No living faith without works

[ATG]

We will see by Scriptural understanding of faith, spirit, and body of a man, that It's not possible to have any living faith without works, even as it's not possible to have a living body without breathing.

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

This truth of the spirit and faith of a man cannot be understood by the natural man, because he rejects the things of the Spirit, and only acknowledges the things of the flesh. However, it's also true of a natural theology of man, that does confess both spirit and faith, and yet even as the carnal mind of the natural man, they also only acknowledge works as being of the body alone.

.But to understand the truth of the Scripture about faith, the spirit, and the body of man, we must have the mind of Christ, that the works of man, unlike the animals of the field, begin first with the inner man of the heart:

Heb 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Mat 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Gal 5:19
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Tim 6:3
He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

Mat 15:19
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

We see that Jesus reveals to all men, that our works are not with the body alone. But rather the works of man created in the image of God, begin first with the inner spirit and heart of man: While all the works of animals of the field are only physical, the works of all men begin with the spirit, whether for the good or evil.

Even as lusting for evil from the heart is committing the act in sight of God, so also evil thoughts and intents of the heart are works of the flesh: Idolatry, hatred, envyings, evil surmisings...

Therefore, it is impossible to have spiritual faith in the heart, without having any works at all, since the thoughts and intents of the heart are works of man, as seen and judged by God.

Conclusion: Even as it's impossible for any person to have no thoughts and intents of the heart, so also it's impossible for any person to have no works at all. Therefore, it's impossible for man to have any faith without any works, even as a body with any spirit, except it is dead.

Even as breathing the air is the work of the natural body, so also thoughts and intents of the heart is the breathing of the spirit, which is the work of the inner man. There can be no living faith without works of the spirit, even as no living body without breathing the air.

 

[NightTwister]

"No living faith without works" -- I agree with this.
"Our works do not save us nor participate in our salvation." -- Do you agree with this?

 

[ATG]

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The spiritual man with the mind of Christ understands by faith in Scripture, that the body without the spirit is dead, even as faith without works is dead: Without the work of breathing the air, the outer body cannot live, so also without the work of the thoughts and intents of the heart, the faith of the inner man cannot live.

Even as there is no faith without thought and intent of the heart, there is no faith where their is no work,

Rev 2:4
Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

The first works of all men begin with the love of the heart, whether for good or evil, and it's these first works that God first sees in the hearts, that only the spiritual mind of Christ acknowledges.

The spiritual man understands that the first works of men and women, are within the heart by the spirit. But the natural man, and natural theologians, only acknowledge the works of the body, like that of natural beasts of the field, and reject the spiritual works of the inner man of the heart:

Heb 10:38
The just shall live by faith:

Faith justifies by living with works. Faith without works does not justify, because it is not alive without working, even as the body is not alive without the work of breathing:

James{2:14}
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone...

The breathing of the body is work of the natural body, the living of faith is work of the spirit of a man. Unlike animals without spiritual understanding, the works of man begin without the heart of the spiritual inner man:

Psa 7:9
Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.

Rev 2:23
And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Jesus Christ the righteous Lord and Judge searches the hearts and reins first for our spirit's works of the inner man, not by the deeds of the body alone.

 

[ATG]

"No living faith without works" -- I agree with this.

Fine. Anyone confessing faith in Christ ought always agree with His words of faith and the spirit: Faith alone without works is a dead faith, the same as a body is dead without the work of breathing.

"Our works do not save us nor participate in our salvation." -- Do you agree with this?

Like with faith alone, so also with works alone. No one can acknowledge there is no living faith without works, without also acknowledging there are no living works without faith.

Heb 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Even as faith alone without works is dead, and cannot save any man nor participate in salvation, neither can works without faith, which are equally dead works alone.

Heb 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Both faith and works alone are two sides of the same dead coin: On the one hand, Paul rebukes dead works without faith, that do not justify the man, while on the other James rebukes dead faith without works, that do not save the man.

Most all Christians understand works without faith are dead to God, but some Christians refuse to understand that faith without works is equally dead not only to God, but also to man.

 

[NightTwister]

Like with faith alone, so also with works alone. No one can acknowledge there is no living faith without works, without also acknowledging there are no living works without faith.

Faith is what saves us. Works prove that faith is real. They are proof of faith, not an addition to faith.

And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. Hey 11:6 ESV

There are actually works without faith

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ Matt 7:21-23 ESV

 

[GWH]

Fine. Anyone confessing faith in Christ ought always agree with His words of faith and the spirit: Faith alone without works is a dead faith, the same as a body is dead without the work of breathing.



Like with faith alone, so also with works alone. No one can acknowledge there is no living faith without works, without also acknowledging there are no living works without faith.

Heb 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Even as faith alone without works is dead, and cannot save any man nor participate in salvation, neither can works without faith, which are equally dead works alone.

Heb 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Both faith and works alone are two sides of the same dead coin: On the one hand, Paul rebukes dead works without faith, that do not justify the man, while on the other James rebukes dead faith without works, that do not save the man.

Most all Christians understand works without faith are dead to God, but some Christians refuse to understand that faith without works is equally dead not only to God, but also to man.

A key element is missing at the outset of this discussion. Accepting Jesus as Christ and Lord implies the reason that the kerygma is stated in terms of believing right and behaving right. We can harmonize these two categories of teachings by understanding that right or saving faith precedes and produces good/godly works or working faith that loves.

The priority of faith is indicated by James 2:17, which says that “faith by itself, if it is not accompanied [manifested] by action, is dead.” And Paul (in Gal. 5:6) states, “the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.” Ephesians 2:8-9, which emphasizes salvation by grace through faith, is followed in verse 10 by: “For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works.”

In other words, right faith in God/Christ is the horse that pulls a cartload of good works. Good or loving works are significant as the sign of saving faith, but we should never put the cart before the horse. A person who claims to be a Christian, but who seems selfish and unloving, may be making a false profession; but no particular work—even including outward confession and water baptism—is necessary in order to be saved and to become a Christian. Saving faith motivates good works.
Law > Faith > Works/Love (Gal. 3:24-25, Eph. 2:8-10, Rom. 5:5)

 

[HigherGospel]

"Our works do not save us nor participate in our salvation."

That's false because if one lives after the flesh (sin) they disqualify themselves from salvation because they have turned away from the Lord to walk after the flesh rather than after the Spirit.

2 Timothy 2:12
if we deny him, he also will deny us:

God has ORDAINED His people to walk in good works and those claiming good works don't matter are not only being disobedient to the Lord refusing to be led by the Holy Spirit based on God's Word, they are also calling God a liar having set themselves in agreement with the devil thru their opposition to the Lord.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

In all reality those claiming we are saved by faith alone are keeping the door open for others to believe they can live in sin and still be saved (OSAS heresy) which is one of satan's favorite deceptions.

This is some of the devil's best work as it deceives people in to believing they are Christians when in reality they are not where all they have is false man made carnal minded religion instead of actually having salvation causing them to walk in agreement with the Lord.

That's what being carnal minded versus being spiritually minded comes down to is being in agreement with the devil versus being in agreement with the Lord.

Faith is what saves us.

And of course faith itself is a good work.

There are actually works without faith

Yes those are works of the flesh and sometimes works of the flesh are religious works designed by the devil to make people think they are saved when in reality they are not where all they have is false man made carnal minded religion instead of actually having salvation causing them to walk in agreement with the Lord.

 

[HigherGospel]

A person who claims to be a Christian, but who seems selfish and unloving, may be making a false profession

And then the Word of God speaks of those who were actually born again who fell away in to following false doctrine.

Many of these people don't do the "sins of the flesh" but they start following false doctrine

Some claim that those who fall away were never saved in the first place which is not true.

In Mark 4:13-20, Jesus indicated that ALL received the Word initially but some fell away.
The Lord never says those that fell away never received God’s Word.

There is scripture that speaks of believers falling away in the end times. One cannot fall
away from something one had not ever received in the first place.

1 Timothy 4:1,2
Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron

("depart from the faith" is not referring to sinners in the world who never came to faith in the first place)

2 Timothy 4:3,4
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine (teaching); but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

2 Peter 2:1-3
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying (contradicting, Not agreeing with) the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.And through covetousness (idolatry) shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingers not, and their damnation slumbers not.

Jude 1:4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness (no self control, living after the flesh), and denying (contradicting, opposing Jesus’ teachings) the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. (referring to false teachers and false brethren - see Matthew 13:24-30)
(Deny = Strong's G0720… to contradict, disavow, reject, deny, refuse - and Strong's G4483… the idea of pouring forth, to utter, speak of or say, command)

Jude 1:17-21
Remember the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
These are those who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
But you, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
("those who separate themselves" is not referring to sinners in the world who were never joined unto the Lord in the first place)

*Mockers are one claiming we can sow to the flesh (sin) and not reap corruption (see Galatians 6:7,8)

 

[Brasspen]

And Charity! You must have Charity! Faith with works, and Charity.

 

[Just_A__Follower]

We will see by Scriptural understanding of faith, spirit, and body of a man, that It's not possible to have any living faith without works, even as it's not possible to have a living body without breathing.

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

This truth of the spirit and faith of a man cannot be understood by the natural man, because he rejects the things of the Spirit, and only acknowledges the things of the flesh. However, it's also true of a natural theology of man, that does confess both spirit and faith, and yet even as the carnal mind of the natural man, they also only acknowledge works as being of the body alone.

.But to understand the truth of the Scripture about faith, the spirit, and the body of man, we must have the mind of Christ, that the works of man, unlike the animals of the field, begin first with the inner man of the heart:

Heb 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Mat 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Gal 5:19
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Tim 6:3
He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

Mat 15:19
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

We see that Jesus reveals to all men, that our works are not with the body alone. But rather the works of man created in the image of God, begin first with the inner spirit and heart of man: While all the works of animals of the field are only physical, the works of all men begin with the spirit, whether for the good or evil.

Even as lusting for evil from the heart is committing the act in sight of God, so also evil thoughts and intents of the heart are works of the flesh: Idolatry, hatred, envyings, evil surmisings...

Therefore, it is impossible to have spiritual faith in the heart, without having any works at all, since the thoughts and intents of the heart are works of man, as seen and judged by God.

Conclusion: Even as it's impossible for any person to have no thoughts and intents of the heart, so also it's impossible for any person to have no works at all. Therefore, it's impossible for man to have any faith without any works, even as a body with any spirit, except it is dead.

Even as breathing the air is the work of the natural body, so also thoughts and intents of the heart is the breathing of the spirit, which is the work of the inner man. There can be no living faith without works of the spirit, even as no living body without breathing the air.

SAVED BY FAITH ALONE

 

[tablet123]

1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Charity, love in action, works, is greater than faith.

And faith works by love.

Which love is the fulfilling of the law.

If there is no works there to help people with their needs, food and clothing, or wherever they have a need then faith is dead and is not operating.

Because faith works by love.

If a person does not show love then faith does not work.

True faith has the right perspective of God's kingdom that it is love and act accordingly.

We are saved by faith and not by works when we first confess Christ for that is all we can do.

Which God gets the glory for we are in the flesh and those works cannot save.

But after that we receive the Spirit we have to do works of love by the Spirit.

Which God gets the glory for they are His works.

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Paul said he could have all faith so that he could remove mountains but if he did not have charity then he is nothing.

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James speaks of charity and says if a person does not help people with their needs then their faith is dead.

Some people say that works is a result of our faith but the works do not save us.

But the truth is the works are required which is love.

And without those works faith does not operate.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James said a person is justified by works and not faith alone.

That should say it all.

The truth is Paul and James say the same thing when a person receives the Spirit.

They do not understand when we first confess Christ and receiving the Spirit and carry not saved by works throughout their Christian walk.

Causing them to fall short.

1Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

John said if a person does not have charity then the love of God does not dwell in them which they are not showing love.

Which he says do not love in words but love in deeds, works.

For love is only valid in works which is why it is called charity which is love in action.

If there is a charity event and we say hope you guys do well with raising money but we do not give to the charity then how did we have charity.

A charity is not for receiving compliments and support of words which does not help their cause of helping people with physical needs and benefit.

But money or food or material things, their needs.

But some people do not have the money to help which they do not have to worry if they do not have it.

But we should help people if they have a need other than that.

Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

When we help a person in need or comfort them it is charity.

Preaching the Gospel is charity.

Not wanting to be worldly is charity for you are doing the work of God and causing people to like Christianity which is a need for them.

 

[Just_A__Follower]

We will see by Scriptural understanding of faith, spirit, and body of a man, that It's not possible to have any living faith without works, even as it's not possible to have a living body without breathing.

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

This truth of the spirit and faith of a man cannot be understood by the natural man, because he rejects the things of the Spirit, and only acknowledges the things of the flesh. However, it's also true of a natural theology of man, that does confess both spirit and faith, and yet even as the carnal mind of the natural man, they also only acknowledge works as being of the body alone.

.But to understand the truth of the Scripture about faith, the spirit, and the body of man, we must have the mind of Christ, that the works of man, unlike the animals of the field, begin first with the inner man of the heart:

Heb 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Mat 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Gal 5:19
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Tim 6:3
He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

Mat 15:19
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

We see that Jesus reveals to all men, that our works are not with the body alone. But rather the works of man created in the image of God, begin first with the inner spirit and heart of man: While all the works of animals of the field are only physical, the works of all men begin with the spirit, whether for the good or evil.

Even as lusting for evil from the heart is committing the act in sight of God, so also evil thoughts and intents of the heart are works of the flesh: Idolatry, hatred, envyings, evil surmisings...

Therefore, it is impossible to have spiritual faith in the heart, without having any works at all, since the thoughts and intents of the heart are works of man, as seen and judged by God.

Conclusion: Even as it's impossible for any person to have no thoughts and intents of the heart, so also it's impossible for any person to have no works at all. Therefore, it's impossible for man to have any faith without any works, even as a body with any spirit, except it is dead.

Even as breathing the air is the work of the natural body, so also thoughts and intents of the heart is the breathing of the spirit, which is the work of the inner man. There can be no living faith without works of the spirit, even as no living body without breathing the air.

Honestly though how many threads are you gonna start on the same subject? We all know you hate the phrase “Faith Alone”. We get it. It makes you nervous. Mainly because you don’t know what people mean by it and not once have you asked someone what they mean when they say it. But this is like your 4th thread you’ve started on how faith alone is bad. And the only thing you do is quote James over and over and over. We all have bibles. You don’t have to post a wall of scripture with every post. NOONE IS SAYING THAT THEY ARE SAVED BY DEAD FAITH. THEY ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT BEING SAVED BY FAITH WITHOUT WORKS. WOULD IT MAKE YOU HAPPIER IF EVERYONE JUST SAID SAVED ONLY BY FAITH INSTEAD OF FAITH ALONE?

And news flash. You’re not perfect. Your interpretations aren’t perfect. You still sin. You still make mistakes. You are human. It’s ok. We all make mistakes and all sin. It’s ok to fall as long as you pick yourself back up, dust yourself off and try again.

 

[GWH]

And then the Word of God speaks of those who were actually born again who fell away in to following false doctrine.

Many of these people don't do the "sins of the flesh" but they start following false doctrine

Some claim that those who fall away were never saved in the first place which is not true.

In Mark 4:13-20, Jesus indicated that ALL received the Word initially but some fell away.
The Lord never says those that fell away never received God’s Word.

There is scripture that speaks of believers falling away in the end times. One cannot fall
away from something one had not ever received in the first place.

1 Timothy 4:1,2
Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron

("depart from the faith" is not referring to sinners in the world who never came to faith in the first place)

2 Timothy 4:3,4
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine (teaching); but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

2 Peter 2:1-3
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying (contradicting, Not agreeing with) the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.And through covetousness (idolatry) shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingers not, and their damnation slumbers not.

Jude 1:4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness (no self control, living after the flesh), and denying (contradicting, opposing Jesus’ teachings) the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. (referring to false teachers and false brethren - see Matthew 13:24-30)
(Deny = Strong's G0720… to contradict, disavow, reject, deny, refuse - and Strong's G4483… the idea of pouring forth, to utter, speak of or say, command)

Jude 1:17-21
Remember the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
These are those who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
But you, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
("those who separate themselves" is not referring to sinners in the world who were never joined unto the Lord in the first place)

*Mockers are one claiming we can sow to the flesh (sin) and not reap corruption (see Galatians 6:7,8)

Yes, a person who claims to be godly but who is behaving in an ungodly (unloving, untruthful) manner may be in one of the following categories:

a. a normally loving person observed during a rare moment when he/she acted uncharacteristically (Phil. 3:12-16),

b. an immature Believer, who is making progress–you should have known him/her a year ago! (1Cor. 3:1-3, Eph. 4:11-15)

c. a truthseeker who has not yet learned the correct interpretation of God’s Word (1Cor. 6:9-11, Eph. 5:8-9),

d. a back-slider or prodigal Christian, who has yet to learn by painful experience the value of learning to cooperate with God’s will.

e. a pseudo-Christian (Matt. 7:21, 1John 2:19), who may affirm morality while rejecting its divine rationale.

f. an apostate (Heb. 6:4-6, 10:23-39), who once believed but became blasphemous or foolish and ship-wrecked their faith (1Tim. 1:19-20), becoming completely corrupt and callous (Matt. 13:14-15, Heb. 6:4-6).

Paul listed some sins he implied genuine Christians would not typically commit (in 1Cor. 6:9-10), saying: “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.” Apparently, although a new Christian might commit such sins occasionally, it is inconceivable (because antithetical to NT teaching) that a mature Christian would commit them so typically that the person could be classified as an adulterer, for example (1John 3:6).

Over...

 

[studier]

THEY ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT BEING SAVED BY FAITH WITHOUT WORKS

You sure about this?

 

[Just_A__Follower]

You sure about this?

None that I know. I’ve never met an actual Christian that believed they could live in sin and still be saved. I’m not talking about the ones that wear a cross around their necks for a fashion statement but have never read scripture in their lives. Those couldn’t tell you what Sola Fide translates to in English more less what was meant by it. I’m not talking about people who have heard about Jesus but the ones that know Jesus. The ones I know know that faith in Christ produces works. They also know that their works aren’t good enough to save them which is why they say they are saved by faith alone or only by faith that produces works so no one gets triggered.


@ATG unfortunately doesn’t understand that and continues to claim that when someone uses the phrase they mean they only have faith that doesn’t produce works. Apparently it’s very common for those that follow radical holiness and perfectionist theology to be triggered by this phrase. Their minds go directly to James 2:17. It’s possibly because they spend entirely too much time in James or the fact that they just misinterpret the word perfect and redefine sin. He will most likely reply to this post saying that I’m just a sinner not saved by my faith alone.

 

[Dino246]

None that I know. I’ve never met an actual Christian that believed they could live in sin and still be saved. ... The ones I know know that faith in Christ produces works. They also know that their works aren’t good enough to save them which is why they say they are saved by faith alone or only by faith that produces works so no one gets triggered.

Studier's question is fair.

Many Christians claim that they are "saved by faith alone" without works, which is biblically sound, but is not intended to be a complete theology of the Christian life.

 

[Just_A__Follower]

Studier's question is fair.

Many Christians claim that they are "saved by faith alone" without works, which is biblically sound, but is not intended to be a complete theology of the Christian life.

True but I guess it depends on how you define Christian. Since real faith produces works someone with zero works wouldn’t have faith. I guess that would be the Christian by name only category. He did say they will be known by their fruit. I guess they would more like a flowering plum tree. Pretty to look at but produce little to no fruit.

 

[Gideon300]

We will see by Scriptural understanding of faith, spirit, and body of a man, that It's not possible to have any living faith without works, even as it's not possible to have a living body without breathing.

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

This truth of the spirit and faith of a man cannot be understood by the natural man, because he rejects the things of the Spirit, and only acknowledges the things of the flesh. However, it's also true of a natural theology of man, that does confess both spirit and faith, and yet even as the carnal mind of the natural man, they also only acknowledge works as being of the body alone.

.But to understand the truth of the Scripture about faith, the spirit, and the body of man, we must have the mind of Christ, that the works of man, unlike the animals of the field, begin first with the inner man of the heart:

Heb 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Mat 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Gal 5:19
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Tim 6:3
He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

Mat 15:19
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

We see that Jesus reveals to all men, that our works are not with the body alone. But rather the works of man created in the image of God, begin first with the inner spirit and heart of man: While all the works of animals of the field are only physical, the works of all men begin with the spirit, whether for the good or evil.

Even as lusting for evil from the heart is committing the act in sight of God, so also evil thoughts and intents of the heart are works of the flesh: Idolatry, hatred, envyings, evil surmisings...

Therefore, it is impossible to have spiritual faith in the heart, without having any works at all, since the thoughts and intents of the heart are works of man, as seen and judged by God.

Conclusion: Even as it's impossible for any person to have no thoughts and intents of the heart, so also it's impossible for any person to have no works at all. Therefore, it's impossible for man to have any faith without any works, even as a body with any spirit, except it is dead.

Even as breathing the air is the work of the natural body, so also thoughts and intents of the heart is the breathing of the spirit, which is the work of the inner man. There can be no living faith without works of the spirit, even as no living body without breathing the air.

There are no "works" of the Spirit. There is the fruit of the Spirit. Jesus said that by our fruits the world will know us. (Matthew 7:16).

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, / gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law." Galatians 5:22 & 23

What do you mean by works? Giving to the poor? Attending church on Saturday? Studying the Bible 20 minutes a day? Praying and fasting? The Pharisees did all these things and better than most.

 

[Inquisitor]

There are no "works" of the Spirit. There is the fruit of the Spirit. Jesus said that by our fruits the world will know us. (Matthew 7:16).

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, / gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law." Galatians 5:22 & 23

What do you mean by works? Giving to the poor? Attending church on Saturday? Studying the Bible 20 minutes a day? Praying and fasting? The Pharisees did all these things and better than most.

Some works come to mind.

A pilgrimage to Jerusalem where you can buy a holy artifact.

Lashing yourself with a branch every time you think of sin.

10 hail Mary's plus one our Father; keep repeating.

A two year vow of silence.

Join a Monastery.

Memorize the apostles creed and keep reciting it.

Learn Koine Greek and translate the New Testament.

Book a flight to India and find the poorest suburb and spend your life there.

How come I know so many great works?

 

[Gideon300]

Some works come to mind.

A pilgrimage to Jerusalem where you can buy a holy artifact.

Lashing yourself with a branch every time you think of sin.

10 hail Mary's plus one our Father; keep repeating.

A two year vow of silence.

Join a Monastery.

Memorize the apostles creed and keep reciting it.

Learn Koine Greek and translate the New Testament.

Book a flight to India and find the poorest suburb and spend your life there.

How come I know so many great works?

Exactly. "What comes to mind". And that is the opposite of being led by the Spirit.