Pre Trib or Post trib rapture?

[tttallison]

In Dan 9:27 you are saying the Prince that is to come is going to make desolate the world because of abominations of the world. Why would Satan want to make desolations because of abominations?

Besides that it looks like you are talking about 3 and a half years, not seven.

I capitalized Prince because that is what my bible has.

 

[Edward429451]

Precious friend @Edward429451, have you considered "Right Division" to help unpack it?:

There's not much to unpack and I do understand what it means. I meant posttribbers but wrote pretribbers! I was trying to get the posttribbers to tell me what they it means since they are of a posttrib view.

None of them have even tried to give it's meaning and so that's very telling! It shows that they did understand it!

I guess the one who asked for a single verse to understand was blessed by God and received it. Now they will chew on it for a few days and maybe come around or maybe ignore it to their peril.

 

[Psalm1]

Yes sir Brother. Does not deal with Sin, so this is no Judgment coming. Jesus makes a special trip for His Bride. In the air and He will not touch the ground.

From the post tribbers tone it's almost like they think we are doing some sort of bad or evil thing by believing in a pre trib rapture. I just checked and it's overcast so the rapture can still happen today! Maybe. So what evil have I done? Well it's like you say, they are not eagerly awaiting Jesus's return! Pre tribbers do!

It reminds me of the resentment from Obama worshippers toward patriots.

They don't know why they hate us...they just do.
That is why we are seen as evil and cowards.
Some if them declare we are not saved.

Since they can not defend their position, they go extra biblical and attack our character rather than debating concept vs concept.
( messenger for them, trumps the message)

 

[Psalm1]

In Dan 9:27 you are saying the Prince that is to come is going to make desolate the world because of abominations of the world. Why would Satan want to make desolations because of abominations?

Besides that it looks like you are talking about 3 and a half years, not seven.

I capitalized Prince because that is what my bible has.

About half the members here either deny the 7 yr trib or go super definition.
(Trib is not great trib, great trib is not wrath, and wrath is neither.)

Then they take supposed definitions of those time slots and add tons of their own thoughts to it.

 

[Melach]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wish to add

This prophecy does not appear to have anything to do with the dead in Christ but the living only.

Just as the Lord said as in the days of Noah and Lot , it shall be again

But as the rapture ( catching up ) happens, the judgement begins ( Tribulation )

One more thing----one will be taken, one left

I count about 4 Billion taken---------4 Billion left behind

4 billion, even nominal christianity which includes catholics who dont know God's grace, is about 2 billion people?

 

[tttallison]

About half the members here either deny the 7 yr trib or go super definition.
(Trib is not great trib, great trib is not wrath, and wrath is neither.)

Then they take supposed definitions of those time slots and add tons of their own thoughts to it.

If there is a seven year tribulation period it should be clear in the bible. All you have to do is show that it clearly exists using scripture and maybe that other half would accept it.

 

[Omegatime]

4 billion, even nominal christianity which includes catholics who dont know God's grace, is about 2 billion people?

---------------------------------------
I understand what you are saying but i was only considering what was written in the scriptures

 

[Melach]

If there is a seven year tribulation period it should be clear in the bible. All you have to do is show that it clearly exists using scripture and maybe that other half would accept it.

the dispensationalists and many others who hold to this view get the 7 year tribulation from daniel 9:26-27. they believe there is a gap there between the 69th and 70th week. and that the last week is still awaiting fulfillment.

me and many others believe the 70 weeks have already been fulfilled long time ago

 

[tttallison]

I concur. I would have liked for them to have discussed where they find this seven-year period in the Bible because it is not in the Bible. In Dan 9:24 we are given the purpose of the 70th week. There are six things, and they are all related to Jesus.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

1. To finish the transgression.

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. (Mat 5:17)

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

2. To make an end of sins.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

3. To make reconciliation for iniquity.

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Luk 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

1Pe 1:18-19 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

4. To bring in everlasting righteousness.

Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Psa 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

5. To seal up the vision and prophecy.

Jhn 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

Jhn 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

6. To anoint the most Holy.

Mar 1:24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.

 

[faithlife]

If there is no pretrib, do posttrib believers think God's wrath will be poured out on His obedient children as well as unbelievers?

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

If there is no pretrib, do posttrib believers think God's wrath will be poured out on His obedient children as well as unbelievers?

You can't tell the difference between satan's wrath (the great tribulation) and God’s wrath?

Besides, God’s wrath won't even touch us even if we're still here for God’s seven bowl Judgements. God totally protected His people when He inflicted the plagues on the Egyptians. So its not even something to worry about.

 

[faithlife]

You can't tell the difference between satan's wrath (the great tribulation) and God’s wrath?

Besides, God’s wrath won't even touch us even if we're still here for God’s seven bowl Judgements. God totally protected His people when He inflicted the plagues on the Egyptians. So its not even something to worry about.

Firstly I'm not trying to argue, just giving my perspective and many others. Who do you think 'the Restrainer' is in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7, the "restrainer" is described as a person or force currently holding back the "mystery of lawlessness" ? So then you also think believers will be here when the antichrist comes out? Certainly believers in the know would know he's the a/c and have to go into hiding or be martyrs if they point him out. So how would they (the Church/Body of Christ which is large) be protected along with the ones that get converted afterwards from persecution?

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Firstly I'm not trying to argue, just giving my perspective and many others. Who do you think 'the Restrainer' is in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7, the "restrainer" is described as a person or force currently holding back the "mystery of lawlessness" ? So then you also think believers will be here when the antichrist comes out? Certainly believers in the know would know he's the a/c and have to go into hiding or be martyrs if they point him out. So how would they (the Church/Body of Christ which is large) be protected along with the ones that get converted afterwards from persecution?

You don't get. The Bible says the ac will succeed in conquering the Christians. Most of us will be executed for not worshipping him or taking his mark.

But we're Christians, so death has no sting - absent from the body, present with the Lord. Or don't you believe that?

The Bible never says the restrainer is the Holy Spirit. It would have pla8nly said so if the restrainer is Him. He isn't the only one that can hold back satan and lawlessness. Remember that it's just satan, a mere fallen angel. Angels like Michael are more than enough to restrain him until the ac is revealed.

Bes8des, the Holy Spirit has greater work helping Christians endure unto death or to the end during the great tribulation, and saving new believers. What are you expecting Him to do in the meantime if He's raptured into heaven, when He is more needed down here?

Please build up your fath to endure in Christ!

 

[Edward429451]

If there is no pretrib, do posttrib believers think God's wrath will be poured out on His obedient children as well as unbelievers?

Yeah, Jesus said we'll go out and let you get the crap beat out of you, and then we'll go to dinner! They think this is how much Jesus loves them.

The Jesus I know loves me more than that.

 

[tttallison]

Firstly I'm not trying to argue, just giving my perspective and many others. Who do you think 'the Restrainer' is in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7, the "restrainer" is described as a person or force currently holding back the "mystery of lawlessness" ? So then you also think believers will be here when the antichrist comes out? Certainly believers in the know would know he's the a/c and have to go into hiding or be martyrs if they point him out. So how would they (the Church/Body of Christ which is large) be protected along with the ones that get converted afterwards from persecution?

The restrainer is Michael the archangel.

Dan 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

 

[faithlife]

You don't get. The Bible says the ac will succeed in conquering the Christians. Most of us will be executed for not worshipping him or taking his mark.

But we're Christians, so death has no sting - absent from the body, present with the Lord. Or don't you believe that?

The Bible never says the restrainer is the Holy Spirit. It would have pla8nly said so if the restrainer is Him. He isn't the only one that can hold back satan and lawlessness. Remember that it's just satan, a mere fallen angel. Angels like Michael are more than enough to restrain him until the ac is revealed.

Bes8des, the Holy Spirit has greater work helping Christians endure unto death or to the end during the great tribulation, and saving new believers. What are you expecting Him to do in the meantime if He's raptured into heaven, when He is more needed down here?

Please build up your fath to endure in Christ!

'Based on 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7, where Paul speaks of a force hindering the "man of lawlessness" (Antichrist) from being revealed, the majority of modern evangelical scholars identify the restrainer as the Holy Spirit.
Many proponents of this view further refine this, arguing that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit working through the Church (the body of believers'.
Once the Restrainer is removed, this causes Antichrist’s revelation, resulting in Antichrist taking his seat in the temple and proclaiming himself as God (2 Thess 2:4) The Holy Spirit is here to be removed, not Michael the archangel. The Restrainer is a force capable of holding back the a/c. We would expose him right off the bat.
Also, I can't fathom our Perfect Heavenly Father leaving His obedient children here to bear the persecution of the a/c along with the lukewarm Christians, unbelievers and the bad. Many many left behind will recognize what happened, just as Christians & the Word foretold, and decide they want to go to Heaven. They will be on the run and persecuted.
Again, not stating this to be in a battle, rather I'm building up my most holy faith to 'be ready' for the 'harpizo' (catching up) of those indeed being spared this coming endtime scenario☝☝☝

@tttallison also

 

[tttallison]

'Based on 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7, where Paul speaks of a force hindering the "man of lawlessness" (Antichrist) from being revealed, the majority of modern evangelical scholars identify the restrainer as the Holy Spirit.
Many proponents of this view further refine this, arguing that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit working through the Church (the body of believers'.
Once the Restrainer is removed, this causes Antichrist’s revelation, resulting in Antichrist taking his seat in the temple and proclaiming himself as God (2 Thess 2:4) The Holy Spirit is here to be removed, not Michael the archangel. The Restrainer is a force capable of holding back the a/c. We would expose him right off the bat.
Also, I can't fathom our Perfect Heavenly Father leaving His obedient children here to bear the persecution of the a/c along with the lukewarm Christians, unbelievers and the bad. Many many left behind will recognize what happened, just as Christians & the Word foretold, and decide they want to go to Heaven. They will be on the run and persecuted.
Again, not stating this to be in a battle, rather I'm building up my most holy faith to 'be ready' for the 'harpizo' (catching up) of those indeed being spared this coming endtime scenario☝☝☝

@tttallison also

The Bible is a Jewish book. Jesus said, Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The book of Daniel is a Jewish Book as well as the book of Revelation, both written to the Jews.

Unless you read the Bible as written to the Jews you will be hard pressed to understand it.

Can you not see that it is Michael the archangel who stands between Satan and Israel who would be restraining Satan and not the Holy Spirit.

Read carefully the following verses.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (A time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation. Isn't this your tribulation period?)

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

 

[kinda]

"Also, I can't fathom our Perfect Heavenly Father leaving His obedient children here to bear the persecution of the a/c along with the lukewarm Christians, unbelievers and the bad. Many many left behind will recognize what happened, just as Christians & the Word foretold, and decide they want to go to Heaven. They will be on the run and persecuted."



Read the Foxe's Book of Martyrs. Read about Jesus' death. Read about the persecution of the 12 Disciples. Read about the current church being persecuted around the world. Read about how much persecution the Roman Catholic Church has persecuted both the Jews and the Protestants. Read about how Hitler murdered the Jews.

Entitled Christians in the America think no trials will come upon them... "Oh no, not me. I'm gonna get raptured, before any trials come." All I got to say, be very thankful we live in the West, where Christianity hasn't cost you a whole lot. In other countries, people fear for their life every day.

In Revelation 7:14-17, it is stated that "These are they which came out of the great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

14 And I said to him, [a]“Sir, you know.”

So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to [b]living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”



Commentary on Revelation 7:14-17
" This passage describes a group of individuals who have emerged from a challenging period of persecution, symbolized by the washing of their robes in the blood of the Lamb. They are promised eternal rest and are before the throne of God, serving Him day and night. This imagery often refers to the Christian faithful who endure trials and tribulations, ultimately finding redemption and peace. "

Revelation 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years.


Matthew 24
The Coming of the Son of Man

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [a]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


1 Thessalonians 4
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


(d) 1 Thessalonians 4:15 (Dead)


Those who are alive when the Lord returns, will not proceed those who are dead in the gathering of saints in heaven. The elect are gathered after the tribulation (see Matthew 24). The elect will be headed for not taking the mark of the beast, during the tribulation. THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE WHEN THE LORD RETURNS, WILL NOT PROCEED THOSE WHO ARE DEAD. THE ELECT ARE GATHERED AFTER THE TRIBULATION (SEE MATTHEW 24:29-31).

lol Come on people, try to understand....

 

[Omegatime]

The Bible is a Jewish book. Jesus said, Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The book of Daniel is a Jewish Book as well as the book of Revelation, both written to the Jews.

Unless you read the Bible as written to the Jews you will be hard pressed to understand it.

Can you not see that it is Michael the archangel who stands between Satan and Israel who would be restraining Satan and not the Holy Spirit.

Read carefully the following verses.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (A time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation. Isn't this your tribulation period?)

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

------------------------------------------------

Are you a Jehovah witness??????

 

[faithlife]

"Also, I can't fathom our Perfect Heavenly Father leaving His obedient children here to bear the persecution of the a/c along with the lukewarm Christians, unbelievers and the bad. Many many left behind will recognize what happened, just as Christians & the Word foretold, and decide they want to go to Heaven. They will be on the run and persecuted."



Read the Foxe's Book of Martyrs. Read about Jesus' death. Read about the persecution of the 12 Disciples. Read about the current church being persecuted around the world. Read about how much persecution the Roman Catholic Church has persecuted both the Jews and the Protestants. Read about how Hitler murdered the Jews.

Entitled Christians in the America think no trials will come upon them... "Oh no, not me. I'm gonna get raptured, before any trials come." All I got to say, be very thankful we live in the West, where Christianity hasn't cost you a whole lot. In other countries, people fear for their life every day.

In Revelation 7:14-17, it is stated that "These are they which came out of the great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

14 And I said to him, [a]“Sir, you know.”

So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to [b]living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”



Commentary on Revelation 7:14-17
" This passage describes a group of individuals who have emerged from a challenging period of persecution, symbolized by the washing of their robes in the blood of the Lamb. They are promised eternal rest and are before the throne of God, serving Him day and night. This imagery often refers to the Christian faithful who endure trials and tribulations, ultimately finding redemption and peace. "

Revelation 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years.


Matthew 24
The Coming of the Son of Man

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [a]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


1 Thessalonians 4
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


(d) 1 Thessalonians 4:15 (Dead)


Those who are alive when the Lord returns, will not proceed those who are dead in the gathering of saints in heaven. The elect are gathered after the tribulation (see Matthew 24). The elect will be headed for not taking the mark of the beast, during the tribulation. THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE WHEN THE LORD RETURNS, WILL NOT PROCEED THOSE WHO ARE DEAD. THE ELECT ARE GATHERED AFTER THE TRIBULATION (SEE MATTHEW 24:29-31).

lol Come on people, try to understand....

I really don't think of myself as entitled, only in the respect of the honor of representing the Lord in my everyday life. We all have a part to fulfill, I reach out to homeless ones and help them in some way, ask them if they know the Lord and pray with them. Some have to be Pastors, some teachers/Preachers, missionaries, and yes martys.
Throughout the Bible, the Lord has spared His own when He was going to destroy sinners. Noah's Ark, Sodom & Gomorrah, Passover and so forth. Some disciples gave their lives willingly back in the day but it was their choice.
I can't see how an earthly father would put his obedient children through a vicious punishment along with his unruly defiant ones. To believe the Heavenly Father would allow His wrath to fall upon the righteous along with sinners just doesn't sound like a perfect God. The ones 'left behind' and then convert, will be the ones who will fall under persecution.
Back awhile on TBN, they had a debate on pre, mid or post trib. The audience wanted their stand on it. Paul Crouch said he prayed about it, and one of the only 2 times he said he heard the voice of God, He said 'tell them to just 'Be Ready'. So that sounds good to me.