The book of Job

[tttallison]

Job had been a humble servant, he never "exalted himself above God", he didn't even throw a temper tantrum at God like Moses did when the Israelites demanded water from the rock. In Job 1, Satan challenged God that Job only worshipped God for his wealth, he lost his prosperity, he'd lose faith in God. God accepted the challenge, removed the hedge of protection and gave Satan permission to wreak hovac in Job's life. What he experienced was a test of his faith, at no fault of his own. Then his three buddies came around, attributing his misfortune to his iniquity, which is basically like karma. Job rebuked them. So don't be like those three stooges sprinking salt on hiswound.

Have you compared the two tests of Job that show Job failed the second test?

Do you know that Eliphaz is the only one quoted in the New Testament?

Everything the three stooges said was true. Their problem was that they, like Job, did not know how to be right with God.

Did you know that God sent them to be witnesses against Job?

 

[christophernyc]

There were many theories on why Job suffered the things he suffered. God rebuked several of the people with the opinions.

However, in this thread I would like to look at what the rest of the Bible says to figure out what God's role was and why this happened.

1. God is omniscient. The book of Job makes it clear that He knew what Satan was planning to do.

2. God is omnipotent. The book of Job makes it clear that God allowed it to happen.

If you deny that God is omniscient then that is considered Blasphemy. If you deny that God is omnipotent that also is blasphemy.

3. God said this about Job: "8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?"

So that has to be part of your explanation, it can't contradict what God says here because God cannot lie.

Now we have promises from God in Psalm 91 and Deuteronomy 28 to protect us from evil. That is a covenant that we have with God.

How can you reconcile the covenant and promises we have with God with what happened? By all means use your own personal experiences if that helps explain this.

One of the strongest supports I have found in other parts of the Bible to help interpret the Book of Job is in the epistle written by the apostle James in the New Testament. One of the overarching themes of his letter aims at encouraging the believer to persevere during their trials, tribulations, and sufferings. This is how the book starts in James 1:2-4

My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

Notice he is addressing his brethren, or fellow believers in Christ.

Then near the end of his letter he finishes with that same theme again, saying:

Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord...Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

James specifically references Job by name and points him out on the heels of referencing the prophets. Reading chapters 1 & 2 of the Book of Job we know God allowed Job to undergo his suffering. As outlined by user "Reneweddaybyday" earlier in this thread, every reader of the Book of Job can see that Job's relationship with God was already established. Job's suffering then was a testing of Job's already existing faith.

So you ask why God would allow this to happen to him. One thought offering would be because, for one thing, it proved satan's claim to be false. Job would not curse God if he were to suffer the loss of all of his possessions and loss of his health. Satan is a liar, and Job's perseverance in his faith proves that. I think it also goes to show that God's connection with his creation is not transactional, but instead relational.

Another thought offering is that God used Job's suffering just as James mentions above. Job's faith was tried and it worked patience for him (James 1:2-4). God used it to make Job more mature and complete in his already established faith in God. In fact, it also seems Job is aware of this fact on some level when he says in Job 23:10

But He [God] knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold.

Hope this helps!

CM

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Yes, God called Job a servant. God also called Nebuchadnezzar a servant. Job explained to us the type of servant he was, which was a hired servant.

Nebuchadnezzar would not have been able to partake of the priest's portion spoken of in Leviticus 20.

What evidence do you have that Job lived long before Moses? The language is late and not early.

Job offered sacrifices directly to God as did the patriarchs who lived prior to the giving of the Old Covenant to Moses.

If Job had been under the Old Covenant, Job would have brought offerings to the priest, and the priest would have made offering on behalf of Job.

Job kept asking God to reveal to him any sin he had committed so he could repent. The Old Covenant makes provision for the offering for sins committed in ignorance (Lev 4). If this Covenant had been in place, Job would have followed accordingly.

In Job 42, God instructed Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar to bring sacrifices to Job ... not to a priest under Old Covenant ... and Job would pray for them (which is another function of a priest under Old Covenant).

What evidence do you have that Job lived during the time the Old Covenant was in place?

Isn't telling God that he would laugh at the trial of the innocence the same as declaring God unrighteous?

I do not believe so. The scourge that falls on the land affects all who live in the land and the scourge does not consider whether one is deserving of whatever injury the scrouge brings.

If and when calamity strikes ... a natural phenomenon (tornado, hurricane, tsunami, eartquake, etc., etc.) ... believers and nonbelievers alike are "destroyed" ... some lose their lives, some lose their homes and/or businesses, some lose their possessions. Job pointed out that God does not always intervene. God does not come to the rescue of either the innocent or the wicked. That is God's prerogative and some may conclude that God laughs in those circumstances. I do not believe God laughs in those times. I believe God helps those who trust in Him and while we may suffer for a season, when the affliction is removed, hopefully the believer has grown stronger in faith during that trying time.

The reason Job was discussing this line of reasoning was because Elphaz claimed in Job 4 and Bildad claimed in Job 8 that God would not bring calamity to the innocent. Therefore, according to both of them, Job had sinned and was reaping the consequence. But that is not what occurred ... satan afflicted Job in his foolish attempt to prove God wrong in His claim that Job was a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil.

.

 

[tttallison]

Nebuchadnezzar would not have been able to partake of the priest's portion spoken of in Leviticus 20..

You may have been referring to a different chapter or book.

Job offered sacrifices directly to God as did the patriarchs who lived prior to the giving of the Old Covenant to Moses.

If Job had been under the Old Covenant, Job would have brought offerings to the priest, and the priest would have made offering on behalf of Job.

Job kept asking God to reveal to him any sin he had committed so he could repent. The Old Covenant makes provision for the offering for sins committed in ignorance (Lev 4). If this Covenant had been in place, Job would have followed accordingly.

In Job 42, God instructed Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar to bring sacrifices to Job ... not to a priest under Old Covenant ... and Job would pray for them (which is another function of a priest under Old Covenant).

Are you making the assumption that these men are Jewish? If so, were do you find that in the book?

What evidence do you have that Job lived during the time the Old Covenant was in place?.

A number of years ago I did a word search of a good portion of Job. The Hebrew found here is late. Post Moses and post David. It aligned more with Ezekiel.

Elihu's father was a buzite, who could be related with Ezekiel's father. (Eze 1:3 The word of the LORD came expressly unto Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, in the land of the Chaldeans by the river Chebar; and the hand of the LORD was there upon him.) Also he was of the kindred of Ram, which is Hebrew.

The cup of woe that was poured out against Israel was almost identical to Job's woe. Lam 4:21 "Rejoice and be glad, O daughter of Edom, that dwellest in the land of Uz; the cup also shall pass through unto thee: thou shalt be drunken, and shalt make thyself naked. The punishment of thine iniquity is accomplished, O daughter of Zion; he will no more carry thee away into captivity: he will visit thine iniquity, O daughter of Edom; he will discover thy sins."

The cup that Israel received was around 600 BC, and that cup was then passed to Edom.

I do not believe so. The scourge that falls on the land affects all who live in the land and the scourge does not consider whether one is deserving of whatever injury the scrouge brings.

If and when calamity strikes ... a natural phenomenon (tornado, hurricane, tsunami, eartquake, etc., etc.) ... believers and nonbelievers alike are "destroyed" ... some lose their lives, some lose their homes and/or businesses, some lose their possessions. Job pointed out that God does not always intervene. God does not come to the rescue of either the innocent or the wicked. That is God's prerogative and some may conclude that God laughs in those circumstances. I do not believe God laughs in those times. I believe God helps those who trust in Him and while we may suffer for a season, when the affliction is removed, hopefully the believer has grown stronger in faith during that trying time.

The reason Job was discussing this line of reasoning was because Elphaz claimed in Job 4 and Bildad claimed in Job 8 that God would not bring calamity to the innocent. Therefore, according to both of them, Job had sinned and was reaping the consequence. But that is not what occurred ... satan afflicted Job in his foolish attempt to prove God wrong in His claim that Job was a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil.

.

If God would laugh at the trial of the innocent then God is not just. There is no man innocent save Christ. Besides, Job failed the second test.

 

[Lovette]

Have you compared the two tests of Job that show Job failed the second test?

Do you know that Eliphaz is the only one quoted in the New Testament?

Everything the three stooges said was true. Their problem was that they, like Job, did not know how to be right with God.

Did you know that God sent them to be witnesses against Job?

I don't know any of these, because they're all made up by you who blasphemed against God's annointed. Job's godly character is laid out in the first line of the book.

There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was blameless and upright, and one who feared God and shunned evil.

 

[tttallison]

I don't know any of these, because they're all made up by you who blasphemed against God's annointed. Job's godly character is laid out in the first line of the book.

There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was blameless and upright, and one who feared God and shunned evil.

I didn't make any of it up. It is all in the book of Job. Read the two tests for yourself. Satan had said Job would not bless God. The Hebrew says "bless not" "barak lo" but it was translated in the English to read "curse", and this makes a misunderstanding for many. You will see in the first test that Job blessed God, but Job did not bless God after the second test. God did not say Job was blameless and upright, and one who feared God and shunned evil after the second test.

Job was not called anointed, but Cyrus was.

 

[christophernyc]

The cup of woe that was poured out against Israel was almost identical to Job's woe. Lam 4:21 "Rejoice and be glad, O daughter of Edom, that dwellest in the land of Uz; the cup also shall pass through unto thee: thou shalt be drunken, and shalt make thyself naked. The punishment of thine iniquity is accomplished, O daughter of Zion; he will no more carry thee away into captivity: he will visit thine iniquity, O daughter of Edom; he will discover thy sins.".

Oh I see the parallel you are making with the woes poured out on Israel and the woes poured out on Job. However, did you notice why the woe was poured out on Israel? It was for their **iniquity**. Do you see that?

Yes, the punishment is similar but the **context** is completely different. Job was declared innocent and blameless **by God** and was not suffering because of some sin he had committed. Again, in Job 2:3 God says his suffering is "without cause". Just because you *can* draw a parallel to other places in Scripture does not mean that you *should* draw those parallels. The comparison you've made here is as far as the east is from the west.

Anyone could apply that same dangerous logic to Jesus. When He was suffering His trial and being crucified someone might say He was being punished for wrongdoing. However, we know that was not the case at all.

 

[tttallison]

Oh I see the parallel you are making with the woes poured out on Israel and the woes poured out on Job. However, did you notice why the woe was poured out on Israel? It was for their **iniquity**. Do you see that?

Yes, the punishment is similar but the **context** is completely different. Job was declared innocent and blameless **by God** and was not suffering because of some sin he had committed. Again, in Job 2:3 God says his suffering is "without cause". Just because you *can* draw a parallel to other places in Scripture does not mean that you *should* draw those parallels. The comparison you've made here is as far as the east is from the west.

Anyone could apply that same dangerous logic to Jesus. When He was suffering His trial and being crucified someone might say He was being punished for wrongdoing. However, we know that was not the case at all.

Psa 38:2 For thine arrows stick fast in me, and thy hand presseth me sore.
Job 6:4 For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Psa 38:3 There is no soundness in my flesh because of thine anger; neither is there any rest in my bones because of my sin. For mine iniquities are gone over mine head: as an heavy burden they are too heavy for me. My wounds stink and are corrupt because of my foolishness.
Job 30:30 My skin is black upon me and my bones are burned with heat.
Job 7:5 My flesh is clothed with worms and clods of dust; my skin is broken, and become loathsome.
Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Psa 38:6 I am troubled; I am bowed down greatly; I go mourning all the day long.
Job 30:28 I went mourning without the sun: I stood up, and I cried in the congregation.
Job 30:31 My harp also is turned to mourning, and my organ into the voice of them that weep.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Psa 38:11 My lovers and my friends stand aloof from my sore; and my kinsmen stand afar off.
Job 19:14 My kinsfolk have failed, and my familiar friends have forgotten me.
Job 19:15 They that dwell in mine house, and my maids, count me for a stranger: I am an alien in their sight.
Job 19:17 My breath is strange to my wife, though I intreated for the children's sake of mine own body.

David suffered because of sin-----------Psa 38:3 There is no soundness in my flesh because of thine anger; neither is there any rest in my bones because of my sin. For mine iniquities are gone over mine head: as an heavy burden they are too heavy for me. My wounds stink and are corrupt because of my foolishness.

Israel suffered because of sin.-----------Lam 1:8 Jerusalem hath grievously sinned; therefore she is removed: all that honoured her despise her, because they have seen her nakedness: yea, she sigheth, and turneth backward.

Job said he was innocent.-----------Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.

When you study the second test you know that Job wasn't innocent either.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Nebuchadnezzar would not have been able to partake of the priest's portion spoken of in Leviticus 20.

You may have been referring to a different chapter or book.

yes ... Leviticus 22.

Are you making the assumption that these men are Jewish?

no.

If so, were do you find that in the book?

you asked ... What evidence do you have that Job lived long before Moses? The language is late and not early.

and I answered:

Job offered sacrifices directly to God as did the patriarchs who lived prior to the giving of the Old Covenant to Moses.​

​

If Job had been under the Old Covenant, Job would have brought offerings to the priest, and the priest would have made offering on behalf of Job.​

​

Job kept asking God to reveal to him any sin he had committed so he could repent. The Old Covenant makes provision for the offering for sins committed in ignorance (Lev 4). If this Covenant had been in place, Job would have followed accordingly.​

​

In Job 42, God instructed Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar to bring sacrifices to Job ... not to a priest under Old Covenant ... and Job would pray for them (which is another function of a priest under Old Covenant).​

sacrifices and offerings to God were made from the earliest chapters of Genesis ... well before the establishment of the Old Covenant.

Under the Old Covenant given by God to Moses, God established the priesthood. I believe Job lived prior to the giving of the Covenant to Moses.

A number of years ago I did a word search of a good portion of Job. The Hebrew found here is late. Post Moses and post David. It aligned more with Ezekiel.

there is no mention of temple worship or a priesthood in Job which is why I believe Job lived in an earlier time period.

Ezekiel holds Job in high esteem:

Ezekiel 14:13-14 Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it: Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 14:19-20 Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast: Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

Elihu's father was a buzite, who could be related with Ezekiel's father. (Eze 1:3 The word of the LORD came expressly unto Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, in the land of the Chaldeans by the river Chebar; and the hand of the LORD was there upon him. ) Also he was of the kindred of Ram, which is Hebrew.

Ezekiel 1:3 states that Ezekiel's father was Buzi ... the verse does not state that he was a Buzite.

Ezekiel was a priest, so the father of Ezekiel was a priest ... which means both Ezekiel and his father were descended from the tribe of Levi ... the priestly line descended from Jacob.

The cup of woe that was poured out against Israel was almost identical to Job's woe. Lam 4:21 "Rejoice and be glad, O daughter of Edom, that dwellest in the land of Uz; the cup also shall pass through unto thee: thou shalt be drunken, and shalt make thyself naked. The punishment of thine iniquity is accomplished, O daughter of Zion; he will no more carry thee away into captivity: he will visit thine iniquity, O daughter of Edom; he will discover thy sins".

The cup that Israel received was around 600 BC, and that cup was then passed to Edom.

I do not believe the record in Lamentations 4:21 is the same as the record in Job.

In Lamentations 4, Jeremiah prophesied of the coming judgment upon Edom. Obadiah 1:1-14 describes the activities of the Edomites for which they would be judged by God.

Job was under attack by satan, not for any sin Job had committed (as was the case with the captivity of Israel as well as God's judgment upon Edom), but because satan's whole ministry is to steal, kill, and destroy. God stayed satan's hand from killing Job and God more than fully restored Job at the end of Job's trial.

If God would laugh at the trial of the innocent then God is not just.

I do not believe we fully understand exactly what Job was getting at here. We know that Job was in despair and Job spoke rashly during his discussions with his friends. Perhaps Job felt as if he was being laughed at. Job begged God for an answer and God remained distant from Job until chapter 38, at which point Job told God he (Job) was vile and questioned what answer could he give God and Job told God he would speak no further.

There is no man innocent save Christ.

there is no dispute about this.

Besides, Job failed the second test.

I do not agree with you on this point.

.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Job said he was innocent.-----------Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.

In what Job was going through at the moment, yes, Job had not sinned. Job and his friends did not understand that Job was being attacked by satan. The only "cause" for Job's dilemma was the desire of satan to destroy Job and satan would have utterly destroyed Job if God had not restrained him from doing so.

.

 

[tttallison]

yes ... Leviticus 22.





no.





you asked ... What evidence do you have that Job lived long before Moses? The language is late and not early.

and I answered:

Job offered sacrifices directly to God as did the patriarchs who lived prior to the giving of the Old Covenant to Moses.​

​

If Job had been under the Old Covenant, Job would have brought offerings to the priest, and the priest would have made offering on behalf of Job.​

​

Job kept asking God to reveal to him any sin he had committed so he could repent. The Old Covenant makes provision for the offering for sins committed in ignorance (Lev 4). If this Covenant had been in place, Job would have followed accordingly.​

​

In Job 42, God instructed Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar to bring sacrifices to Job ... not to a priest under Old Covenant ... and Job would pray for them (which is another function of a priest under Old Covenant).​

sacrifices and offerings to God were made from the earliest chapters of Genesis ... well before the establishment of the Old Covenant.

Under the Old Covenant given by God to Moses, God established the priesthood. I believe Job lived prior to the giving of the Covenant to Moses.




there is no mention of temple worship or a priesthood in Job which is why I believe Job lived in an earlier time period.

Ezekiel holds Job in high esteem:

Ezekiel 14:13-14 Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it: Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 14:19-20 Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast: Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.





Ezekiel 1:3 states that Ezekiel's father was Buzi ... the verse does not state that he was a Buzite.

Ezekiel was a priest, so the father of Ezekiel was a priest ... which means both Ezekiel and his father were descended from the tribe of Levi ... the priestly line descended from Jacob.





I do not believe the record in Lamentations 4:21 is the same as the record in Job.

In Lamentations 4, Jeremiah prophesied of the coming judgment upon Edom. Obadiah 1:1-14 describes the activities of the Edomites for which they would be judged by God.

Job was under attack by satan, not for any sin Job had committed (as was the case with the captivity of Israel as well as God's judgment upon Edom), but because satan's whole ministry is to steal, kill, and destroy. God stayed satan's hand from killing Job and God more than fully restored Job at the end of Job's trial.





I do not believe we fully understand exactly what Job was getting at here. We know that Job was in despair and Job spoke rashly during his discussions with his friends. Perhaps Job felt as if he was being laughed at. Job begged God for an answer and God remained distant from Job until chapter 38, at which point Job told God he (Job) was vile and questioned what answer could he give God and Job told God he would speak no further.





there is no dispute about this.





I do not agree with you on this point.

.

If Job was an Edomite his sacrifice to God would not be dictated by the Law.

When Ezekiel uttered his comment on Noah Daniel, Job it would have been around 595 BC. We know Daniel was a young man at this point. Ezekiel was the writer, but not the author. I feel sure there were many visions of Ezekiel's that Ezekiel did not understand.

I believe Obadiah 1:1-14 fits Job. Pride was Job's problem. Job 33:17 That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man. Job 35:12 There they cry, but none giveth answer, because of the pride of evil men. Job 41:15 His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal. Job 41:34 He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.

I believe Elihu's father was a descendant of Hezron.

I cannot prove Job is a late book, I just believe it.

Since you don't believe Job failed the second test would you care to discuss it?

 

[christophernyc]

Psa 38:2 For thine arrows stick fast in me, and thy hand presseth me sore.
Job 6:4 For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Psa 38:3 There is no soundness in my flesh because of thine anger; neither is there any rest in my bones because of my sin. For mine iniquities are gone over mine head: as an heavy burden they are too heavy for me. My wounds stink and are corrupt because of my foolishness.
Job 30:30 My skin is black upon me and my bones are burned with heat.
Job 7:5 My flesh is clothed with worms and clods of dust; my skin is broken, and become loathsome.
Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Psa 38:6 I am troubled; I am bowed down greatly; I go mourning all the day long.
Job 30:28 I went mourning without the sun: I stood up, and I cried in the congregation.
Job 30:31 My harp also is turned to mourning, and my organ into the voice of them that weep.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Psa 38:11 My lovers and my friends stand aloof from my sore; and my kinsmen stand afar off.
Job 19:14 My kinsfolk have failed, and my familiar friends have forgotten me.
Job 19:15 They that dwell in mine house, and my maids, count me for a stranger: I am an alien in their sight.
Job 19:17 My breath is strange to my wife, though I intreated for the children's sake of mine own body.

David suffered because of sin-----------Psa 38:3 There is no soundness in my flesh because of thine anger; neither is there any rest in my bones because of my sin. For mine iniquities are gone over mine head: as an heavy burden they are too heavy for me. My wounds stink and are corrupt because of my foolishness.

Israel suffered because of sin.-----------Lam 1:8 Jerusalem hath grievously sinned; therefore she is removed: all that honoured her despise her, because they have seen her nakedness: yea, she sigheth, and turneth backward.

Job said he was innocent.-----------Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.

When you study the second test you know that Job wasn't innocent either.

The comparison with the Psalms is unmistakable. Clearly it is the same thing and you did a very good job at setting these verses next to each other. I have noticed these similarities before, too, but have not written them out like you have so aptly done. Nice work!

The punishments and sufferings are obviously similar between what Job suffered and what David or Israel suffered. However -- again -- the **contexts** are undeniably different. This is a part of what makes the story of Job so dramatic and compelling. The whole basis for the story is that Job is suffering **as if** he had sinned but he had not sinned to incur this judgment. He is enduring the *effect* of having sinned and suffering those consequences --- but there was no *cause* on his end. As both Job says (as you quoted in Job 9:17) and as **God Himself** said, Job's suffering came about "without cause". Job statement is in perfect agreement with God's statement in Job 2:3.

By the way, in all of the things I have seen you write, I cannot recall any moment where you have been able to acknowledge that God has said Job's suffering came about without cause. Did I miss it perhaps? Or have you missed this fact of the story somehow? Seriously asking. You marked that Job has said it was without cause, but have you ever acknowledged that God said it first?

Nobody should base any interpretation of this book on a faulty foundation. Nobody should ignore what is clearly written in the text while simultaneously inserting other ideas that are either not in the text or supported by the text.

 

[tttallison]

The comparison with the Psalms is unmistakable. Clearly it is the same thing and you did a very good job at setting these verses next to each other. I have noticed these similarities before, too, but have not written them out like you have so aptly done. Nice work!

The punishments and sufferings are obviously similar between what Job suffered and what David or Israel suffered. However -- again -- the **contexts** are undeniably different. This is a part of what makes the story of Job so dramatic and compelling. The whole basis for the story is that Job is suffering **as if** he had sinned but he had not sinned to incur this judgment. He is enduring the *effect* of having sinned and suffering those consequences --- but there was no *cause* on his end. As both Job says (as you quoted in Job 9:17) and as **God Himself** said, Job's suffering came about "without cause". Job statement is in perfect agreement with God's statement in Job 2:3.

By the way, in all of the things I have seen you write, I cannot recall any moment where you have been able to acknowledge that God has said Job's suffering came about without cause. Did I miss it perhaps? Or have you missed this fact of the story somehow? Seriously asking. You marked that Job has said it was without cause, but have you ever acknowledged that God said it first?

Nobody should base any interpretation of this book on a faulty foundation. Nobody should ignore what is clearly written in the text while simultaneously inserting other ideas that are either not in the text or supported by the text.

I believe it was for cause that Job suffered. Job's pride was in his own righteousness, and you only have to read the 29th chapter to see it. Job's righteousness far exceeded anyone else's. We see that in the fact that he lost everything including his children and passed the first test. It took a second test to show the flaw. In the first test Satan said Job would not bless God, but Job did bless God, and Satan's cause for that test was unfounded. For the second test Satan, again, said Job would not bless God, and Satan was right, Job did not bless God. After the second test God does not appear again to praise Job. Job failed, for his heart had failed him. There is none righteous, no not one. In the forty first chapter God introduces Job to Satan, and asks Job if he is going to take him for a servant forever.

 

[christophernyc]

I believe it was for cause that Job suffered. Job's pride was in his own righteousness, and you only have to read the 29th chapter to see it. Job's righteousness far exceeded anyone else's. We see that in the fact that he lost everything including his children and passed the first test. It took a second test to show the flaw. In the first test Satan said Job would not bless God, but Job did bless God, and Satan's cause for that test was unfounded. For the second test Satan, again, said Job would not bless God, and Satan was right, Job did not bless God. After the second test God does not appear again to praise Job. Job failed, for his heart had failed him. There is none righteous, no not one. In the forty first chapter God introduces Job to Satan, and asks Job if he is going to take him for a servant forever.

Thank you for clarifying. So, as you have stated, you believe there was cause for Job to suffer. This blatantly opposes what the Scripture says. Again, have you read Job 2:3 where God plainly says Job's suffering is "without cause"? Are we reading different bibles?

To clarify, this does not mean Job's suffering was without *purpose* as we read how suffering matures the believer and makes them perfect and complete, as James states in his epistle.

The basis for your interpretation clearly contradicts what God has said. That is not good. Nobody should be so committed to their opinion and interpretation that it requires them to annul God's word in any way.

It's unclear how any sensible discussion can be had about this book if the fundamental facts of the story cannot be agreed upon. It simply won't work.

 

[tttallison]

Thank you for clarifying. So, as you have stated, you believe there was cause for Job to suffer. This blatantly opposes what the Scripture says. Again, have you read Job 2:3 where God plainly says Job's suffering is "without cause"? Are we reading different bibles?

To clarify, this does not mean Job's suffering was without *purpose* as we read how suffering matures the believer and makes them perfect and complete, as James states in his epistle.

The basis for your interpretation clearly contradicts what God has said. That is not good. Nobody should be so committed to their opinion and interpretation that it requires them to annul God's word in any way.

It's unclear how any sensible discussion can be had about this book if the fundamental facts of the story cannot be agreed upon. It simply won't work.

You are not considering the two tests. The tests were different and the results were different.

The suffering in the first test was without cause. Satan said Job would not bless God, but Job did bless God after the first test. In the second test Satan again said Job would not bless God, but this time Job did not bless God. One time was without cause, and one time was with cause. Satan was right only half the time.

God asked Job if he was going to take Satan for a servant forever. God asked Job if he was going to make a covenant with Satan.

Job 41:4 Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

If Job was an Edomite his sacrifice to God would not be dictated by the Law.

I believe Job lived prior to the giving of the law to Moses ... during a time some refer to as "patriarchal".

When Ezekiel uttered his comment on Noah Daniel, Job it would have been around 595 BC. We know Daniel was a young man at this point. Ezekiel was the writer, but not the author. I feel sure there were many visions of Ezekiel's that Ezekiel did not understand.

The Author of Scripture is God. God determined that Job was worthy of high praise. God determined Job was righteous as shown in Ezekiel 4:14; 20. Job is also held out to believers as an example of one who persevered under trial (James 5:11).

I believe Obadiah 1:1-14 fits Job.

Esau is mentioned in the record ... Job is not mentioned.

Pride was Job's problem.

satan was Job's problem.

Job 33:17 That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man. Job 35:12 There they cry, but none giveth answer, because of the pride of evil men. Job 41:15 His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal. Job 41:34 He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.

I think Elihu believed that when Job declared he had not sinned, Job was claiming sinless perfection ... which was not what Job meant.

Job's claim was that in the circumstance of the attack of satan, he had not sinned. And Job was correct ... he had not sinned and that was what Job told his friends the whole time.

I believe Elihu's father was a descendant of Hezron.

I cannot prove Job is a late book, I just believe it.

ok

Since you don't believe Job failed the second test would you care to discuss it?

I have been discussing it ... you and I are not in agreement on this point.

.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

God asked Job if he was going to take Satan for a servant forever. God asked Job if he was going to make a covenant with Satan.

Job 41:4 Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?

God spoke of leviathan (Job 41:1) ... leviathan is also mentioned in Psalm 74:14, Psalm 104:26, and Isaiah 27:1. these verses indicate leviathan is a creature in the sea.

.

 

[tttallison]

I believe Job lived prior to the giving of the law to Moses ... during a time some refer to as "patriarchal".





The Author of Scripture is God. God determined that Job was worthy of high praise. God determined Job was righteous as shown in Ezekiel 4:14; 20. Job is also held out to believers as an example of one who persevered under trial (James 5:11).





Esau is mentioned in the record ... Job is not mentioned.





satan was Job's problem.





I think Elihu believed that when Job declared he had not sinned, Job was claiming sinless perfection ... which was not what Job meant.

Job's claim was that in the circumstance of the attack of satan, he had not sinned. And Job was correct ... he had not sinned and that was what Job told his friends the whole time.





ok





I have been discussing it ... you and I are not in agreement on this point.

.

I don't believe you have been discussing the second test. I haven't heard whether you agreed that there were two tests, or whether there were not two tests.

 

[tttallison]

God spoke of leviathan (Job 41:1) ... leviathan is also mentioned in Psalm 74:14, Psalm 104:26, and Isaiah 27:1. these verses indicate leviathan is a creature in the sea.

.

Is Satan just a snake? Genesis 3. How does a fish behold all high things. If you accept that the serpent in the garden was Satan then how do you deny Leviathan the crooked serpent. Are these not metaphors? Satan was beholding all high things in the beginning of the book of Job.

Job 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

Isa 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. (Is Israel a bird?)

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Job 41:8-9 Lay thine hand upon him, remember the battle, do no more. Behold, the hope of him is in vain: shall not one be cast down even at the sight of him?

Job 41:3 Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee? Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?

Job 41:8 Lay thine hand upon him, remember the battle, do no more.

Job 41:33 Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear.

Job 41:34 He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.

 

[christophernyc]

You are not considering the two tests. The tests were different and the results were different.

The suffering in the first test was without cause. Satan said Job would not bless God, but Job did bless God after the first test. In the second test Satan again said Job would not bless God, but this time Job did not bless God. One time was without cause, and one time was with cause. Satan was right only half the time.

God asked Job if he was going to take Satan for a servant forever. God asked Job if he was going to make a covenant with Satan.

Job 41:4 Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?

Do you understand the concept of cause and effect? In the context of Job, the *cause* would be if Job had sinned -- and the *effect* would be that he is punished. God says Job suffered "without cause" -- and yet he was being punished anyway *as if* he had sinned. That is the fundamental crux of this story.

So if Job suffered the first test "without cause" --- and he passed it with flying colors --- then there is even LESS cause for him to suffer a second test, regardless of whether or not you think he passed it.

According to your interpretation then (with which I disagree) you are putting the effect before the cause. That's not how cause and effect works. Do you understand that? You are taking this story and rearranging the order of events to suit your interpretation. It doesn't work.