Pre Trib or Post trib rapture?

[Omegatime]

Revelation 6:16
calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;

Wrath of the Lamb in the Tribulation and many many more similar verses

 

[faithlife]

The Bible promises us that no believer will suffer the Wrath of God.

Please understand that 'tribulation' and 'wrath' are not the same thing - please try to understand this.

The Bible promises us that no believer will suffer the Wrath of God.

Please understand that 'tribulation' and 'wrath' are not the same thing - please try to understand this.

If 'no believer will suffer the wrath of God' then how can they be here during the Great Tribulation?

 

[GaryA]

"Also, I can't fathom our Perfect Heavenly Father leaving His obedient children here to bear the persecution of the a/c along with the lukewarm Christians, unbelievers and the bad. Many many left behind will recognize what happened, just as Christians & the Word foretold, and decide they want to go to Heaven. They will be on the run and persecuted."



Read the Foxe's Book of Martyrs. Read about Jesus' death. Read about the persecution of the 12 Disciples. Read about the current church being persecuted around the world. Read about how much persecution the Roman Catholic Church has persecuted both the Jews and the Protestants. Read about how Hitler murdered the Jews.

Entitled Christians in the America think no trials will come upon them... "Oh no, not me. I'm gonna get raptured, before any trials come." All I got to say, be very thankful we live in the West, where Christianity hasn't cost you a whole lot. In other countries, people fear for their life every day.

NO ONE in history was more 'obedient' than the martyrs of the Dark Ages - tortured and put to death for holding to and standing up for the truth of scripture. These are the "souls under the altar" in these verses:

Revelation 6:

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The "fellowservants that should be killed as they were" are those who are beheaded for not worshipping the beast or taking his mark:

Revelation 20:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[GaryA]

To believe the Heavenly Father would allow His wrath to fall upon the righteous along with sinners just doesn't sound like a perfect God.

Again - you need to understand that 'tribulation' and 'wrath' are not the same thing in scripture. No Wrath of God will fall upon the righteous.

The ones 'left behind' and then convert, will be the ones who will fall under persecution.

The only ones who are 'left behind' will be those who have not believed upon Christ at the time of His coming. The 'trib' has already ended at that point in time.

 

[faithlife]

Again - you need to understand that 'tribulation' and 'wrath' are not the same thing in scripture. No Wrath of God will fall upon the righteous.


The only ones who are 'left behind' will be those who have not believed upon Christ at the time of His coming. The 'trib' has already ended at that point in time.

You 'No Wrath of God will fall upon the righteous' so again how can the righteous be here esp through the Great Trib, which is the Wrath of God, the 2nd half of the trib?

 

[GaryA]

Although it is written that God allows Satan to have power to overcome the saints, I believe those “saints” are not referring to us.

Well - yes and no...

First - please see post #383 - then...

Revelation 13:

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

I believe that 'make war with the saints' in this verse is referring to the "souls under the altar" - the martyrs of the Dark Ages.

 

[Omegatime]

If 'no believer will suffer the wrath of God' then how can they be here during the Great Tribulation?

-------------------------------------
Need to understand many unbelievers will come to the Lord during first half of the Tribulation. Most tho will pay with their lives.

Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; 10 they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

The removal of saints pre-tribulation is the reason God brings Enoch and Elijah back and sends out the 144,000. Lord wouldn't have done this if 2 plus billion christians were here

 

[GaryA]

Like Hebrews 9:28?

Only pride and arrogance believes that post-trib folks are not looking for Him to appear...

Hebrews 9:

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

- the second time.

There is no 'third' time.

 

[GaryA]

If 'no believer will suffer the wrath of God' then how can they be here during the Great Tribulation?

Because because because --- the 'Great Tribulation' is not the 'Wrath of God' - how many times do I have to say it before you understand what I am saying?????

You MUST learn the difference between 'tribulation' and the 'Wrath of God'. Then you may understand it properly.

 

[GaryA]

You 'No Wrath of God will fall upon the righteous' so again how can the righteous be here esp through the Great Trib, which is the Wrath of God, the 2nd half of the trib?

You will never come to grips with this until you learn, understand, and are convinced that 'tribulation' is not the same thing as 'wrath'.

We can agree to disagree agreeably; however, I am telling you - in scripture, 'tribulation' and 'wrath' are not the same thing - period.

And, you need to understand this - so, keep studying...

 

[Omegatime]

Only pride and arrogance believes that post-trib folks are not looking for Him to appear...

Hebrews 9:

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

- the second time.

There is no 'third' time.

-------------------------------------------------------
Then explain Rev 14

14 Then I looked, and lo, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to him who sat upon the cloud, “Put in your sickle, and reap, for the hour to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe.” 16 So he who sat upon the cloud swung his sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 Then another angel came out from the altar, the angel who has power over fire, and he called with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Put in your sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for its grapes are ripe.” 19 So the angel swung his sickle on the earth and gathered the vintage of the earth, and threw it into the great wine press of the wrath of God; 20 and the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the wine press, as high as a horse’s bridle, for one thousand six hundred stadia

Who is being reaped????????????????????

 

[GaryA]

-------------------------------------------------------
Then explain Rev 14

14 Then I looked, and lo, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to him who sat upon the cloud, “Put in your sickle, and reap, for the hour to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe.” 16 So he who sat upon the cloud swung his sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 Then another angel came out from the altar, the angel who has power over fire, and he called with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Put in your sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for its grapes are ripe.” 19 So the angel swung his sickle on the earth and gathered the vintage of the earth, and threw it into the great wine press of the wrath of God; 20 and the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the wine press, as high as a horse’s bridle, for one thousand six hundred stadia

Who is being reaped????????????????????

The 'righteous' - born-again Christians - this is the rapture. And, following it, is the 'Wrath of God'.

And - no child of God experiences the 'Wrath of God'.

The rapture occurs before the 'Wrath of God' but not before the 'Great Tribulation'.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

You will never come to grips with this until you learn, understand, and are convinced that 'tribulation' is not the same thing as 'wrath'.

We can agree to disagree agreeably; however, I am telling you - in scripture, 'tribulation' and 'wrath' are not the same thing - period.

And, you need to understand this - so, keep studying...

How are you preparing for the great tribulation? Are you building up your faith to endure in Christ to the very end (whether death or the Lord's return)? That is the most important thing to Him.

 

[Omegatime]

The 'righteous' - born-again Christians - this is the rapture. And, following it, is the 'Wrath of God'.

And - no child of God experiences the 'Wrath of God'.

The rapture occurs before the 'Wrath of God' but not before the 'Great Tribulation'.

------------------------------------------------
Please explain the Sheep/Goat judgement

Mat 25:31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne

Gee whiz--another coming

 

[GaryA]

The Bible promises us that no believer will suffer the Wrath of God.

Please understand that 'tribulation' and 'wrath' are not the same thing - please try to understand this.

Again - you need to understand that 'tribulation' and 'wrath' are not the same thing in scripture. No Wrath of God will fall upon the righteous.


The only ones who are 'left behind' will be those who have not believed upon Christ at the time of His coming. The 'trib' has already ended at that point in time.

Because because because --- the 'Great Tribulation' is not the 'Wrath of God' - how many times do I have to say it before you understand what I am saying?????

You MUST learn the difference between 'tribulation' and the 'Wrath of God'. Then you may understand it properly.

You will never come to grips with this until you learn, understand, and are convinced that 'tribulation' is not the same thing as 'wrath'.

We can agree to disagree agreeably; however, I am telling you - in scripture, 'tribulation' and 'wrath' are not the same thing - period.

And, you need to understand this - so, keep studying...

@faithlife - the only thing that I ask of you is that you acknowledge that you understand what I am saying. Whether you wish to agree with it or not is your choice. But, it would be really nice if you would simply acknowledge that you understand what I am saying.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

------------------------------------------------
Please explain the Sheep/Goat judgement

Mat 25:31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne

Gee whiz--another coming

Why should you be disagree with my post? YOU think you're going to be raptured before that and think all the post-trib believers will be left behind.

So what is wrong with us preparing for the GT if we're left behind?

 

[kinda]

I really don't think of myself as entitled, only in the respect of the honor of representing the Lord in my everyday life. We all have a part to fulfill, I reach out to homeless ones and help them in some way, ask them if they know the Lord and pray with them. Some have to be Pastors, some teachers/Preachers, missionaries, and yes martys.
Throughout the Bible, the Lord has spared His own when He was going to destroy sinners. Noah's Ark, Sodom & Gomorrah, Passover and so forth. Some disciples gave their lives willingly back in the day but it was their choice.
I can't see how an earthly father would put his obedient children through a vicious punishment along with his unruly defiant ones. To believe the Heavenly Father would allow His wrath to fall upon the righteous along with sinners just doesn't sound like a perfect God. The ones 'left behind' and then convert, will be the ones who will fall under persecution.
Back awhile on TBN, they had a debate on pre, mid or post trib. The audience wanted their stand on it. Paul Crouch said he prayed about it, and one of the only 2 times he said he heard the voice of God, He said 'tell them to just 'Be Ready'. So that sounds good to me.

faithlife, did you notice how my posts are filled with scripture, that clearly demonstrates, why that pretribulation is a hoax by Darby, and a second coming of Christ coincides, with the meeting of saints?

While your response is well.....feelings.....and quoting Paul Crouch.

Once again...Kirk Cameron response. "I seen Left Behind, I know the pretribulation rapture is true".

It's absolutely silly discussing this matter with Darbities. Feelings and Paul Crouch is a pretty hard wall to over come. Que Sera Sera


2 Peter 3:10

The Day of the Lord
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be [a]burned up.


After the judgements of earth, the Lord will return like a thief in the night, it will literally unwind the heavens, and the human works on earth will be no more. There is no secret, beam me up Scotty for the Western Church, because they watch TBN. When the Lord returns everyone alive will know, and the dead and Christ will rise first.

By saying, there is a secret rapture, you are literally implying, that the dead in Christ who died in the tribulation, are raised second, possibly third. How many resurrections of the saints do Darbities believe in? (Rhetorical quetsion). It just doesn't add up, do the math. O.k., whatever. Pretribulation rapture is a Christian fairy tale.

So, at this point......

 

[GaryA]

One of the absolute worst things that pre-trib folks do is to absolutely refuse to acknowledge what post-trib folks (or anyone else) are saying - just for the sake of discussion and understanding. To admit that you understand what someone is saying does not automatically also mean that you agree with them. It is a good thing. It helps the flow of discussion. It helps mutual understanding. It does not make less of your view with regard to your right to believe it.

To not be able to do this (acknowledgment) - or to refuse to do this - only demonstrates the level of cognitive dissonance you are experiencing.

Otherwise, it is a pride and arrogance issue.

What remains is - for as long as you refuse to acknowledge what we are saying (simply for the sake of understanding - being "on the same page") - we cannot have a productive discussion.

It is that simple.

 

[faithlife]

@faithlife - the only thing that I ask of you is that you acknowledge that you understand what I am saying. Whether you wish to agree with it or not is your choice. But, it would be really nice if you would simply acknowledge that you understand what I am saying.

I'll agreeably disagree to agree with your premise and I can't acknowledge that I understand what you're attempting to explain. Now I ask of you if YOU, lol, will acknowledge what I'm asking in the above post that the last 3-1/2 yrs of the trib are called 'the Great Trib' bc the 'WRATH OF GOD' will be poured down on earth. So how can the righteous be here if your Biblical quote says 'no righteous will experience the WRATH OF GOD'? (and yes I do realize the believers who converted and still alive will be here)


the wrath of God intensifies significantly and is poured out heavily during the last half of the seven-year tribulation, often called "The Great Tribulation". While the first 3 1/2 years involve persecution by the Antichrist, the final 3 1/2 years are characterized by the seven bowls of God's wrath. The Great Tribulation (Last 3.5 Years): This period is defined by intense, direct divine judgments against the kingdom of the Antichrist and rebellious humanity.

 

[kinda]

NO ONE in history was more 'obedient' than the martyrs of the Dark Ages - tortured and put to death for holding to and standing up for the truth of scripture. These are the "souls under the altar" in these verses:

Revelation 6:

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The "fellowservants that should be killed as they were" are those who are beheaded for not worshipping the beast or taking his mark:

Revelation 20:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Why would you say that? (Referring to the dark ages martyrs) I mean it's definitely possible and there were definitely martyrs in the past, but it doesn't specifically say, does it?

Is it not possible, that these are recently killed saints?

If you look at Revelation Chapter 6....

7 When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” 8 I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

You can see that sword, famine, famine, plague, and wild beasts just killed a 4th of the earth. Well, that's the way it looks to me. Then, in first 9, the slain are asking, when will we get justice.

It's very possible, that the non-believers will be blaming Christians for all the plagues, that happen on earth during the tribulation. They will take up their swords and kill Christians without question. You can already see how culturally Christians are viewed in the mainstream...

Also, one would think, the revenge is still possible, if they have been recently killed. I don't think is necessarily a make or break interpretation, but since you brought it up, figure it's worth a little discussion. lol

I really don't know for sure, but this is getting into detail in the topic, which is better than feelings, or Paul Crouch form TBN said.. lol