No living faith without works

[Inquisitor]

Exactly. "What comes to mind". And that is the opposite of being led by the Spirit.

Oh no, don't tell me.

So much talk about works inspired me to go on a pilgrimage.

Pilgrimages originated in ancient times, with major religious traditions establishing sacred journeys
early in their history. While Jewish, Hindu, and other ancient traditions held pilgrimages earlier,
Christian pilgrimages to the Holy Land gained momentum in the 4th century AD, particularly after
Saint Helena's journey in 326 AD. (google)

We have been going on pilgrimages for 1700 years in Christianity.

Some pilgrimage sites can have more than 5 million pilgrims per year.

Protestants are boring.

 

[Inquisitor]

"No living faith without works" -- I agree with this.
"Our works do not save us nor participate in our salvation." -- Do you agree with this?

Me thinks they would struggle with that idea; saved by calling on the name of the Lord.

Nah, that's not going to happen.

 

[Dino246]

True but I guess it depends on how you define Christian. Since real faith produces works someone with zero works wouldn’t have faith. I guess that would be the Christian by name only category. He did say they will be known by their fruit. I guess they would more like a flowering plum tree. Pretty to look at but produce little to no fruit.

What gets overlooked is the reality that people who get truly saved don’t necessarily start producing good fruit immediately. Further, people aren’t constantly producing fruit. This has nothing to do with sin.

 

[studier]

None that I know. I’ve never met an actual Christian that believed they could live in sin and still be saved. I’m not talking about the ones that wear a cross around their necks for a fashion statement but have never read scripture in their lives. Those couldn’t tell you what Sola Fide translates to in English more less what was meant by it. I’m not talking about people who have heard about Jesus but the ones that know Jesus. The ones I know know that faith in Christ produces works. They also know that their works aren’t good enough to save them which is why they say they are saved by faith alone or only by faith that produces works so no one gets triggered.

Studier's question is fair.

Many Christians claim that they are "saved by faith alone" without works, which is biblically sound, but is not intended to be a complete theology of the Christian life.

True but I guess it depends on how you define Christian. Since real faith produces works someone with zero works wouldn’t have faith. I guess that would be the Christian by name only category. He did say they will be known by their fruit. I guess they would more like a flowering plum tree. Pretty to look at but produce little to no fruit.

A few comments:

• I haven't read @ATG posts intently yet, so I'm not addressing them.
• I have met "Christians" that believe they can live in sin and still be saved. This takes more discussion than I'm addressing at this point due to topics like infancy, the maturing process, perfection as is noted.
• What was originally meant by "faith-alone" ("f-a") is not in every case how people use it today and "works-salvation" is being alleged based in how f-a is understood. f-a has long been at the point where it needs to be defined or explained in discussion so we know what the parties think it is and are not talking past one-another,
• Phrases like 'the ones that know Jesus" also should be clarified because the Text uses it in a certain way and we tend to use such phrases more loosely.
• The phrase "f-a" tends to trigger me also because of my #3 point above and how loose we are with our language. f-a is a theological construct, like several others, and not a phrase from the Bible. It tends to mean what the user thinks it means. All of those phrases in the @Just_A__Follower last 2 sentences above should be explained because although they may sound simple based upon what we've been taught, they may not be the final thought on the matter. In my view those last 2 sentences can contain a break in textual logic that deserves discussion and I think "f-a" may be the cause of the need - it's an isolating phrase and it my well have developed to the point of isolating wrongly.
• This brings me to the @Dino246 statement - is ""saved by faith alone" without works" actually, always, and completely biblically sound or can it be not sound when we consider not only the "complete theology of the Christian life" but also the definition of genuine [biblical] faith and the definition of the full scope of biblical salvation?
• Defining a "Christian" is also good - words have intended meaning and, as I said, we - people in general - tend to use them not as they were originally intended and language constantly changes.
• Within this statement "real faith produces works someone with zero works wouldn’t have faith" as in the previous similar statements already mentioned, lies a question from logic which IMO can make the slogan "faith-alone" a myth as many have come to use it and the caution about this was evidence in the counter or follow-up slogan "faith is never alone".

A lot to discuss as evidenced through centuries now.

 

[studier]

It's not possible to have any living faith without works

There is no genuine faith apart from works per the underlying Greek of James2:17 at minimum.

 

[GWH]

There is no genuine faith apart from works per the underlying Greek of James2:17 at minimum.

The problem is no particular work is specified, which makes that statement problematically vague unless understood in light of love,
which indicates any and all fruit of the indwelling HS (Matt. 22:37-40), who was given at the moment of conversion to saving faith (Rom. 5:5 & 8:9, Gal. 5:6, Rev. 3:20).

 

[studier]

The problem is no particular work is specified, which makes that statement problematically vague unless understood in light of love,
which indicates any and all fruit of the indwelling HS (Matt. 22:37-40), who was given at the moment of conversion to saving faith (Rom. 5:5 & 8:9, Gal. 5:6, Rev. 3:20).

IMO, the only part of my statement that may need clarifying at this stage would be to clarify that works are "good works" but even this deserves discussion per John6:27-29 which opens more discussion for harmonizing Jesus and Paul re: "work".

 

[Suze]

On Tuesday I gave a homeless addict lady a hug and a few words of encouragement . She was being escorted into a facility for rehab by two big male ' community care ' men . She was tearful and embarrassed as those two carried all of her worldly belonging to a near by taxi . I couldn't help myself , she was breaking my heart . She seemed to appreciate the gesture , I wish they would send at least one lady ' community care ' person when they r dealing with a lady . The guys seemed nice enough but she really needed a bit more tlc .

 

[homwardbound]

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I see this without the

.But to understand the truth of the Scripture about faith, the spirit, and the body of man, we must have the mind of Christ, that the works of man, unlike the animals of the field, begin first with the inner man of the heart:

Agreed

Heb 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

That be for Father and Son to decide Who is sharper than any double edged sword. People use both sides of any sharp sword to convince others to follow them. God remains sharper, thank you Lord and you ATG

Mat 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

I have, I am guilty, I need God's lead, not mine ever anymore, Phil 3:1-3

Gal 5:19
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

I better not do those things. Yet I do them, have don e them and might do them again. Lord how can I stop those things and remain humble in them? You know, I trust you to teach me 1 John 2:27

1 Tim 6:3
He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

Yes Lord I know, yet see to not be proud, yet have and do not want to, how can I remain humble once know from you truth over error here in this world still
2 Cor 12:7-10 might be the answer, Thank you

Mat 15:19
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

So, lord I see I need a new Heart

Authorized (King James) Version

Ezekiel 36:26-27

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

I see to trust you now in risen Son, not the dead Son or just the walk alone of Son for us all first, that reconciled us all before new life given from you, for us to have. Now risen, we the people not alone anymore, thank you I do not have to work by myself anymore I now see to just trust you to do through me, what I have seen I can't do and yet want to, yet can't without you 1 Cor 13:1-3.

Which under Law got me to work, am glad for that now, even though I went through much stress first before rest could set in thank you.
I am done working out in my own salvation in the energy of my own dead flesh. I see I need your lead Father and Son, not mine or anyone elses' anymore thank you Phil 3, Phil 1:6

Now I see Gal 2:20 that you already did once for us all, to beleive and stand in it, with any and all worries that can and does beset first born flesh, not second born in your Spirit and truth. thank you again.

No more relying on self, even part time to see this is miraculous as you reveal this truth to all whenever the next child of yours needs to see it as we all grow up in different stages along the way in not giving up trusting you to get us each through it all. Thank you

Thank you ATG for the post, to stand in trust to God no matter what happens to us. Can we stand in adversities? I see that as best

Now to see new in int is doe b for you to do new. Tha tis in the risen son for us all,a t least me it is as I now thank God for, while in adversities still

 

[HigherGospel]

And Charity! You must have Charity! Faith with works, and Charity.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Charity is speaking on love,

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Yes, a person who claims to be godly but who is behaving in an ungodly (unloving, untruthful) manner may be in one of the following categories:

The only category they are in is the CORRUPT category.

They have sinned and have reaped corruption, God is not mocked we reap what we sow (see Gal 6:7,8)

If these people don't forsake and confess their sin they will not go to Heaven.

Romans 2:4
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

2 Corinthians 7:10
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Godly sorrow is the stronger of the 2 references since it leads to "repentance to salvation not to be repented of"

Proverbs 28:13
He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Hebrews 10:28-31
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

You sure about this?

He's not sure and is parroting man made carnal religious talking points rather than God's Word.

The problem is no particular work is specified

One must accept the whole counsel of God so the works are specified through out the New Testament and are known as the Law of Christ. Remember, only those led by the Holy Spirit are the true sons of God.

she was breaking my heart

Maybe you should let her move in with you then?

Since she was breaking your heart and all, maybe you could look after her.

 

[Suze]

Charity is speaking on love,

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.





The only category they are in is the CORRUPT category.

They have sinned and have reaped corruption, God is not mocked we reap what we sow (see Gal 6:7,8)

If these people don't forsake and confess their sin they will not go to Heaven.

Romans 2:4
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

2 Corinthians 7:10
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Godly sorrow is the stronger of the 2 references since it leads to "repentance to salvation not to be repented of"

Proverbs 28:13
He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Hebrews 10:28-31
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.





He's not sure and is parroting man made carnal religious talking points rather than God's Word.





One must accept the whole counsel of God so the works are specified through out the New Testament and are known as the Law of Christ. Remember, only those led by the Holy Spirit are the true sons of God.





Maybe you should let her move in with you then?

Since she was breaking your heart and all, maybe you could look after her.

If u read my post properly, u will c that she was being escorted into rehab .
I wouldn't know where to begin helping her as I'm not a trained therapist so would maybe even make things worse for her . I also live in a very small one bedroomed apartment .
Not sure why u seem to b giving me a sarcastic tone ? Maybe u doubt my sincerity ? That's your right I suppose , God knows my heart , just as well as He knows yours .

 

[Blade]

We all read Christ—the Word—telling us to be doers of the Word, not just hearers. “If you love me, keep my commands,” and so on. Now, when someone (myself included) steps forward to share what they truly believe, I always find myself wondering, “Who exactly is speaking to me?” Just because you’re (me again) on some “Christian” forum doesn’t automatically give your words more weight or authority.

It’s about faith—the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. When God gives a promise, you can’t see it or feel it, but you receive it, walk in it, and live it. Without works, what are those works really? You can’t separate one from the other. Some people bring “salvation” into this discussion, and while I understand that perspective, personally, I don’t fully agree.

If you ask me what we often call “works” (hmm wait... no one ask me lol) aren’t truly works at all. We get so fixated on the word “works” that we forget about faith. Where is your faith? They couldn’t heal the son because they had little faith. They were afraid the storm would kill them—where was their faith then? Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son—that was faith. It’s not just about healing. Peter and John had faith in that name. They didn’t just say “believe” or “have faith to be healed then walked away. ” They said, “Silver and gold I do not have, but what I do have, I give you in the name of Jesus.” Later, they emphasized faith in that name—the very name we claim to believe in for our salvation. Yet it seems we pick and choose what parts of that belief to accept. And still, we talk about works, huh?

So brothers and sisters can faith alone save them? The question presumes a negative answer yes? Yet none was given.. we give it. We add it. My self would assume no. Lol we read John 3:16-17 and add others verses to that so that you can't just believe you have to "obey...if you love me". So here I would add...what Christ started HE will finish. So it may seem like no works yet.. Hes not done. Some do lie some just mouth it and are not His. Its hard to look at one moment in time and judge. Just what I personally think....

 

[HigherGospel]

I wouldn't know where to begin helping her as I'm not a trained therapist

Don't worry the "trained therapist" can't help her either.

All they do is help people part with their money

The Lord can help, but sadly there so much false doctrine going around that most people give up on the Lord since most churches teach a different "jesus" and another "gospel" these days

Back in my younger days I was a homeless drug addict for several years and I can tell ya first hand that the "trained therapist" is a waste of time.

 

[markss]

We will see by Scriptural understanding of faith, spirit, and body of a man, that It's not possible to have any living faith without works, even as it's not possible to have a living body without breathing.

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

This truth of the spirit and faith of a man cannot be understood by the natural man, because he rejects the things of the Spirit, and only acknowledges the things of the flesh. However, it's also true of a natural theology of man, that does confess both spirit and faith, and yet even as the carnal mind of the natural man, they also only acknowledge works as being of the body alone.

.But to understand the truth of the Scripture about faith, the spirit, and the body of man, we must have the mind of Christ, that the works of man, unlike the animals of the field, begin first with the inner man of the heart:

Heb 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Mat 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Gal 5:19
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Tim 6:3
He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

Mat 15:19
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

We see that Jesus reveals to all men, that our works are not with the body alone. But rather the works of man created in the image of God, begin first with the inner spirit and heart of man: While all the works of animals of the field are only physical, the works of all men begin with the spirit, whether for the good or evil.

Even as lusting for evil from the heart is committing the act in sight of God, so also evil thoughts and intents of the heart are works of the flesh: Idolatry, hatred, envyings, evil surmisings...

Therefore, it is impossible to have spiritual faith in the heart, without having any works at all, since the thoughts and intents of the heart are works of man, as seen and judged by God.

Conclusion: Even as it's impossible for any person to have no thoughts and intents of the heart, so also it's impossible for any person to have no works at all. Therefore, it's impossible for man to have any faith without any works, even as a body with any spirit, except it is dead.

Even as breathing the air is the work of the natural body, so also thoughts and intents of the heart is the breathing of the spirit, which is the work of the inner man. There can be no living faith without works of the spirit, even as no living body without breathing the air.

Amen!!

Simply stated, how can you say you are born again if you are not different? The one who has no change in their heart or mind or actions, where is their regeneration?

Much love!

 

[markss]

In other words, right faith in God/Christ is the horse that pulls a cartload of good works. Good or loving works are significant as the sign of saving faith, but we should never put the cart before the horse. A person who claims to be a Christian, but who seems selfish and unloving, may be making a false profession; but no particular work—even including outward confession and water baptism—is necessary in order to be saved and to become a Christian. Saving faith motivates good works.
Law > Faith > Works/Love (Gal. 3:24-25, Eph. 2:8-10, Rom. 5:5)

Yes.

We are not saved by faith that is alone, but we are saved by faith alone.

Much love!

 

[markss]

If there is no works there to help people with their needs, food and clothing, or wherever they have a need then faith is dead and is not operating.

Because faith works by love.

If a person does not show love then faith does not work.

True faith has the right perspective of God's kingdom that it is love and act accordingly.

Amen!! Let us love one another first and foremost, and from that love, do what is needed.

Much love!

 

[markss]

None that I know. I’ve never met an actual Christian that believed they could live in sin and still be saved. I’m not talking about the ones that wear a cross around their necks for a fashion statement but have never read scripture in their lives. Those couldn’t tell you what Sola Fide translates to in English more less what was meant by it. I’m not talking about people who have heard about Jesus but the ones that know Jesus. The ones I know know that faith in Christ produces works. They also know that their works aren’t good enough to save them which is why they say they are saved by faith alone or only by faith that produces works so no one gets triggered.

@ATG unfortunately doesn’t understand that and continues to claim that when someone uses the phrase they mean they only have faith that doesn’t produce works. Apparently it’s very common for those that follow radical holiness and perfectionist theology to be triggered by this phrase. Their minds go directly to James 2:17. It’s possibly because they spend entirely too much time in James or the fact that they just misinterpret the word perfect and redefine sin. He will most likely reply to this post saying that I’m just a sinner not saved by my faith alone.

There is also the issue of cognitive dissonance, when someone reads the Bible and concludes real Christians never sin, but they see their own sins, though they believe they've trusted in Christ. Their options are limited. Bluster, denial, these are the primary tools I've seen used.

Those who are mature demostrate that in their words, just as all reveal them selves by their words. Those who are immature or false do so also.

Much love!

 

[HigherGospel]

There is also the issue of cognitive dissonance, when someone reads the Bible and concludes real Christians never sin, but they see their own sins, though they believe they've trusted in Christ. Their options are limited. Bluster, denial, these are the primary tools I've seen used.

Those who are mature demostrate that in their words, just as all reveal them selves by their words. Those who are immature or false do so also.

Reckon the devil snuck these scriptures in when Jesus wasn't lookin???

1 John 3:6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil

 

[NightTwister]

Fine. Anyone confessing faith in Christ ought always agree with His words of faith and the spirit: Faith alone without works is a dead faith, the same as a body is dead without the work of breathing.



Like with faith alone, so also with works alone. No one can acknowledge there is no living faith without works, without also acknowledging there are no living works without faith.

Heb 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Even as faith alone without works is dead, and cannot save any man nor participate in salvation, neither can works without faith, which are equally dead works alone.

Heb 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Both faith and works alone are two sides of the same dead coin: On the one hand, Paul rebukes dead works without faith, that do not justify the man, while on the other James rebukes dead faith without works, that do not save the man.

Most all Christians understand works without faith are dead to God, but some Christians refuse to understand that faith without works is equally dead not only to God, but also to man.

God gives us good gifts. Matt 7;11. The faith He gifts is a living faith. The kind that produces works. He wouldn't gift us a dead faith.

 

[markss]

Reckon the devil snuck these scriptures in when Jesus wasn't lookin???

1 John 3:6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil

You've already demonstrated yourself to me in your misrepresention of my statements, and your unfounded accusations, all the while proclaiming your own righteousness (by innuendo, of course).

So you are revealed.

To continue in this tone is pure hypocrisy. I'm not interested. I hope you get it all worked out.

Much love!