The Vines Greek dictionaries definition of saving faith.

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This is discipleship language, not justification language.
You have merged:
Faith (the means of receiving salvation) with discipleship (the life of following Christ)

What pisteuō Actually Means in the NT
The overwhelming majority of NT uses especially by John & Paul, mean:
To believe, to trust, to rely upon, to place confidence in.

This is exactly the confusion Paul fights in Galatians.

Paul repeatedly separates:
Faith for justification from Obedience as the fruit of justification.

Examples:
Rom 4:5, to him that worketh not, but believeth, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Gal 2:16, not justified by works… but by faith in Christ.”
Eph 2:8–9, not of works.
Phil 3:9, not having my own righteousness… but that which is through faith in Christ.
Faith produces obedience (Rom 1:5). Obedience flows from faith (16:26).

The OP takes Vine's descriptive comments & turns them into a prescriptive definition. That's not how lexicons work.
If you applied the OP'S definition consistently, you'd have to translate:
Jn 3:16, whoever surrenders daily
Jn 20:31, that you may surrender daily & have life
Acts 10:43, whoever surrenders daily receives remission of sins. That's not translation. That's theology being smuggled into the lexicon.

This is Works-Based Theology in Disguise
The posts says:

Saving faith is > daily surrender > sustained by confidence > decisions we make. That is ongoing performance.
If your salvation depends on:
Daily surrender, hourly surrender, decisions you make, conduct inspired by surrender

Then salvation is no longer a gift received by faith. It is a lifestyle maintained by effort. That is the very definition of works.

The Biblical Bedrock (Not presented in the OP). The NT consistently teaches:
Saving faith = trusting in Christ & His finished sacrificial sin atoning work.
Then:
Obedience, surrender & conduct = the fruit of salvation, not the definition of faith.

This keeps the categories clean:
Faith = Trust in Christ for salvation

Works = Evidence of salvation

Discipleship = Following Christ after salvation

Sanctification = Growth in obedience

Justification = Declared righteous by faith alone. This post collapses all 5 into one word: pisteuō

Can We Find Our Way Back?

Absolutely, but only by returning to the apostolic pattern:
Faith alone in Christ alone for justification. Works as the fruit, never the definition, of faith.



The OP takes Vine's descriptive comments & turns them into a prescriptive definition. That's not how lexicons work.
If you applied the OP'S definition consistently, you'd have to translate:
Jn 3:16, whoever surrenders daily
Jn 20:31, that you may surrender daily & have life
Acts 10:43, whoever surrenders daily receives remission of sins. That's not translation. That's theology being smuggled into the lexicon.

Yes that's exactly how it should read. Your getting it.
 
This is discipleship language, not justification language.
You have merged:
Faith (the means of receiving salvation) with discipleship (the life of following Christ)

What pisteuō Actually Means in the NT
The overwhelming majority of NT uses especially by John & Paul, mean:
To believe, to trust, to rely upon, to place confidence in.

This is exactly the confusion Paul fights in Galatians.

Paul repeatedly separates:
Faith for justification from Obedience as the fruit of justification.

Examples:
Rom 4:5, to him that worketh not, but believeth, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Gal 2:16, not justified by works… but by faith in Christ.”
Eph 2:8–9, not of works.
Phil 3:9, not having my own righteousness… but that which is through faith in Christ.
Faith produces obedience (Rom 1:5). Obedience flows from faith (16:26).

The OP takes Vine's descriptive comments & turns them into a prescriptive definition. That's not how lexicons work.
If you applied the OP'S definition consistently, you'd have to translate:
Jn 3:16, whoever surrenders daily
Jn 20:31, that you may surrender daily & have life
Acts 10:43, whoever surrenders daily receives remission of sins. That's not translation. That's theology being smuggled into the lexicon.

This is Works-Based Theology in Disguise
The posts says:

Saving faith is > daily surrender > sustained by confidence > decisions we make. That is ongoing performance.
If your salvation depends on:
Daily surrender, hourly surrender, decisions you make, conduct inspired by surrender

Then salvation is no longer a gift received by faith. It is a lifestyle maintained by effort. That is the very definition of works.

The Biblical Bedrock (Not presented in the OP). The NT consistently teaches:
Saving faith = trusting in Christ & His finished sacrificial sin atoning work.
Then:
Obedience, surrender & conduct = the fruit of salvation, not the definition of faith.

This keeps the categories clean:
Faith = Trust in Christ for salvation

Works = Evidence of salvation

Discipleship = Following Christ after salvation

Sanctification = Growth in obedience

Justification = Declared righteous by faith alone. This post collapses all 5 into one word: pisteuō

Can We Find Our Way Back?

Absolutely, but only by returning to the apostolic pattern:
Faith alone in Christ alone for justification. Works as the fruit, never the definition, of faith.

The lexicons are all contaminated by the mistranslation of pisteuo.
 
This is discipleship language, not justification language.
You have merged:
Faith (the means of receiving salvation) with discipleship (the life of following Christ)

What pisteuō Actually Means in the NT
The overwhelming majority of NT uses especially by John & Paul, mean:
To believe, to trust, to rely upon, to place confidence in.

This is exactly the confusion Paul fights in Galatians.

Paul repeatedly separates:
Faith for justification from Obedience as the fruit of justification.

Examples:
Rom 4:5, to him that worketh not, but believeth, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Gal 2:16, not justified by works… but by faith in Christ.”
Eph 2:8–9, not of works.
Phil 3:9, not having my own righteousness… but that which is through faith in Christ.
Faith produces obedience (Rom 1:5). Obedience flows from faith (16:26).

The OP takes Vine's descriptive comments & turns them into a prescriptive definition. That's not how lexicons work.
If you applied the OP'S definition consistently, you'd have to translate:
Jn 3:16, whoever surrenders daily
Jn 20:31, that you may surrender daily & have life
Acts 10:43, whoever surrenders daily receives remission of sins. That's not translation. That's theology being smuggled into the lexicon.

This is Works-Based Theology in Disguise
The posts says:

Saving faith is > daily surrender > sustained by confidence > decisions we make. That is ongoing performance.
If your salvation depends on:
Daily surrender, hourly surrender, decisions you make, conduct inspired by surrender

Then salvation is no longer a gift received by faith. It is a lifestyle maintained by effort. That is the very definition of works.

The Biblical Bedrock (Not presented in the OP). The NT consistently teaches:
Saving faith = trusting in Christ & His finished sacrificial sin atoning work.
Then:
Obedience, surrender & conduct = the fruit of salvation, not the definition of faith.

This keeps the categories clean:
Faith = Trust in Christ for salvation

Works = Evidence of salvation

Discipleship = Following Christ after salvation

Sanctification = Growth in obedience

Justification = Declared righteous by faith alone. This post collapses all 5 into one word: pisteuō

Can We Find Our Way Back?

Absolutely, but only by returning to the apostolic pattern:
Faith alone in Christ alone for justification. Works as the fruit, never the definition, of faith.


Trust and obedience also have their exact words in the Greek and are not being used the way your presenting them, pisteuo is.
 
This is discipleship language, not justification language.
You have merged:
Faith (the means of receiving salvation) with discipleship (the life of following Christ)

What pisteuō Actually Means in the NT
The overwhelming majority of NT uses especially by John & Paul, mean:
To believe, to trust, to rely upon, to place confidence in.

This is exactly the confusion Paul fights in Galatians.

Paul repeatedly separates:
Faith for justification from Obedience as the fruit of justification.

Examples:
Rom 4:5, to him that worketh not, but believeth, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Gal 2:16, not justified by works… but by faith in Christ.”
Eph 2:8–9, not of works.
Phil 3:9, not having my own righteousness… but that which is through faith in Christ.
Faith produces obedience (Rom 1:5). Obedience flows from faith (16:26).

The OP takes Vine's descriptive comments & turns them into a prescriptive definition. That's not how lexicons work.
If you applied the OP'S definition consistently, you'd have to translate:
Jn 3:16, whoever surrenders daily
Jn 20:31, that you may surrender daily & have life
Acts 10:43, whoever surrenders daily receives remission of sins. That's not translation. That's theology being smuggled into the lexicon.

This is Works-Based Theology in Disguise
The posts says:

Saving faith is > daily surrender > sustained by confidence > decisions we make. That is ongoing performance.
If your salvation depends on:
Daily surrender, hourly surrender, decisions you make, conduct inspired by surrender

Then salvation is no longer a gift received by faith. It is a lifestyle maintained by effort. That is the very definition of works.

The Biblical Bedrock (Not presented in the OP). The NT consistently teaches:
Saving faith = trusting in Christ & His finished sacrificial sin atoning work.
Then:
Obedience, surrender & conduct = the fruit of salvation, not the definition of faith.

This keeps the categories clean:
Faith = Trust in Christ for salvation

Works = Evidence of salvation

Discipleship = Following Christ after salvation

Sanctification = Growth in obedience

Justification = Declared righteous by faith alone. This post collapses all 5 into one word: pisteuō

Can We Find Our Way Back?

Absolutely, but only by returning to the apostolic pattern:
Faith alone in Christ alone for justification. Works as the fruit, never the definition, of faith.


You do understand that i have to use the definitions of pisteuo, because the English doesn't have a word to translate pisteuo? All the words your presenting are not corresponding verbs to the noun Faith.
 
This is discipleship language, not justification language.
You have merged:
Faith (the means of receiving salvation) with discipleship (the life of following Christ)

What pisteuō Actually Means in the NT
The overwhelming majority of NT uses especially by John & Paul, mean:
To believe, to trust, to rely upon, to place confidence in.

This is exactly the confusion Paul fights in Galatians.

Paul repeatedly separates:
Faith for justification from Obedience as the fruit of justification.

Examples:
Rom 4:5, to him that worketh not, but believeth, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Gal 2:16, not justified by works… but by faith in Christ.”
Eph 2:8–9, not of works.
Phil 3:9, not having my own righteousness… but that which is through faith in Christ.
Faith produces obedience (Rom 1:5). Obedience flows from faith (16:26).

The OP takes Vine's descriptive comments & turns them into a prescriptive definition. That's not how lexicons work.
If you applied the OP'S definition consistently, you'd have to translate:
Jn 3:16, whoever surrenders daily
Jn 20:31, that you may surrender daily & have life
Acts 10:43, whoever surrenders daily receives remission of sins. That's not translation. That's theology being smuggled into the lexicon.

This is Works-Based Theology in Disguise
The posts says:

Saving faith is > daily surrender > sustained by confidence > decisions we make. That is ongoing performance.
If your salvation depends on:
Daily surrender, hourly surrender, decisions you make, conduct inspired by surrender

Then salvation is no longer a gift received by faith. It is a lifestyle maintained by effort. That is the very definition of works.

The Biblical Bedrock (Not presented in the OP). The NT consistently teaches:
Saving faith = trusting in Christ & His finished sacrificial sin atoning work.
Then:
Obedience, surrender & conduct = the fruit of salvation, not the definition of faith.

This keeps the categories clean:
Faith = Trust in Christ for salvation

Works = Evidence of salvation

Discipleship = Following Christ after salvation

Sanctification = Growth in obedience

Justification = Declared righteous by faith alone. This post collapses all 5 into one word: pisteuō

Can We Find Our Way Back?

Absolutely, but only by returning to the apostolic pattern:
Faith alone in Christ alone for justification. Works as the fruit, never the definition, of faith.


I'm not trying to beat you up over this. Anyone who is reading the scriptures in the English language, or writing anything in English about pisteuo, has to deal with pisteuo not having a word to correctly translate it. No corresponding verb to the noun faith like the Greek has.
 
Paul uses the word pisteuo just like they did in the 4 gospels knowing all well the definition communicated is 1) a firm conviction, 2) a personal surrender to Him, 3) a life inspired by such surrender.

The English word Believe is not in the Greek language. There's only pisteuo , moving towards something, God in our case. And Apisteuo , moving away from some thing, God in this case. The word believe is a mistranslation. Mistranslated in, and then mistranslated back out, stamped on the Greek. But don't tell anybody, they get very upset.

Works, discipleship, sanctification, justification, are all completely different words than pisteuo. You can do your own legwork.

As for "faith" your making the same mistake that got us into this mess, using Faith pistis the noun in place of the corresponding verb pisteuo. Pistis is used 245 times , pisteuo an additional 248 times. Please take time to read post 33 if your seeking knowledge on this.

Read post 33.

Your entire system collapses at one point: you redefine pisteuō into "daily surrender + obedience + lifestyle." Which means salvation is maintained by performance. Yet Paul explicitly says justification is "to him who does NOT work, but believes" (Rom 4:5).

If pisteuō includes ongoing surrender, then Paul is contradicting himself every time he contrasts believing with works. No lexicon defines pisteuō as "continuous surrender" & your claim that English lacks a verb for faith is historically false.

Tyndale didn’t mistranslate; he translated the word exactly as Greek lexicons define it:
BDAG: believe, trust, rely upon
Louw‑Nida: to believe to the extent of complete trust
Thayer: to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to place confidence in.

Not one lexicon defines pisteuō as "daily surrender" or "a life inspired by surrender." You're adding your own theological commentary, not his lexical definition.

You've merged justification, sanctification, discipleship & works into one verb, erasing the very distinctions Paul fights to preserve in Rom, Gal & Phil.

Until you can explain how your definition doesn't turn faith into works & doesn't make Paul's argument in Rom 4 impossible. Your position refutes itself.
 
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Your entire system collapses at one point: you redefine pisteuō into "daily surrender + obedience + lifestyle." Which means salvation is maintained by performance. Yet Paul explicitly says justification is "to him who does NOT work, but believes" (Rom 4:5).

If pisteuō includes ongoing surrender, then Paul is contradicting himself every time he contrasts believing with works. No lexicon defines pisteuō as "continuous surrender" & your claim that English lacks a verb for faith is historically false.

Tyndale didn’t mistranslate; he translated the word exactly as Greek lexicons define it:
BDAG: believe, trust, rely upon
Louw‑Nida: to believe to the extent of complete trust
Thayer: to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to place confidence in.

Not one lexicon defines pisteuō as "daily surrender" or "a life inspired by surrender." You're adding your own theological commentary, not his lexical definition.

You've merged justification, sanctification, discipleship & works into one verb, erasing the very distinctions Paul fights to preserve in Rom, Gal & Phil.

Until you can explain how your definition doesn't turn faith into works & doesn't make Paul's argument in Rom 4 impossible. Your position refutes itself.


Never once said obedience. one more of those and i'm out.
 
Your entire system collapses at one point: you redefine pisteuō into "daily surrender + obedience + lifestyle." Which means salvation is maintained by performance. Yet Paul explicitly says justification is "to him who does NOT work, but believes" (Rom 4:5).

If pisteuō includes ongoing surrender, then Paul is contradicting himself every time he contrasts believing with works. No lexicon defines pisteuō as "continuous surrender" & your claim that English lacks a verb for faith is historically false.

Tyndale didn’t mistranslate; he translated the word exactly as Greek lexicons define it:
BDAG: believe, trust, rely upon
Louw‑Nida: to believe to the extent of complete trust
Thayer: to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to place confidence in.

Not one lexicon defines pisteuō as "daily surrender" or "a life inspired by surrender." You're adding your own theological commentary, not his lexical definition.

You've merged justification, sanctification, discipleship & works into one verb, erasing the very distinctions Paul fights to preserve in Rom, Gal & Phil.

Until you can explain how your definition doesn't turn faith into works & doesn't make Paul's argument in Rom 4 impossible. Your position refutes itself.

So we can end this with you just not agreeing with the 3 elements of pisteuo defined in the Greek dictionary.
Thank you that saves a lot of grief.
 
Never once said obedience. one more of those and i'm out.

Your own definition explicitly includes obedience, even if you avoid the word.

You said:
“pisteuō is a personal surrender to Him > "a life inspired by such surrender" > "hundreds of daily decisions supporting the fact our lives are not ours anymore" > "continuously surrender their lives to Him and live a life that supports that surrender."

Those are all obedience‑category actions. You can call them "surrender," "movement," or "faithing," but they are still ongoing behavioral performance. Paul calls that works.

My point stands:
If your definition of pisteuō requires continuous surrender, lifestyle maintenance & daily decisions. Then you have turned faith into a performance system, which directly contradicts Paul's statement that justification is "to him who does NOT work, but believes" (Rom 4:5).

If you want to say you didn't use the word "obedience," that's fine. But the substance of what you describe is obedience & that is the issue you still haven't addressed.
 
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Your entire system collapses at one point: you redefine pisteuō into "daily surrender + obedience + lifestyle." Which means salvation is maintained by performance. Yet Paul explicitly says justification is "to him who does NOT work, but believes" (Rom 4:5).

If pisteuō includes ongoing surrender, then Paul is contradicting himself every time he contrasts believing with works. No lexicon defines pisteuō as "continuous surrender" & your claim that English lacks a verb for faith is historically false.

Tyndale didn’t mistranslate; he translated the word exactly as Greek lexicons define it:
BDAG: believe, trust, rely upon
Louw‑Nida: to believe to the extent of complete trust
Thayer: to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to place confidence in.

Not one lexicon defines pisteuō as "daily surrender" or "a life inspired by surrender." You're adding your own theological commentary, not his lexical definition.

You've merged justification, sanctification, discipleship & works into one verb, erasing the very distinctions Paul fights to preserve in Rom, Gal & Phil.

Until you can explain how your definition doesn't turn faith into works & doesn't make Paul's argument in Rom 4 impossible. Your position refutes itself.

Your doing what a lot of others do. And that's using the English language as the starting point, when it can only be the Greek language as the datum point.

I'll be happy if you've heard me out by reading post 33.

It a mess. Reminds me of when you go fishing and cast your line out, look down and your reel looks like a birds nest. Gods given me the discernment to bring it to the called out ones like yourself. Thats all I can do.
 
Your own definition explicitly includes obedience, even if you avoid the word.

You said:
“pisteuō is a personal surrender to Him > "a life inspired by such surrender" > "hundreds of daily decisions supporting the fact our lives are not ours anymore" > "continuously surrender their lives to Him and live a life that supports that surrender."

Those are all obedience‑category actions. You can call them "surrender," "movement," or "faithing," but they are still ongoing behavioral performance. Paul calls that works.

My point stands:
If your definition of pisteuō requires continuous surrender, lifestyle maintenance & daily decisions. Then you have turned faith into a performance system, which directly contradicts Paul's statement that justification is "to him who does NOT work, but believes" (Rom 4:5).

If you want to say you didn't use the word "obedience," that's fine. But the substance of what you describe is obedience & that is the issue you still haven't addressed.

Not obedience, a correct response to the call. Then a correct response to His presence. Then a correct response to His parable the sower testing ground. Then a correct response to His Holy spirit. Then a correct response to the mind of Christ. No obedience required. Jesus did that.
 
So we can end this with you just not agreeing with the 3 elements of pisteuo defined in the Greek dictionary.
Thank you that saves a lot of grief.

The issue isn't that I "don't agree" with the Greek dictionary. Tt’s that the three elements you listed aren't in any Greek dictionary.
BDAG doesn't list them, Louw‑Nida doesn't list them, Thayer doesn't list them. Even Vine's lexical entry doesn't list them.

You're treating commentary as definition.

If you can show a single lexicon that defines pisteuō as:
Personal surrender, sustained by confidence, a life inspired by surrender, then we can discuss it.

But until then, you're appealing to a "Greek dictionary" that doesn't exist.

My point remains:
Your definition turns faith into an ongoing performance system, which directly contradicts Paul's statement that justification is "to him who does NOT work, but believes" (Rom 4:5). That contradiction still stands unanswered.
 
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Your own definition explicitly includes obedience, even if you avoid the word.

You said:
“pisteuō is a personal surrender to Him > "a life inspired by such surrender" > "hundreds of daily decisions supporting the fact our lives are not ours anymore" > "continuously surrender their lives to Him and live a life that supports that surrender."

Those are all obedience‑category actions. You can call them "surrender," "movement," or "faithing," but they are still ongoing behavioral performance. Paul calls that works.

My point stands:
If your definition of pisteuō requires continuous surrender, lifestyle maintenance & daily decisions. Then you have turned faith into a performance system, which directly contradicts Paul's statement that justification is "to him who does NOT work, but believes" (Rom 4:5).

If you want to say you didn't use the word "obedience," that's fine. But the substance of what you describe is obedience & that is the issue you still haven't addressed.

Someone has been shadow banning me off my own threads. If I don't respond to you, it probably happened again. Try to PM me if that happens.
 
The issue isn't that I "don't agree" with the Greek dictionary. Tt’s that the three elements you listed aren't in any Greek dictionary.
BDAG doesn't list them, Louw‑Nida doesn't list them, Thayer doesn't list them. Even Vine's lexical entry doesn't list them.

You're treating commentary as definition.

If you can show a single lexicon that defines pisteuō as:
Personal surrender, sustained by confidence, a life inspired by surrender, then we can discuss it.

But until then, you're appealing to a "Greek dictionary" that doesn't exist.

My point remains:
Your definition turns faith into an ongoing performance system, which directly contradicts Paul's statement that justification is "to him who does NOT work, but believes" (Rom 4:5). That contradiction still stands unanswered.

Yes they are. VINES EXPOSITORY DICTIONARY OF NT WORDS. I have the text.
 
The issue isn't that I "don't agree" with the Greek dictionary. Tt’s that the three elements you listed aren't in any Greek dictionary.
BDAG doesn't list them, Louw‑Nida doesn't list them, Thayer doesn't list them. Even Vine's lexical entry doesn't list them.

You're treating commentary as definition.

If you can show a single lexicon that defines pisteuō as:
Personal surrender, sustained by confidence, a life inspired by surrender, then we can discuss it.

But until then, you're appealing to a "Greek dictionary" that doesn't exist.

My point remains:
Your definition turns faith into an ongoing performance system, which directly contradicts Paul's statement that justification is "to him who does NOT work, but believes" (Rom 4:5). That contradiction still stands unanswered.

It's in the Op.
 
Your doing what a lot of others do. And that's using the English language as the starting point, when it can only be the Greek language as the datum point.

I'll be happy if you've heard me out by reading post 33.

It a mess. Reminds me of when you go fishing and cast your line out, look down and your reel looks like a birds nest. Gods given me the discernment to bring it to the called out ones like yourself. Thats all I can do.

I'm not starting with English. I’m starting with the Greek lexicons themselves.
BDAG, Louw‑Nida, and Thayer all define pisteuō as believe, trust, rely upon. None of them list your three elements. Not one defines pisteuō as "daily surrender" or "a life inspired by surrender."

So the issue isn't English vs Greek. The issue is that your definition doesn't appear in any Greek dictionary

And that brings us back to the point you still haven't addressed:
If pisteuō includes ongoing surrender & lifestyle maintenance, then Paul contradicts himself in Rom 4:5 when he says justification is "to him who does NOT work, but believes."

Your definition makes "believes" a form of "works," which collapses Paul's argument.

You can reference post 33 again if you want, but unless you can show a lexicon that defines pisteuō the way you describe, or explain how your definition doesn't turn faith into works, the contradiction remains.
 
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It's in the Op.

You're using Vine's commentary, not a linguistic authority. Even Vine himself warns that his work is not a substitute for BDAG, Thayer, or Louw‑Nida.

And even in Vine, the lexical definition of pisteuō is simply: "to believe, to trust."

The "personal surrender" line you keep quoting is Vines theological application, not his lexical definition. You are treating commentary as if it were the dictionary entry itself.

So again:
BDAG does not list your three elements. Louw‑Nida does not list them. Thayer does not list them. Even Vine’s lexical entry does not list them.

Appealing to the OP or to Vine's commentary doesn't change the fact that no Greek lexicon defines pisteuō the way you claim.

And that brings us back to the point you still haven’t addressed:

If pisteuō includes ongoing surrender & lifestyle maintenance, then Paul contradicts himself in Rom 4:5 when he says justification is "to him who does NOT work, but believes." Your definition still turns faith into works & that contradiction still stands unanswered.
 
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This is what is said about faith in Matthew:

Matt. 8:10,13,26, 9:22, 29, 14:31, 15:28, 16:8, 13-18, 17:17, 20, 18:6, 21:21-22, 32, 22:37-40, 42, 24:10-14, 45, 26:13, 28:16-20.