Works of the Law
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Now you’re attempting to flip the script. Shame on you for your hypocrisy.
What you exactly mean? is someone saved through his works? Or is he saved because of Gods grace? Is someone turning to God. Is he able to live sinless?
Even the OT people were not able to hold the law. They needed the priest and the sacrifice God comandet to forgive their sins.
You believe realy we have to follow the covenant God gave the nation of Israel?
What about Acts 15 and the meeting in Jerusalem? What was the conclusion?
wolfwint
So I believe what you are saying took place as recorded in acts 15: 20 & 29 , is that John, Peter and others exempted Gentiles from obeying 9 of the Commandments and a few other unrelated things like "blood", which means what? exactly?
the one of the ten, they supposedly said they must keep, is the one concerning fornication.
I find that very very strange? Does that mean gentiles can continue to lie, to murder, and steal?? Is that what was taught by Jesus Christ?
I fully realize most of christianity wants no part with anything Jewish, but the Torah and the Commandments predate the Jews.
According to Genesis 26, Abraham, who is not a Jew, he is a Hebrew, kept all of GOD's commandments, statutes and the Torah. The word "law" is Torah.
I completed a study of Acts 15: 20 & 29-- Gentiles are still subject to the Law/Torah, there is not one way for Jews and a different way for gentiles.
GOD is ONE, one path, one door, one way.
J
James456
Guest
They were discussing the law of Moses, not the moral law. The meeting went on for a long time, there was much debate, there wouldn't have been any debate as to whether gentiles could, steal, murder commit adultery etc
no one is saved through his works, once someone believes Jesus follows him and received the Holy spirit, the commandments become easy fo follow, everything becomes easy, yes temptations are still there but now we have the Holy spirit to help us. ad for the Covenant, God in the O.T. said clearly it is the ten Commandments. Jesus was teaching all ten Commandments so we have to follow them, the rest of the law of Moses for gentiles? no, the Jerusalem council just kept 4 commands from the laws of Moses, see Acts 15 that explains this. they council was not addressing the covenant ( ten commandments) but the law of Moses for gentiles.
J
James456
Guest
And yet, Paul told born again christians in the present tense the ten commandments were the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation. That doesn't sound like Paul believed they were easy to follow
some few on this site have said, gentiles are not subject to, not "under" the law/torah, only those 4 "things"
there is no difference between Jews and gentiles, all are to obey.
they were discussing things like "eating blood" which is prohibited by Torah and not strangling animals as that leave the blood in the animal.
Gentiles had no prohibition, eating blood was no problem.
Most animals offered as food by gentiles had been strangled so the blood was in the meat -- a problem for those that followed Jesus Christ.
Fact; the Torah remains the HOLY Just and Good Law of God and Jesus Christ.
J
James456
Guest
They were discussing which of the laws of Moses gentiles be asked to follow
Fact, if all of them should be followed, it is an indisputable fact the leaders of the first century church gave gentile converts a licence to sin as sin is the transgression of the aw
Why would God write laws in our hearts if it kills us to obey them? Therefore, the laws God has written on our hearts are not the letter that kills, but what Jesus still wants us uphold.
I'm not writing this to you so much, but rather to God’s people who will obey Him.
🕊
vassal
we disagree on a few points.
When Christ returns He will rule earth by the Torah, it will be the LAW for the entire earth.
The four "things" the apostles agreed upon were not commandments,
there were connected to eating meat offered to idols, not idol worship.
eating blood, which is Torah prohibited
and the Torah ways of slaughtering animals so as to not eat the blood or cause suffering
and temple prostitutes as a form of worship -- which was everywhere and normal worship for Gentiles
Europe didn't learn anything from WWII. The antichrist will come out the EU. You live there so you need to get closer to Jesus and learn to endure in Him. Don't worry about us across the pond.
🕊
I totally disagree! Gentiles, as all called by the Father must live orderly by the Torah including all 10 of the Commandments.
How can you believe a follower of Christ can lie, steal, murder and rape?
Are you not aware the NEW covenant is NOT with "Christians" ?
The NEW is between Christ and the House of Israel and the House of Judah,
Jeremiah 31 and the Book of Hebrews
7For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
and the only change was to the promises, not the law.
J
James456
Guest
They weren't discussing the ten commandments. If they were discussing the entire OT law that would have mentioned them, but they weren't, nice try
they were not addressing the entire OT Torah
The major Torah rules consist of the Commandments, the statutes and the judgements
the question was?
- """meats""" offered to idols -- can we ? should we eat meat that has been offered to idols?? No!
- and from blood, If the meat was not properly slathered, can we eat it -- NO! blood was not drained
- and from things strangled, No! the blood was not drained out
- and from fornication: Really? can we have sex with any women?? that was not the question
except for fornicating. a commandment, with pagan temple prostitutes, none of these are major torah issues
eating meats even offered to idols does not carry the penalty of death actually no penalty as it is nothing, just don't ask if it was. meat is meat.
eating blood does not carry the penalty of death
strangling animals does not carry the penalty of death
this is an issue today because human nature can never obey God and the 40,000 churches today do not want to obey any rules --- why do you suppose the mega churches have done so well --- no rules -- just pay money and you will be blessed.
We can't earn our salvation even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of Moses because it was never given as a way of doing that, but that doesn't mean that our salvation does not require us to choose to be a doer of it for the reasons for which it was given.
In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Law of Moses was how is audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20) so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message, which Peter argued in Acts 15:6-7 that Gentiles had heard and believed, so he was agreeing with the Pharisees from among the believers. In Ezekiel 36:26-27, God will take away our hearts of stone, give us hearts of flesh, and send His Spirit to lead us in obedience to the Mosaic Law, which is in accordance with Acts 15:8-9 where Peter argued that Gentiles had received the Spirit and had their hearts cleansed. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Law of Moses, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith, which is in accordance with Acts 15:10-11 where Peter argued that Gentiles are saved by grace just as we are, so again he was agreeing with the Pharisees from among the believers. Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example, so the topic that they were debating was not whether followers of Christ should follow what he taught, but where salvation is by circumcision that was proposed by the men from Judea in Acts 15:1 or by grace.
Either Acts 15:19-21 contains an exhaustive list for mature believers or it does not, so it would be contradictory to treat it as being an exhaustive list by trying to use it to limit which laws Gentiles should follow while also treating it as being a non-exhaustive list by taking the position that there are obviously other laws that Gentiles should follow.
We can't earn our righteousness even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of God because it was never given a a way of doing that (Romans 4:1-5), but Paul also affirmed in Romans 2:13 that only the doers of the Law of Moses will be declared righteous, so there is a reason why our righteousness requires us to choose to be a doer of it other than in oder to earn it as the result, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are declared righteous apart from works also upholds the Law of Moses (Romans 3:27-31).
There in your reply is the contradiction.
A contradiction that you have been taught to hold.
Here is what you stated.
"I completed a study of Acts 15: 20 & 29-- Gentiles are still subject to the Law/Torah, there is not one way for Jews and a different way for gentiles."
You know full well that you ignore more than 98% of the law in the Torah, it has been fulfilled.
Then you turn around and say that the law is still binding which is still binding.
How can the law stated in Exodus 20 still be binding when, at the same time, you state the law has been fulfilled.
Your answer is that a specific part of the law shown in Exodus 20 is eternal and moral, and is always binding.
You support this by saying that the ten commandments are quoted in the N.T.
Some how you missed, the fact, that the entire law has been fulfilled.
No one is under the letter of the law as stated in Exodus 20 anymore.
Gentiles were never in covenant to obey the law only Israel was given the letter of the law.
That is why Acts 15 tells us that Gentiles are not under the law, the Gentiles were only given four rules, not laws.
Gentiles are not under the law and were never under the law of Mt Sinai.
Jesus fulfilled the law and we are now under the law of Christ.
Does that mean it's ok to steal?
How can someone be stealing when they are giving their own lives for others?
You were told to love others as Christ loved us which means you could never steal from anyone.
You do not understand the Christian life in the Holy Spirit.
You are living in a contradiction and judging others.
That's contradictory. Christ can't make it happen without it happening. Moreover, Christ does not just lead us to follow ten of God's commandments, but rather he set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those whoo are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6).