Faith or Law?

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

How would you know if I've submitted to God?
And no I did not lie, my opinion is based on Paul's and John's words

You haven't submitted to the Holy Spirit because you won't even obey God even though His commands are written on your heart and the Holy Spirit is waiting to empower you to carry them out

Both Paul and John talked about the Holy Spirit to be given to us to remind us of everything including obeying Him and what commands He wrote on our hearts. You're just willfully ignoring those parts of their NT books.


🕊

 

[Soyeong]

Nonsense

You are welcome to interact with what I said to explain why you disagree, though it will not surprise me if you continue to avoid doing that.

 

[James456]

You haven't submitted to the Holy Spirit because you won't even obey God even though His commands are written on your heart and the Holy Spirit is waiting to empower you to carry them out

You're just willfully ignoring those parts of their NT books.


🕊

You see how easy it is to commit sin? Here you are saying it easy not to commit sin, whilst you continually bear false witness. It is always the same with those who stress ''law'' and like to give the impression they nigh on fully obey it. In truth, you sin every day of your life.
But the bible speaks of sin in two different ways. But I worry, you are living a lifestyle of sin with all this bearing of false witness.
Just because I am humble and honest, rather than being otherwise, does not mean you live the holier life, going by your attitude I doubt you do

 

[James456]

You are welcome to interact with what I said to explain why you disagree, though it will not surprise me if you continue to avoid doing that.

'''. Rather, the fact that cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything in the Book of the Law straightforwardly means that we should continue to do everything in the Book of the Law in order to avoid being cursed and that those who rely on "works of the law" instead the Book of the Law thereby come under that curse.'''


Because Paul knows the believer will not fully obey the law they are cursed if they rely on righteousness of obeying the law!
But here you are, saying you will be cursed if you do not fully obey it!

 

[Soyeong]

Who here supports the position that we should have faith in God to guide us in how to rightly live through His law?

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

You see how easy it is to commit sin? Here you are saying it easy not to commit sin, whilst you continually bear false witness. It is always the same with those who stress ''law'' and like to give the impression they nigh on fully obey it. In truth, you sin every day of your life.
But the bible speaks of sin in two different ways. But I worry, you are living a lifestyle of sin with all this bearing of false witness.
Just because I am humble and honest, rather than being otherwise, does not mean you live the holier life, going by your attitude I doubt you do

'''. Rather, the fact that cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything in the Book of the Law straightforwardly means that we should continue to do everything in the Book of the Law in order to avoid being cursed and that those who rely on "works of the law" instead the Book of the Law thereby come under that curse.'''
Because Paul knows the believer will not fully obey the law they are cursed if they rely on righteousness of obeying the law!
But here you are, saying you will be cursed if you do not fully obey it!

Jesus got falsely accused too by the Pharisees and Sadducees. But did it stop Him from obeying His Father? No.

I've learned from Him to expect opposition and just keep following Him.


🕊

 

[Dino246]

For as long as God's character traits have been eternal the way to embody His character traits has also existed regardless of when God gave instructions to man for how to do that. For example, God's righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:142), therefore all of His righteousness laws are also eternal (Psalms 119:160). For instance, it did not suddenly become to embody God's righteousness to be a doer a charity when the law was given, but rather that has always been a way to embody His righteousness before made any covenants with man, so that is an eternally valid way to know God regardless of which covenant someone is under, if any. Sin was in the world before the law was given (Romans 5:13), which is because people could do what is contrary to God's character traits before they had been given instructions to refrain from doing that. Moreover, the fact that sin was in the world before the law was given means that there were no actions that became righteous or sinful when the law was given, but rather it revealed what has always been and will always be the way to do that.

Your run-on sentences demonstrate the confusion you have regarding the gospel.

 

[James456]

Jesus got falsely accused too by the Pharisees and Sadducees. But did it stop Him from obeying His Father? No.



🕊

Yes, Jesus got harrassed by the pharisees and saduccees for supposedly being a lawbreaker
One of the reasons stephen got arrested for was the same thing
Same with Paul, so I am in good company!
Anyway, I tire of your self exhortation, there are better discussions to be had. Have a nice day

 

[Dino246]

Who here supports the position that we should have faith in God to guide us in how to rightly live through His law?

Do you believe that the indwelling Holy Spirit gives us the guidance we need? Apparently not because you continue to appeal to the Law as our “guide”.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Yes, Jesus got harrassed by the pharisees and saduccees for supposedly being a lawbreaker
One of the reasons stephen got arrested for was the same thing
Same with Paul, so I am in good company!
Anyway, I tire of your self exortation, there are better discussions to be had. Have a nice day

You have a nice day too!


🕊

 

[Soyeong]

'''. Rather, the fact that cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything in the Book of the Law straightforwardly means that we should continue to do everything in the Book of the Law in order to avoid being cursed and that those who rely on "works of the law" instead the Book of the Law thereby come under that curse.'''


Because Paul knows the believer will not fully obey the law they are cursed if they rely on righteousness of obeying the law!
But here you are, saying you will be cursed if you do not fully obey it!

The fact that cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything in the Book of the Law leaves only one option for how to avoid being cursed. Paul did not present option that we can avoid being cursed if we refuse to obey what God has commanded as if what God wants our disobedience and will curse us for obediently relying on His instructions. God called for repentance all throughout the Bible and even Jesus began his ministry with that Gospel message (Matthew 4:15-23), so God wants our obedience. The Bible repeatedly says that the way to be blessed is by obeying God and the way to be cursed is by not obeying Him. For example, in Romans 10:5-8, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to the righteousness that is by faith proclaiming that the Law of Moses is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! In Psalms 119:1-3, the Law of Mose is the way to be blessed by walking in God's way. However, you are interpreting Galatians 3 as if Paul were saying that we will be cursed if we rely on God's instructions for how to be blessed and we will be blessed if we refuse to rely on God's instructions for how to be blessed, which is what is nonsense. It is contradictory to think that we should rely on God but not on His instructions.

 

[vassal]

And that is the problem in one sentence. Some believe that we are saved in order to obey the law. They go further and say that if you do not obey the law, you lose salvation. The root of sin is disobedience to GOD, not to a set of rules. Sure, the Christian life is a life of obedience. But no one gets to be 100 % obedient because no one is that good.

Jesus said blessed is the man who does not sin by doing what he knows is right. You can take that two ways. Many people sin because they go by slavish obedience to rules. The righteous live by faith, not by law.

The letter of the law kills. The Spirit gives life and liberty. Walk in the Spirit and everything else follows. For me to live is Christ. Christ is the end of the law because I believe. (Romans 10:4) I died to the law (Galatians 2:19).

The obsession with Law takes the glory and emphasis on Christ and puts it on those who try to obey it. They are worshiping the Law of God instead of God Himself.

Paul did not start with his usual niceties with the Galatians. He ripped into them. I believe he would be just as firm with some of the people on this forum who place the law of God above God Himself.

That reply sounds spiritual, but it is built on false choices, misused verses, and a quiet dismissal of Jesus’ own words.
Let’s dismantle it piece by piece.
First lie:
“Some believe we are saved in order to obey the law.”
Jesus never taught that. No serious follower of Jesus teaches that. Jesus taught:Repent.Believe.Follow Me.
Obedience is not the price of salvation.It is the fruit of salvation.
Straw-manning people as if they think obedience earns salvation is an old trick. It avoids dealing with what Jesus actually said.
Second lie: “The root of sin is disobedience to God, not to a set of rules.”
This sounds deep but is empty. What is sin? Jesus answered it plainly: “Sin is lawlessness.”
God’s will is not floating in the air. It is spoken. It is commanded.
You cannot separate “God” from what God commands and then pretend you are obeying Him. That is philosophy, not Scripture.
When Jesus said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments,” He did not say, “Ignore commands and follow vibes.”
Third deception: “No one gets to be 100% obedient because no one is that good.”
Correct. And irrelevant.
Jesus never said, “Be sinless or else.” He said: “Repent.” “Abide in Me.” “Take up your cross daily.” Failure is not the issue. Refusal is.

A child who stumbles while learning to walk is not disobedient. A child who says, “I refuse to walk,” is.
This argument quietly lowers the standard so people can stay comfortable in disobedience while calling it humility.
Fourth error:
“Many people sin because they go by slavish obedience to rules.” That is exactly the opposite of what Jesus taught.
Jesus rebuked people who kept rules outwardly while breaking them inwardly. He never rebuked people for obeying God too much. The Pharisees were condemned not for obedience, but for hypocrisy, pride, and ignoring mercy and justice. Obedience done without love is empty. But love that refuses obedience is fake.
Fifth manipulation:
“The righteous live by faith, not by law.”
True. And Jesus defines faith. Faith is not mental agreement. Faith is trust that follows.

Jesus said: “Whoever hears My words AND DOES THEM…”
If faith does not lead to obedience, Jesus calls it foolishness.
Sixth abuse of phrases like:
“The letter kills, the Spirit gives life.”
The Spirit does not lead people to ignore God’s commands.
The Spirit writes them on the heart.
God promised this long before Paul:
“I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes.”
The Spirit does not cancel obedience.
He creates it.

Seventh and most serious error:
“Christ is the end of the law because I believe.”
Jesus said the exact opposite: “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law.”
“Whoever breaks the least commandment and teaches others to do so…”
You cannot claim Christ while contradicting His words.

Christ is the goal of the law, not the eraser of it. He fulfills it by living it, teaching it, and writing it on the heart.
Eighth accusation:
“Those who emphasize obedience worship the law instead of God.” That is slander.
Jesus obeyed the Father perfectly. Was He worshiping the law instead of God?
Obedience is not worship of rules. Obedience is worship of God.
Jesus said: “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me.”
Was Jesus “obsessed with the law”? Or was He obedient?

Using Paul to silence Jesus is not Christianity.
Calling obedience “legalism” is not spiritual maturity.
Separating faith from obedience is not the Gospel.

Jesus will not ask: “Did you argue well against the law?”
He said:“Why do you call Me Lord, Lord, and do not do what I say?”
That question still stands.

 

[James456]

The fact that cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything in the Book of the Law leaves only one option for how to avoid being cursed. Paul did not present option that we can avoid being cursed if we refuse to obey what God has commanded as if what God wants our disobedience and will curse us for obediently relying on His instructions. God called for repentance all throughout the Bible and even Jesus began his ministry with that Gospel message (Matthew 4:15-23), so God wants our obedience. The Bible repeatedly says that the way to be blessed is by obeying God and the way to be cursed is by not obeying Him. For example, in Romans 10:5-8, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to the righteousness that is by faith proclaiming that the Law of Moses is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! In Psalms 119:1-3, the Law of Mose is the way to be blessed by walking in God's way. However, you are interpreting Galatians 3 as if Paul were saying that we will be cursed if we rely on God's instructions for how to be blessed and we will be blessed if we refuse to follow God's instructions for how to be blessed. It is contradictory to think that we should rely on God but not on His instructions.

Im really not interested, I've shown you the truth, of course you must refuse to accept it

 

[Toknow]

The truth is it is about obeying the law to be saved.

It is required of us to abstain from sin and obey the law.

For we have to deny sin to be saved.

We are saved by faith and not by works when we first confess Christ for that is all we can do.

But then we have to allow the Spirit to lead us to abstain from sin to obey the law.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual.

We do not void out the law by faith but we live up to the law by obeying the law.

Which the law is spiritual, holy just, and good.

Which are the moral laws, laws of love.

Which are to always to be obeyed and if not then no salvation.

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

If a person does not obey the law abstaining from sin there is no salvation.

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Paul said the Galatians received the Spirit by faith when they were saved.

But then rebuked them because they went back to things of the flesh not obeying the truth.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

If a person hates sin, and does not want sin, by the Spirit they can abstain from sin, and obey the law.

Therefore they are not under the law for they are abstaining from sin obeying the law so the law cannot touch them for prosecution.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Some people do not allow the Spirit to lead them and love sin more than God.

And do not come to the truth.

They say faith alone and we cannot abstain from sin.

Which means they are sinning and thinking they still have salvation.

And do not come to the truth.

It is about obeying the law and abstaining from sin to be saved.

If a person hates sin, and does not want sin, by the Spirit they can abstain from sin, and obey the law.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Hi tablet,,,,
Could you please confirm WHICH Law you're referring to?

Are you referring to THE LAW,,,

Or to the Law of Christ?

IOW, The Law was practiced in the OT and the Old Covenant (Mosaic Covenant).

We are not under The Law....

 

[Toknow]

And that is the problem in one sentence. Some believe that we are saved in order to obey the law. They go further and say that if you do not obey the law, you lose salvation. The root of sin is disobedience to GOD, not to a set of rules. Sure, the Christian life is a life of obedience. But no one gets to be 100 % obedient because no one is that good.

Jesus said blessed is the man who does not sin by doing what he knows is right. You can take that two ways. Many people sin because they go by slavish obedience to rules. The righteous live by faith, not by law.

The letter of the law kills. The Spirit gives life and liberty. Walk in the Spirit and everything else follows. For me to live is Christ. Christ is the end of the law because I believe. (Romans 10:4) I died to the law (Galatians 2:19).

The obsession with Law takes the glory and emphasis on Christ and puts it on those who try to obey it. They are worshiping the Law of God instead of God Himself.

Paul did not start with his usual niceties with the Galatians. He ripped into them. I believe he would be just as firm with some of the people on this forum who place the law of God above God Himself.

OK Gideon
What do YOU mean by THE LAW??

I fear you might be referring to the Law of Christ...

Galatians 6.2
2 Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.

And every command Jesus left us with...

 

[Toknow]

That reply sounds spiritual, but it is built on false choices, misused verses, and a quiet dismissal of Jesus’ own words.
Let’s dismantle it piece by piece.
First lie:
“Some believe we are saved in order to obey the law.”
Jesus never taught that. No serious follower of Jesus teaches that. Jesus taught:Repent.Believe.Follow Me.
Obedience is not the price of salvation.It is the fruit of salvation.
Straw-manning people as if they think obedience earns salvation is an old trick. It avoids dealing with what Jesus actually said.
Second lie: “The root of sin is disobedience to God, not to a set of rules.”
This sounds deep but is empty. What is sin? Jesus answered it plainly: “Sin is lawlessness.”
God’s will is not floating in the air. It is spoken. It is commanded.
You cannot separate “God” from what God commands and then pretend you are obeying Him. That is philosophy, not Scripture.
When Jesus said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments,” He did not say, “Ignore commands and follow vibes.”
Third deception: “No one gets to be 100% obedient because no one is that good.”
Correct. And irrelevant.
Jesus never said, “Be sinless or else.” He said: “Repent.” “Abide in Me.” “Take up your cross daily.” Failure is not the issue. Refusal is.

A child who stumbles while learning to walk is not disobedient. A child who says, “I refuse to walk,” is.
This argument quietly lowers the standard so people can stay comfortable in disobedience while calling it humility.
Fourth error:
“Many people sin because they go by slavish obedience to rules.” That is exactly the opposite of what Jesus taught.
Jesus rebuked people who kept rules outwardly while breaking them inwardly. He never rebuked people for obeying God too much. The Pharisees were condemned not for obedience, but for hypocrisy, pride, and ignoring mercy and justice. Obedience done without love is empty. But love that refuses obedience is fake.
Fifth manipulation:
“The righteous live by faith, not by law.”
True. And Jesus defines faith. Faith is not mental agreement. Faith is trust that follows.

Jesus said: “Whoever hears My words AND DOES THEM…”
If faith does not lead to obedience, Jesus calls it foolishness.
Sixth abuse of phrases like:
“The letter kills, the Spirit gives life.”
The Spirit does not lead people to ignore God’s commands.
The Spirit writes them on the heart.
God promised this long before Paul:
“I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes.”
The Spirit does not cancel obedience.
He creates it.

Seventh and most serious error:
“Christ is the end of the law because I believe.”
Jesus said the exact opposite: “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law.”
“Whoever breaks the least commandment and teaches others to do so…”
You cannot claim Christ while contradicting His words.

Christ is the goal of the law, not the eraser of it. He fulfills it by living it, teaching it, and writing it on the heart.
Eighth accusation:
“Those who emphasize obedience worship the law instead of God.” That is slander.
Jesus obeyed the Father perfectly. Was He worshiping the law instead of God?
Obedience is not worship of rules. Obedience is worship of God.
Jesus said: “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me.”
Was Jesus “obsessed with the law”? Or was He obedient?

Using Paul to silence Jesus is not Christianity.
Calling obedience “legalism” is not spiritual maturity.
Separating faith from obedience is not the Gospel.

Jesus will not ask: “Did you argue well against the law?”
He said:“Why do you call Me Lord, Lord, and do not do what I say?”
That question still stands.

Hey Vassal....
New here.
A bit confused as to what this LAW is...
but I do believe I agree with your excellent post.

I THINK!

 

[Toknow]

Your question is disingenuous. There are several people on this forum who promote strict observance of the Law as given to Moses, or parts of it.

I'm more than confused.
My question is simple and direct.
I don't know any Christian - until now maybe - that is trying to follow THE LAW...
The Law usually refers to the Law of Moses.
It's abolished.
The LAW OF MOSES is dead.
Christians are not under the Law of Moses.

 

[James456]

For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. Rom4:14

For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith Gal3:10&11

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. James2:10

It really shouldn't be hard to understand. If you rely on observing the law to be righteous before God you must perfectly obey the law, no slip ups! Hence, if you do rely on observing it to be righteous, the law brings wrath, it is a curse to you, for you will not faultlessly obey it
Believers in their hearts desire to live as God wants them to live, for God has placed that desire in them, but though they desire to live as God wants them to live, perfection is out of reach. Knowing that, does not mean you do not seek to live a holy life, for the law remains in your heart

 

[Toknow]

For as long as God's character traits have been eternal the way to embody His character traits has also existed regardless of when God gave instructions to man for how to do that. For example, God's righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:142), therefore all of His righteousness laws are also eternal (Psalms 119:160). For instance, it did not suddenly become to embody God's righteousness to be a doer a charity when the law was given, but rather that has always been a way to embody His righteousness before made any covenants with man, so that is an eternally valid way to know God regardless of which covenant someone is under, if any. Sin was in the world before the law was given (Romans 5:13), which is because people could do what is contrary to God's character traits before they had been given instructions to refrain from doing that. Moreover, the fact that sin was in the world before the law was given means that there were no actions that became righteous or sinful when the law was given, but rather it revealed what has always been and will always be the way to do that.

Agreed.

Paul addresses this in his letter to the

Romans 2:14-15
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

 

[James456]

Agreed.

Paul addresses this in his letter to the

Romans 2:14-15
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

Soyeong does not believe the law of Moses is dead, it must be followed