Legalists typically subscribe to the gospel according to SELF:
SELF promotion
SELF righteousness
SELF preservation
Loss of salvation???
- Thread starter gratefuloneson
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SELF promotion
SELF righteousness
SELF preservation
As the whole story plays out in Acts10, it's interesting how God sent Peter to him and his household to evangelize and baptize him. Other Scripture would call him a "God fearer".
Arguments from silence only purport to tell us the whole story. We don't know all that Zacchaeus went through, but since John was baptizing as required from Heaven, and since Jesus was baptizing or having men baptized, there's just as much reason to think Zacchaeus probably was baptized as say he wasn't.
Agreed, and that that faith and change of heart included doing what was required by God, whether it be confessing the Lord Jesus, being baptized as God required and as Jesus later commanded, etc...
Actually, Peter was sent to evangelize and God intervened to make sure Peter realized that the Gentiles were to be baptized as the Jews were. Acts2:38 and Acts10 are not all that different in regard to all that likely took place in God's eyes including after Peter had these Gentiles baptized.
It's been awhile since I've seen "legalist" terminology thrown around like this. Part of the problem with it has always been that it means different things to different users.
J
James456
Guest
I would doubt Zaccheus had been baptised, the people grumbled Jesus was going to the house of a sinner. And Zaccheus, by his own admission had probably overcharged people their taxes.
And what about thereafter? That's what I mean about arguments from silence. All we can do is speculate and our "doubt" is not conclusive.
J
James456
Guest
Speculate according to what is actually written, and make an informed view concerning that. When Jesus told people there sins were given, there is no record of him first checking if they had been baptised in water
Speculation is not proof, which is the point. And you're skipping over what I asked about afterward.
Faith at the moment of salvation, no matter your faith beyond that point, is still salvation.
Now, allow me to qualify that statement:
There are different levels of faith. We have faith in our taste for a certain flavor of ice cream, faith in the love our wives have for us, faith in the IRS that it will come and take what they say you owe, faith that the neighbor's dog is going to to his business on your lawn once let out of the house unfettered, on and on the examples could go. We can place the greatest of faith in all manner of things and people, but is that faith always well placed? That's the question.
When we place our faith in the Lord for what He accomplished for us, that's a level of faith based upon a recognition of one's condition in relation to Christ. That's a faith placed in the One who is more faithful than anything else in this universe upon which one could place his faith.
So, your question implies that your faith in where you stand in the future is what determines your salvation at that time. The problem with your thinking is that you're making it about YOU and YOUR faithfulness rather than HIS faithfulness. Do you not see what Paul was saying about this? Read this more carefully:
2Timothy 2:13
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
Please read that over and over, letting it sink in. The faithfulness of Christ, coupled with His never being One who denies Himself through unfaithfulness, even at the level of our lacking belief at some future point, it's about HIM, not YOU. Do you get that?
[The CAPS are for emphasis, not yelling.]
All the arguments of the salvation loss gang always goes to the individual, never directing their attention to the One who is Himself the grounding of our salvation. Instead, they want to put themselves in the limelight, which is fleshly, human pride. If our salvation were based upon our performance through life, then why did He need to die if our performance can have such a profound impact? How could anyone be saved if it were based upon our performance?
I've asked this many times and am still awaiting an answer: Can you define that line whereby stepping over it renders one who was saved as being unsaved? Where does scripture ever define such a line without one having to rip some obscure verse from its context and trashing its meaning through subjective double-talk?
Wrong. That's yet again placing the onus of our salvation upon self rather than the efficacy of His accomplished work on that cross. We ALL sin daily, and therefore "fall away" in one sense or another of that terminology. Again, our salvation is based upon HIS faithfulness. Look, our sin and unfaithfulness is not at all a surprise to Him. You can't do anything that He didn't already foresee.
Ok, now your intermixing different concepts into this mish-mash of bad theology. Let's decipher this tangled mess:
Perseverance is a requirement placed upon those who were under the Law and the Kingdom Gospel. In other words, never did Paul ever command perseverance upon the body of Christ under grace for salvation. When Jesus spoke of perseverance in places like Matthew 24, He was speaking of those who will go through the tribulation. Taking the mark of the beast is the sealing of one's eternal doom, and so those people will have to persevere against the temptations to take that mark in order to still buy sustenance such as food for survival.
You see, what so many miss routinely are the key terms that define where we are today. Grace is the one word that ends up so mangled and corrupted with works and self-effort, always with those works-based salvation people never giving credence to the definition of that term...UNMERITED FAVOR. Instead, they want to earn and retain that favor, never minding that it was UNMERITED and remains unmerited throughout.
Honestly, do you think your salvation is based upon your personal performance? Do you actually WANT your salvation to be based upon YOUR personal performance, or would you rather your salvation be based upon HIS performance and HIS faithfulness?
Additionally, the race Paul spoke of wasn't about retaining his salvation, but having run the race upon the track where the Lord placed him...the race of life and serving the Lord to his best ability in this race of life that is so fleeting. We all talk about how fast life is flying along, so seizing each moment and the opportunities within those moments, that is very much like a race to gain as many for Christ as we can. Paul ran that race even to the extent of protecting against the Judaizers what he worked so hard to build.
Hope that helps.
MM
J
James456
Guest
You say speculation I say discernment, we will have to agree to disagree. Yes, I skipped over the rest, a chance you always take when you post to someone
You have a choice.
Which are you?
Dumb? ...
Or, stupid?
Dumb?
Just can not comprehend.
Stupid, on the other hand?
WILL NOT comprehend. (Refusal)
Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge,
but whoever hates correction is stupid.
Proverbs 12:1
but whoever hates correction is stupid.
Proverbs 12:1
Look! I am like you!
I am just repeating what the Word says.
You have been shown too many times the clarifications to now be with excuse.
Every village has one...
On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command:
“Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have
heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be
baptized with the Holy Spirit.” Acts 1:4-5
“Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have
heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be
baptized with the Holy Spirit.” Acts 1:4-5
OK slow poke.... keep dragging behind.
But we are not going to slow up for you forever.
For you keep on seeking to drag us down.
But! You will find ways to appear justified...
And, the dragging down continues with Cameron's ankle weights.
Gadzooks.... Get a hobby.
Speculation is discernment and Argument from Silence is fact. I understand the method.
Right, baptized WITH the Holy Spirit; not placed into the body of Christ. Two separate operations of the Spirit by two different members of the Godhead. Acts 1 and 2, and subsequent times in the book of Acts is the baptism with the Spirit, performed by Jesus and is the promise of the Father promised in Joel 2. It is outward, experiential, and obvious to all present. It is the sealing spoken of in Ephesians 1:12-13.
All that is different from the Spirit placing an individual into the body of Christ, which is nonexperiential, is inward, and noticeable to no one.
I do appreciate the discussion.
Grace and peace.
You got all the technique, sir.
To stay in the game you play.
But you do not get what is needed, done.
I have not forgotten that you deny the Rapture and the Millennium.
Now? You can't get this.
You are an ankle weight.
But, some people need the exercise.
So God lets you keep on with what you do.
I understand your point, but it is a minority view. Even those who recognize that water baptism in no way impacts salvation still believe the baptism spoken of by Christ in the Great Commission is water baptism.
I haven't forgotten you either...the impugner.
You forgot to mentions the last part of my comments, there was a lot more.
So we have people who refuse to be baptized in JESUS name and have never been filled with the Holy Ghost saying none of it is true, which goes against HIS rule book.
Then we people who have obeyed GODS rules and have been baptized in JESUS name and GOD filled them with the spirit, which lines up with HIS rule book.
Who is wrong?
I don't think it's stupid trying to reach the lost.
I think I will keep going, even as it seams I'm wasting me time.
Storing my tresurees in Heaven.
Notice no insules comeing from me.
"But the legalistic view, I imagine, is, the man’s sins could not have been forgiven as he had not yet been baptised in water."
How else do we get rid of our sins?
"Jesus told Zaccheus salvation had come to his house, yet he had not been baptised, but he had, had a change of heart. Jesus forgave people their sins, without insisting they were firstly baptised in water. He told people their faith had saved them."
If you see JESUS like Zaccheus did, he can forgive your sins also.
I don't think you will so today we have trust HIS word.
"Acts 2:38 was NOT the experience of Cornelius and his household, the ‘’rulebook’’ of Acts2:38 had not been followed."
Acts 2:38 baptized in JESUS name and receive the Holy Ghost is the exact same thing that happened in Acts 10, just reversed.
Not leagalistm, HIS word.
You know a way to play the game that you play...
The Lord knows what you do.
For, he sees what is in your heart.
I can not judge.
But, I am allowed to discern.
They are not two separate operations. It is by means of the Spirit that we are placed into Christ. How else do you think we could be placed into such a position?
What scriptures do you even quote to come up with such a theory?
It's an operation of all three members of the Godhead. Promised by the Father, actioned by the Son by means of the Spirit.
The works-based salvationists out there will never accept what scripture says to us on the basis of rightly dividing the word of truth.
MM