birds/beasts/sea creature (leviathan). I do not believe God asked Job "if he was going to take Satan for a servant forever" ... nor do I believe God asked Job "if he was going to make a covenant with Satan" as you claimed in Post 95.

God revealed to Job that He alone is over all ... He alone created ... He alone understands that which He created ... He alone is watchful over creation. Job, in his finiteness could never fully comprehend as God does in His infiniteness ... and we are in the same boat as Job. We only know what God reveals to us and God revealed to us that Job was under attack from satan ... something Job and his friends did not know..

It would appear to me that anytime Job says something that doesn't fit the narrative you deny it. Even if God is saying it.

Where in Job 41 did God refer to leviathan as a "crooked serpent"?.

Isa 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea. Does Isaiah count?

Clearly Job was speaking of the heavens ... there is a constellation in the heavens called serpens (serpent).

So you are saying this sea creature observed the heavens, and he is king over all the children of pride?

you and I know that Job was afflicted by satan ... not God. God restrained satan in both Job 1 and Job 2. Job successfully endured the onslaught..

No I don't believe Satan was responsible for Job's affliction. I believe God used Satan for his own purpose. You are saying Job, his three friends, Elihu, the spirit, and myself are all wrong. And this is because it doesn't fit the narrative.

You believe Job failed.
I believe Job withstood..

I believe anybody who doesn't know God is headed for the pit. And if they don't convert that is worse than failure.

Job said, Job 9:24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Yes there were two attacks by Satan, but it was God that presented Job to Satan knowing exactly what would happen.

God knows the end from the beginning. God knew Job would withstand the attack ... satan did not.

Just like satan did not know that the Lord Jesus Christ would be victorious ... and that those who are born again from and after Day of Pentecost would have in them the greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world (1 John 4:4).

Are you of the opinion that God didn't have a purpose in what you call attacks by Satan, and what I call tests, or trials, by God.

who killed Job's servants (Job 1:15)? [hint ... not God]
who burned up Job's substance (Job 1:16)? [hint ... not God]
who killed Job's children (Job 1:19)? [hint ... not God]
who smote Job with boils (Job 2:7)? [hint ... not God]
who inflicted Job physically/emotionally/spiritually throughout the duration? [hint ... not God]


did God know what satan would do? [hint ... yes]
did God know what Job would do? [hint ... yes]

.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

It would appear to me that anytime Job says something that doesn't fit the narrative you deny it. Even if God is saying it.

Beginning at Job 38, the only words spoken by Job are found in Job 40:3-5 and Job 42:1-6.

God spoke the words I quoted in Post 106 ... not Job.

I have not denied anything spoken by God.

Isa 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea. Does Isaiah count?

So you are saying this sea creature observed the heavens, and he is king over all the children of pride?

what is written in Isaiah does not pertain to what is written in Job.

Job spoke of a constellation in the heavens in Job 26:13.

Isaiah spoke of deliverance of Israel in Isaiah 27:1 ... partially fulfilled under Cyrus when he allowed the Israelites to return to Jerusalem to build the temple. There is yet a future fulfillment to the prophecy of Isaiah.

No I don't believe Satan was responsible for Job's affliction. I believe God used Satan for his own purpose.

God did not afflict Job ... satan did.

All God did was remove His hedge from around Job and restrain satan from killing Job.

You are saying Job, his three friends, Elihu, the spirit, and myself are all wrong. And this is because it doesn't fit the narrative.

I am reading straight from Scripture.

All 4 of them ... Job, Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, and Elihu ... spoke some truth and there is some wisdom in all of their words. But where satan was concerned, they all lacked wisdom/information, and they all spoke ignorantly.

I believe anybody who doesn't know God is headed for the pit. And if they don't convert that is worse than failure.

agree.

Job said, Job 9:24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?

things haven't changed much since days of Job. the wicked are out in full force in our day and time ... the judicial system is practically nonexistent ...

one of these days our Righteous Judge shall appear and make right all that is wrong.

.

 

[christophernyc]

I can understand your skepticism, because what I am saying is different from what you have ever heard about Job. Our opinions get cemented in stone.

Have you wondered why the two tests are word for word except for where there was an actual difference. If the translators had used the actual meaning of the Hebrew words "barak" and "lo" it would be much easier to understand. "Barak" always means "bless", and "lo" is always a negative, or "not". Why the translators chose the dysphemistic word curse I do not know, especially since there is 7 different Hebrew words that actually mean curse. Job used one of them in
Job 3:1 After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day. Strong's H7043 - qālal There is also Job 5:3 I have seen the foolish taking root: but suddenly I cursed his habitation. Strong's H6895 - qāḇaḇ There is also
Job 24:18 He is swift as the waters; their portion is cursed in the earth: he beholdeth not the way of the vineyards. Strong's H7043 - qālal

בָרֲכֶךָּבָּרַךְbāraḵ h3808 Bless

​

לֹאלֹאlō' h1288 Not

In the first test Job blessed God, and in the second test Job did not bless God. It is undeniable.

Not sure if you have shared any response regarding the mention of Job and the context in the epistle of James? Did I miss it? If not, is there a reason you haven't written one? The pertinency for this thread is that the OP asked specifically about other Scripture, and in the epistle by James we have a concrete reference to Job. It stands to reason then that you must have considered the passage in James 5, no?

Regarding your interpretation, I wouldn't call it skepticism. It's just pointing out the omissions of the text and the added insertions you have made to foist up your interpretation.

No, your conjecture about what I have heard about Job is inaccurate. I have seen other haters of Job and lovers of Elihu aplenty.

Yes, I see you listed verses to supposedly support your views. However, the verses are coming out of different contexts. For example, some of the references are for people being punished for their sin. However, Job is not being punished and suffering because of his sin. How do we know this? Because it's written in the text in chapters 1 & 2 for anyone to read.

 

[tttallison]

God knows the end from the beginning. God knew Job would withstand the attack ... satan did not.

Just like satan did not know that the Lord Jesus Christ would be victorious ... and that those who are born again from and after Day of Pentecost would have in them the greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world (1 John 4:4).





who killed Job's servants (Job 1:15)? [hint ... not God]
who burned up Job's substance (Job 1:16)? [hint ... not God]
who killed Job's children (Job 1:19)? [hint ... not God]
who smote Job with boils (Job 2:7)? [hint ... not God]
who inflicted Job physically/emotionally/spiritually throughout the duration? [hint ... not God]


did God know what satan would do? [hint ... yes]
did God know what Job would do? [hint ... yes]

.

Why did God toss Job to Satan? God knew Job would lose everything including his children. Why did God toss Job to Satan a second time?

 

[tttallison]

Beginning at Job 38, the only words spoken by Job are found in Job 40:3-5 and Job 42:1-6.

God spoke the words I quoted in Post 106 ... not Job.

I have not denied anything spoken by God.





what is written in Isaiah does not pertain to what is written in Job.

Job spoke of a constellation in the heavens in Job 26:13.

Isaiah spoke of deliverance of Israel in Isaiah 27:1 ... partially fulfilled under Cyrus when he allowed the Israelites to return to Jerusalem to build the temple. There is yet a future fulfillment to the prophecy of Isaiah.





God did not afflict Job ... satan did.

All God did was remove His hedge from around Job and restrain satan from killing Job.





I am reading straight from Scripture.

All 4 of them ... Job, Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, and Elihu ... spoke some truth and there is some wisdom in all of their words. But where satan was concerned, they all lacked wisdom/information, and they all spoke ignorantly.





agree.





things haven't changed much since days of Job. the wicked are out in full force in our day and time ... the judicial system is practically nonexistent ...

one of these days our Righteous Judge shall appear and make right all that is wrong.

.

Job 41:30 is a picture of Job, the potsherd, being threshed into the miry clay(or pit) by Satan(leviathan).

Job 41:30 Sharp H2303 stones H2789 are under him: H8478 he spreadeth H7502 sharp pointed things H2742 upon H5921 the mire. H2916

Can you take a few minutes away from being the guardian of Job to examine this verse with an open mind?

According to Strong’s there are seven Hebrew words in this verse. Let’s examine them and see what we can learn.

Strong's H2303 - ḥadûḏ Adjective and occurs only one time in the Bible. The adjective applies to Job. The English translation is sharp

Strong's H2789 - ḥereś Masculine noun and occurs seventeen times in sixteen verses. The earliest it occurs is in Leviticus 6:28, and refers to the earthen vessel that has held the sin offering, which therefore must be broken into potsherds. The following is what God has to say about potsherds.-----

Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

If we go back to the first test we see that Job did not strive with God for it says, Job 1:22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly. But later we see that Job did strive with God. Job 40:2

Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it. The English word contendeth is the same Hebrew word that we find in Isaiah 45:9 that is translated striveth. Job is the earthen vessel that contained sin and had to be broken. (potsherd)

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Strong's H8478 - taḥaṯ Accusative adverb and occurs 511 times. Means Job, the potsherd, was under leviathan.

Strong's H7502 - rāp̄aḏ A verb that occurs three times. The following are the two times it occurs in Job.

Job 17:13 If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made H7502 my bed in the darkness.

Job 41:30 Sharp stones are under him: he spreadeth H7502 sharp pointed things upon the mire.

Job has made his bed in darkness under leviathan.

Strong's H2742 - ḥārûṣ Masculine noun that occurs 18 times, none prior to Psalms. The picture we are given is of a refiner, as one who removes the dross to make fine gold. It is the potter reshaping the earthen vessel because of sin. The potter is using leviathan as the threshing machine to get rid of the dross from Job. To make Job whole. To get rid of the mire. Do you remember Job sitting in a pile of ashes that have formed from a potsherd.



Strong's H5921 - ʿal A preposition that occurs 5,781 times. (Upon)

Strong's H2916 - ṭîṭ A masculine noun that occurs 13 times. It is another late word that first occurs in 2Samuel 22:43 2Samuel chapter 22 is a repeat of Psalms 18.

The following verse speaks of the mire.

Psa 40:2 He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of H2916 the miry clay, H2916 and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.

A picture of David’s salvation. The rock is Christ. It is also a picture of Job’s salvation. Think on these verses of Elihu.

Job 33:23 If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness: This was the fault of the three friends. They had not told Job that he needed God’s righteousness.

Job 33:24 Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom. God’s righteousness and the ransom are one in the same. They are Jesus.

Job 33:25 His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth: A picture of being born again.

John3:4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

 

[christophernyc]

Job 41:30 is a picture of Job, the potsherd, being threshed into the miry clay(or pit) by Satan(leviathan).

Job 41:30 Sharp H2303 stones H2789 are under him: H8478 he spreadeth H7502 sharp pointed things H2742 upon H5921 the mire. H2916

Can you take a few minutes away from being the guardian of Job to examine this verse with an open mind?

According to Strong’s there are seven Hebrew words in this verse. Let’s examine them and see what we can learn.

Strong's H2303 - ḥadûḏ Adjective and occurs only one time in the Bible. The adjective applies to Job. The English translation is sharp

Strong's H2789 - ḥereś Masculine noun and occurs seventeen times in sixteen verses. The earliest it occurs is in Leviticus 6:28, and refers to the earthen vessel that has held the sin offering, which therefore must be broken into potsherds. The following is what God has to say about potsherds.-----

Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

If we go back to the first test we see that Job did not strive with God for it says, Job 1:22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly. But later we see that Job did strive with God. Job 40:2

Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it. The English word contendeth is the same Hebrew word that we find in Isaiah 45:9 that is translated striveth. Job is the earthen vessel that contained sin and had to be broken. (potsherd)

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Strong's H8478 - taḥaṯ Accusative adverb and occurs 511 times. Means Job, the potsherd, was under leviathan.

Strong's H7502 - rāp̄aḏ A verb that occurs three times. The following are the two times it occurs in Job.

Job 17:13 If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made H7502 my bed in the darkness.

Job 41:30 Sharp stones are under him: he spreadeth H7502 sharp pointed things upon the mire.

Job has made his bed in darkness under leviathan.

Strong's H2742 - ḥārûṣ Masculine noun that occurs 18 times, none prior to Psalms. The picture we are given is of a refiner, as one who removes the dross to make fine gold. It is the potter reshaping the earthen vessel because of sin. The potter is using leviathan as the threshing machine to get rid of the dross from Job. To make Job whole. To get rid of the mire. Do you remember Job sitting in a pile of ashes that have formed from a potsherd.



Strong's H5921 - ʿal A preposition that occurs 5,781 times. (Upon)

Strong's H2916 - ṭîṭ A masculine noun that occurs 13 times. It is another late word that first occurs in 2Samuel 22:43 2Samuel chapter 22 is a repeat of Psalms 18.

The following verse speaks of the mire.

Psa 40:2 He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of H2916 the miry clay, H2916 and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.

A picture of David’s salvation. The rock is Christ. It is also a picture of Job’s salvation. Think on these verses of Elihu.

Job 33:23 If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness: This was the fault of the three friends. They had not told Job that he needed God’s righteousness.

Job 33:24 Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom. God’s righteousness and the ransom are one in the same. They are Jesus.

Job 33:25 His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth: A picture of being born again.

John3:4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Job 41:30 is a detailed description of the flesh of the leviathan. That's it. The point is to express the terrifying existence of this creature.

Side note, I do not totally disagree with your view of leviathan symbolizing satan or a serpent. I've seen parallels there, too, but will not discuss now.

As for Job scraping himself in Job 2:8, here is something from "Pulpit Commentary" on Biblehub.com:

Verse 8. - And he took him a potsherd to scrape himself withal. "The surface of the integuments," says Dr. Quain, "is often much inflamed, and sometimes discharges a serous ichor, or chyle-like fluid, according to the extent to which the lymphatics are engaged in the particular ease" (ibid., p. 432). This "serous or lymph-like fluid" is occasionally "acrid and offensive." Job seems to have used his potsherd to scrape it away.

Anyway, what is interesting is that you have been drawing parallels with Job's story from Scripture that does not mention Job. At the same time, have you referenced other Scriptures that actually does reference Job?

Again, the parallels you claim to have found with Job are from totally **different contexts**. Like Job's friends, they may have said things that were generally "right" but the **application** of those things for Job's situation was totally wrong. It appears you are doing the exact same as his friends as to why Job is suffering.

But what is your response about other Scripture that blatantly refers to Job? Do you have any at all?

James 5:10-11
As an example, brothers and sisters, of sufferingand patience, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. We count thoseblessed who endured. You have heard of the endurance of Job and have seen the outcome of the Lord’s dealings, that the Lord is full of compassion and is merciful.

Ezekiel 14:12-14
Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, “Son of man, if a country sins against Me by being unfaithful, and I stretch out My hand against it, destroy its supply of bread, send famine against it, and eliminate from it both human and animal life, even though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job were in its midst, by their own righteousness they could only save themselves,” declares the Lord GOD.

Is the Lord speaking of Job in a positive or negative way?

Do you have anything to say about other Scripture which actually mentions Job?

 

[tttallison]

Job 41:30 is a detailed description of the flesh of the leviathan. That's it. The point is to express the terrifying existence of this creature.

Side note, I do not totally disagree with your view of leviathan symbolizing satan or a serpent. I've seen parallels there, too, but will not discuss now.

As for Job scraping himself in Job 2:8, here is something from "Pulpit Commentary" on Biblehub.com:

Verse 8. - And he took him a potsherd to scrape himself withal. "The surface of the integuments," says Dr. Quain, "is often much inflamed, and sometimes discharges a serous ichor, or chyle-like fluid, according to the extent to which the lymphatics are engaged in the particular ease" (ibid., p. 432). This "serous or lymph-like fluid" is occasionally "acrid and offensive." Job seems to have used his potsherd to scrape it away.

Anyway, what is interesting is that you have been drawing parallels with Job's story from Scripture that does not mention Job. At the same time, have you referenced other Scriptures that actually does reference Job?

Again, the parallels you claim to have found with Job are from totally **different contexts**. Like Job's friends, they may have said things that were generally "right" but the **application** of those things for Job's situation was totally wrong. It appears you are doing the exact same as his friends as to why Job is suffering.

But what is your response about other Scripture that blatantly refers to Job? Do you have any at all?

James 5:10-11
As an example, brothers and sisters, of sufferingand patience, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. We count thoseblessed who endured. You have heard of the endurance of Job and have seen the outcome of the Lord’s dealings, that the Lord is full of compassion and is merciful.

Ezekiel 14:12-14
Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, “Son of man, if a country sins against Me by being unfaithful, and I stretch out My hand against it, destroy its supply of bread, send famine against it, and eliminate from it both human and animal life, even though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job were in its midst, by their own righteousness they could only save themselves,” declares the Lord GOD.

Is the Lord speaking of Job in a positive or negative way?

Do you have anything to say about other Scripture which actually mentions Job?

Jas 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

Job was very patient. If I had lost all my children, I don’t know that I would still have been reaching out to God. Patience is an attribute, but it does not automatically compute to salvation. Isn’t this the point. God presented the most self-righteous person to show us that no matter how good we are, we are not good enough to save ourselves. “There is none righteous, no not one.”

When God presented Job as perfect and upright to Satan, God was setting Job up to fail. God knew he would fail because he knew Job’s pride. God did this to save Job’s soul.

Let’s look at Job’s pride.

Job said, Job 27:6 My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live.

God said, Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

Job 29:7-11 When I went out to the gate through the city, when I prepared my seat in the street! The young men saw me, and hid themselves: and the aged arose, and stood up. The princes refrained talking, and laid their hand on their mouth.When the ear heard me, then it blessed me; and when the eye saw me, it gave witness to me;

When anyone heard Job they blessed him? REALLY? And yet Job couldn’t find it in his heart to bless God after the second test.

Both James and Ezekiel were positive.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Why did God toss Job to Satan? God knew Job would lose everything including his children. Why did God toss Job to Satan a second time?

Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

James 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

Job teaches us to persevere under affliction ... to keep our focus on God and His Word ... to hold to Him when the circumstances of this life are seemingly unbearable ... God will make good on His promises and those who endure will receive the tender mercies of God.


Psalm 25:4-6 Shew me thy ways, O LORD; teach me thy paths. Lead me in thy truth, and teach me: for thou art the God of my salvation; on thee do I wait all the day. Remember, O LORD, thy tender mercies and thy lovingkindnesses; for they have been ever of old.

.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Job 41:30 is a picture of Job, the potsherd, being threshed into the miry clay(or pit) by Satan(leviathan).

Job 41:30 Sharp H2303 stones H2789 are under him: H8478 he spreadeth H7502 sharp pointed things H2742 upon H5921 the mire. H2916

Job 41:30 depicts the hide of leviathan as being impenetrable. The hide of leviathan was seemingly invincible. No sword, spear, dart, javelin, arrow, sling-stone, (Job 15:26-29) was successful against leviathan. leviathan was a formidable aquatic creature and no weapon could bring him down. God reminded Job that He, as Creator, is greater than that which He created.

Can you take a few minutes away from being the guardian of Job to examine this verse with an open mind?

I am reading God's Word straight from the text.

Beginning in chapter 38, God described creation and creatures within creation to Job. leviathan was a mighty creature which God had created. God's purpose was to show Job the incomparable greatness of God and His ways compared to man's weakness and man's ways.

According to Strong’s there are seven Hebrew words in this verse. Let’s examine them and see what we can learn.

Strong's H2303 - ḥadûḏ Adjective and occurs only one time in the Bible. The adjective applies to Job. The English translation is sharp

The adjective applies to leviathan.

Strong's H2789 - ḥereś Masculine noun and occurs seventeen times in sixteen verses. The earliest it occurs is in Leviticus 6:28, and refers to the earthen vessel that has held the sin offering, which therefore must be broken into potsherds.

In Job 41:30, the word describes the underside of leviathan. Look at the verse in other translations of Scripture:

New International Version
Its undersides are jagged potsherds, leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge.

New Living Translation
Its belly is covered with scales as sharp as glass. It plows up the ground as it drags through the mud.

English Standard Version
His underparts are like sharp potsherds; he spreads himself like a threshing sledge on the mire.

New American Standard Bible
“His underparts are like sharp pieces of pottery; He spreads out like a threshing sledge on the mud.

Amplified Bible
“His underparts are like sharp pieces of broken pottery; He moves across and spreads out [grooves] like a threshing sledge on the mire (muddy river banks).

American Standard Version
His underparts are like sharp potsherds: He spreadeth as it were a threshing-wain upon the mire.

English Revised Version
His underparts are like sharp potsherds: he spreadeth as it were a threshing wain upon the mire.

International Standard Version
"Beneath him he is armored as with sharp potsherds; he tears through muddy ground like a threshing sledge through grain.

NET Bible
Its underparts are the sharp points of potsherds, it leaves its mark in the mud like a threshing sledge.

The following is what God has to say about potsherds.-----

Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

This verse has nothing to do with leviathan having an underside like sharp potsherds.

If we go back to the first test we see that Job did not strive with God for it says, Job 1:22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly. But later we see that Job did strive with God. Job 40:2

Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it. The English word contendeth is the same Hebrew word that we find in Isaiah 45:9 that is translated striveth. Job is the earthen vessel that contained sin and had to be broken. (potsherd)

Every descendant of Adam sins.

in Job 40, we see Job's answer to God:

Job 40:1-5 Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said, Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it. Then Job answered the LORD, and said, Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth. Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Jeremiah 18 relates to the nation of Israel.

Individual word studies are beneficial; however, we must take into consideration the context within which the word being studied is placed. Just because the same word appears in various verses of Scripture, this does not mean the context is the same in the several uses of the word.


continued ...
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

... continued

Strong's H8478 - taḥaṯ Accusative adverb and occurs 511 times. Means Job, the potsherd, was under leviathan.

not so. God described leviathan in Job 41 so that Job would realize that God, as Creator, is so far above His creation that no one can fathom the depth of His might, nor come to the end of God's wisdom.

In Job 41, God was describing a creature of great might and power ... and God's power far surpasses the power of the thing created. God's wisdom in creation is fully observable and God's wisdom far exceeds the extent of man's wisdom. That is the point God made to Job beginning in chapter 38.

Strong's H7502 - rāp̄aḏ A verb that occurs three times. The following are the two times it occurs in Job.

Job 17:13 If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made H7502 my bed in the darkness.

Job 41:30 Sharp stones are under him: he spreadeth H7502 sharp pointed things upon the mire.

Job has made his bed in darkness under leviathan.

In Job 17, Job was speaking of his death. Perhaps Job thought he was dying, never to return to the life he lived prior to his affliction.

Job 17:13-15

13 If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.

14 I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister.

15 And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it?

vs 14 - the corruption spoken of here is the rotting of his flesh ... the word does not refer to any sin on Job's part.

vs 15 - Job was a believer and he spoke of his resurrection when he would see his Redeemer (Job 19:25-27).


I disagree with your interpretation of Job 41:30 (that Job "made his bed in darkness under leviathan") and I have provided my understanding of the verse above.

Strong's H2742 - ḥārûṣ Masculine noun that occurs 18 times, none prior to Psalms. The picture we are given is of a refiner, as one who removes the dross to make fine gold. It is the potter reshaping the earthen vessel because of sin. The potter is using leviathan as the threshing machine to get rid of the dross from Job. To make Job whole. To get rid of the mire. Do you remember Job sitting in a pile of ashes that have formed from a potsherd.

Again, I do not believe this is the intent of Job 41:30 as I have explained above.

As far as Job sitting in ashes, this was a sign of mourning. He had already lost his children, his servants, his holdings and then he was afflicted with boils.

Sitting in ashes was a sign of humility before God. Sitting in ashes also reveals deep mourning. When Jonah went to Ninevah and told the Ninevites that the city would be overthrown in 40 days, the people believed ... the king sat in ashes (Jonah 3:6). In Genesis 37:34, Jacob sat in ashes when he thought his son, Joseph, was dead. When Mordecai knew of the decree of the king to slay all the Israelites, he put on sackcloth and ashes (Esther 4:1).

Job scraped his skin with the potsherd to relieve the itch/pain, and drain the sores on his body. I have never had boils but my understanding is that they are very painful.

Strong's H5921 - ʿal A preposition that occurs 5,781 times. (Upon)

Strong's H2916 - ṭîṭ A masculine noun that occurs 13 times. It is another late word that first occurs in 2Samuel 22:43 2Samuel chapter 22 is a repeat of Psalms 18.

The following verse speaks of the mire.

Psa 40:2 He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of H2916 the miry clay, H2916 and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.

A picture of David’s salvation. The rock is Christ. It is also a picture of Job’s salvation.

As used in Job 41:30, what is described is the ground having been torn apart by the sharp scales on the underside of leviathan as leviathan moved through the mire.

Here is an image of a crocodile or an alligator leaving the ground torn up:

​

I'm not saying leviathan was a crocodile or an alligator, but the ground being torn up by the hide of an aquatic creature is clear.

Think on these verses of Elihu.

Job 33:23 If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness: This was the fault of the three friends. They had not told Job that he needed God’s righteousness.

Job 33:24 Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom. God’s righteousness and the ransom are one in the same. They are Jesus.

Job 33:25 His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth: A picture of being born again.

John3:4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Job believed in his Redeemer and Job believed he would see his Redeemer in a new body for his old body would be destroyed upon his death:

Job 19:25-27 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

.

 

[tttallison]

So you are saying an alligator beholds all high things, like when God met with his angels. And this alligator is king over all the children of pride.

It would appear you agree that Job was striving with God, because Job confessed he was vile. That would also mean that Isaiah 45:9 applices to Job. Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

Isa 44:20 He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand?

Job had a deceived heart. Under the first test Job did not sin. But under the second test Job did not sin with his lips. So what about his heart? Job well understood the two types of sinning, one with the lips, and one with the heart. Job though his sons had sinned in their hearts.

Job said many good scriptural things, but where was his heart. He condemned God so that he might be righteous.

Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

Actually Strong's H2303 - ḥadûḏ refers to Job and not leviathan. It refers to Job being a potsherd who is under, or being threshed, or refined by Satan.

You don't see God as the potter and mankind as the clay?

 

[christophernyc]

Jas 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

Job was very patient. If I had lost all my children, I don’t know that I would still have been reaching out to God. Patience is an attribute, but it does not automatically compute to salvation. Isn’t this the point. God presented the most self-righteous person to show us that no matter how good we are, we are not good enough to save ourselves. “There is none righteous, no not one.”

When God presented Job as perfect and upright to Satan, God was setting Job up to fail. God knew he would fail because he knew Job’s pride. God did this to save Job’s soul.

Let’s look at Job’s pride.

Job said, Job 27:6 My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live.

God said, Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

Job 29:7-11 When I went out to the gate through the city, when I prepared my seat in the street! The young men saw me, and hid themselves: and the aged arose, and stood up. The princes refrained talking, and laid their hand on their mouth.When the ear heard me, then it blessed me; and when the eye saw me, it gave witness to me;

When anyone heard Job they blessed him? REALLY? And yet Job couldn’t find it in his heart to bless God after the second test.

Both James and Ezekiel were positive.

Let me be more specific: does the Lord speak of Job being righteous in a positive or negative way in Ezekiel 14?

The fundamental difference in your point of view is that your claim is that Job is not "saved". But based on what is *in the text* we know Job already had a relationship established with God. Furthermore, if Job was solely relying on himself, why would he be crying out to God, asking God to show him his sin, and wanting to restore his relationship with God?

Why can you not accept that Job's relationship with God was established prior to his ordeal? Why do you insist on making it something else, which requires omissions of the text and forcing ideas and other Scripture out of context into the story?

Yes, Job was patient. Again, consider the epistle by James (where Job is mentioned by name in chapter 5) and the theme of suffering:

James 1:2-4
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

James 5:10-11
Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

Job's ordeal is not a coming-to-faith story. It is a story involving a testing of Job's faith *that existed prior to his ordeal*. The *trying* or *testing* of Job's faith worked patience for him, and in the end, his already established faith was rewarded. Why? Because he passed the tests. Both of them.

It's painfully obvious that Job was clearly not trusting in himself anyway. The reason he mentions those things about his life (chapter 29, for example) is because his friends were accusing him of wrongdoing. Again, he's not proclaiming these things to boast and brag like some proud person. He is arguing his case to his friends who are lying about him. (Look at Eliphaz's last speech where he completely fabricates evils that Job has committed with no basis whatsoever.)

If Job was as prideful and self-righteous, as you claim he is, then why in the world would he be turning to God, seeking Him, and asking God to point out his sin? It's illogical according to your own opinion of Job. Your own ideas are contradicting each other.

How do we know Job trusted God through his ordeal? As mentioned, because Job is seeking God and begging to know what went wrong in their relationship. If Job was "lost" as you believe, why wouldn't God just show him right away? But that's not what the story is about. No, it's about Job's faith being tested, and God's silence was part of that test.

Job also states clearly that he trusts in God in Job 13:15 where he says, "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him..."

As for Job 27:6, that is a continuation of Job's response to Bildad. For Job to admit he had committed a sin to incur his suffering would itself be a sin. Why? Because it would be a lie and contradict what God said from the beginning. Plus the friends are rebuked by God for not speaking what was right, as is obvious to anyone looking at the entirety of the story.

In Ezekiel 14, when God speaks of Job's righteousness, is it your belief that he is accusing Job of pride?

Also, how do you ascertain that Job's righteousness is a righteousness apart from God? God says Job fears God and shuns evil (the very definition of wisdom, by the way) and yet you infer this to mean something bad?

The perspective you espouse of Job and about this whole story is just bizarre. Have you ever considered taking what the text says at face value (specifically chapters 1 & 2) and moving on into the story from there?