The Vines Greek dictionaries definition of saving faith.

[Watchman22]

So, based on your eisegesis involving the Vines definition, you're ultimate goal culminates in trying to "shoehorn" works into the definition of believe/faith.

No, I'm not trying to shoehorn works into pisteuo, work and effort have always been apart of it. 95% courage,4% endurance, 1% everything else. This is separate from the finished work of Christ. Nothing needs to be, or can be added to the work of Christ, that's Grace, unmerited favor. Faith or specifically the verb pisteuo is the correct response to that Grace and His finished work.

It's all because of the bad translation. When they chose the word believe, people double and triple down on it saying, any work or effort associated with saving faith is trying to add something to Grace, it's not.

Here's why.
The English language tends to limit faith and faithing (pistis and pisteuo) to the mind, to the emotions, and confidence or trust. And it leaves the "will" to another word which is "obedience". The English translations of pisteuo thus sets free faith from works. The Greek didn't allow that. You didn't have pistis or pisteuo until you added the "will" and hung the body in continuing action on what the mind believed and the heart had confidence in. It's an expression of the whole man.

 

[Watchman22]

You seem to be heavily focused on actions which "follow" faith and try to include those actions into the definition of believe/faith. Roman Catholics make the same error. A Roman Catholic once posted this to me on a Christian forum:

We are saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is not simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being water baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments etc..

Roman Catholics would refer to accomplishing these works above as a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. Is that where you are going with this as well?

I went in to our local catholic church to speak with the priest bout something. I decided to ask him about pisteuo to get his thoughts. He had no idea what i was talking about. The Protestants and Catholics are in the same boat on this one.

 

[mailmandan]

No, I'm not trying to shoehorn works into pisteuo, work and effort have always been apart of it. 95% courage,4% endurance, 1% everything else. This is separate from the finished work of Christ. Nothing needs to be, or can be added to the work of Christ, that's Grace, unmerited favor. Faith or specifically the verb pisteuo is the correct response to that Grace and His finished work.

It's all because of the bad translation. When they chose the word believe, people double and triple down on it saying, any work or effort associated with saving faith is trying to add something to Grace, it's not.

Here's why.
The English language tends to limit faith and faithing (pistis and pisteuo) to the mind, to the emotions, and confidence or trust. And it leaves the "will" to another word which is "obedience". The English translations of pisteuo thus sets free faith from works. The Greek didn't allow that. You didn't have pistis or pisteuo until you added the "will" and hung the body in continuing action on what the mind believed and the heart had confidence in. It's an expression of the whole man.

We need to understand the difference between what believe/faith actually is and what believe/faith results in. Genuine belief/faith result in actions/works appropriate to the belief/faith but the actions/works are not inherent in the belief/faith.

 

[mailmandan]

I went in to our local catholic church to speak with the priest bout something. I decided to ask him about pisteuo to get his thoughts. He had no idea what i was talking about. The Protestants and Catholics are in the same boat on this one.

Not in the same boat at all.

 

[Watchman22]

We need to understand the difference between what believe/faith actually is and what believe/faith results in. Genuine belief/faith result in actions/works appropriate to the belief/faith but the actions/works are not inherent in the belief/faith.

Thats not going to work. Your making the same mistake.
Your not acknowledging the correct definition of pisteuo. It can only be one of 3 possibilities, as stated in the Vines.

1) a firm conviction.
2) a personal surrender to Him.
3) a life inspired by such surrender.

These are the only correct definitions according to the context. Get the words belief, believing, believer, out of your vocabulary.

This is the only place the word belief or believing has in the conversation .
Pisteuo, being a verb, is an act, based upon a "belief" , sustained by confidence.

1) the act, is a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.
2) based upon a "belief," that God will accept the surrendered life. ( your use of belief and believing is on Gods word, mine is on God Himself first. After the spirit of Christ is put in us, then, Gods word can be apart of our faith life. But it can't begin it, His word is not ours yet. Rom. 8:9.)
3) sustained by confidence, which means all the daily decisions we make everyday support the fact our lives are not ours anymore, but His now.

 

[Watchman22]

Not in the same boat at all.

The boat is their both Protestants and Catholics teaching the word "believe " is a legit understanding when it's not.

So the Catholics recognize there is work and effort involved. It's still wrong.

 

[mailmandan]

Thats not going to work. Your making the same mistake.
Your not acknowledging the correct definition of pisteuo. It can only be one of 3 possibilities, as stated in the Vines.

1) a firm conviction.
2) a personal surrender to Him.
3) a life inspired by such surrender.

These are the only correct definitions according to the context. Get the words belief, believing, believer, out of your vocabulary.

This is the only place the word belief or believing has in the conversation .
Pisteuo, being a verb, is an act, based upon a "belief" , sustained by confidence.

1) the act, is a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.
2) based upon a "belief," that God will accept the surrendered life. ( your use of belief and believing is on Gods word, mine is on God Himself first. After the spirit of Christ is put in us, then, Gods word can be apart of our faith life. But it can't begin it, His word is not ours yet. Rom. 8:9.)
3) sustained by confidence, which means all the daily decisions we make everyday support the fact our lives are not ours anymore, but His now.

Your biased definition of pisteuo filtered through your eisegesis results in conflating faith and works and justification with sanctification.

 

[mailmandan]

The boat is their both Protestants and Catholics teaching the word "believe " is a legit understanding when it's not.

So the Catholics recognize there is work and effort involved. It's still wrong.

So, everyone is wrong except for you?

 

[Watchman22]

So, everyone is wrong except for you?

Mt. 7:13-14,

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in there at: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

It's talking about the called out ones. The small group called out from among a larger group that are not called.

Only a few of that small group that the Father calls out will find it.

Building an understanding on the word believe is the wide gate. Thats where almost everyone is.

 

[mailmandan]

Mt. 7:13-14,

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in there at: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

It's talking about the called out ones. The small group called out from among a larger group that are not called.

Only a few of that small group that the Father calls out will find it.

Building an understanding on the word believe is the wide gate. Thats where almost everyone is.

So, according to you, only you have the proper understanding of the word believe which is the strait but the rest of us have a wrong understanding of the word believe which is the wide gate?

 

[Watchman22]

So, according to you, only you have the proper understanding of the word believe which is the strait but the rest of us have a wrong understanding of the word believe which is the wide gate?

I'm just shining light on a stumbling block.
I don't make those kinds of judgements, how do I know what's going on in people's hearts? Understandings can give us a glimpse, only God knows if there's a relationship with us. I think it's possible to surrender ones life daily, without knowing the correct definition. It happened to me.

As for the correct understanding of the word believe, there is no correct understanding of the word believe. It only exists in the English language. The Greek doesn't have a word for believe in their language. It was mistranslated into the English, and stamped back out and mistranslated onto the Greek.

There's only pisteuo, moving towards something, or Apisteuo, moving away from something. No neutral ground where one is only believing.

 

[mailmandan]

On a different Christian forum, here is an example of someone trying to "shoehorn" works into "believe" - Pisteuo.

NT belief includes repentance (Lk 13:3) confession (Mt 10:32-33) and baptism (Mk 16:16).

Repentance actually "precedes" belief/faith. (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21) Confession is a confirmation of belief/faith. (Romans 10:8-10) Water baptism "follows" salvation through belief/faith. (Acts 8:36-38; 10:43-47)

 

[Watchman22]

On a different Christian forum, here is an example of someone trying to "shoehorn" works into "believe" - Pisteuo.

NT belief includes repentance (Lk 13:3) confession (Mt 10:32-33) and baptism (Mk 16:16).

Repentance actually "precedes" belief/faith. (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21) Confession is a confirmation of belief/faith. (Romans 10:8-10) Water baptism "follows" salvation through belief/faith. (Acts 8:36-38; 10:43-47)

in case you are reading my posts, here's trying to shoehorn some truth back into Christianity.

It's been approximately 500 years since William Tindale realized he couldn't translate the most important word in the Greek texts into the English language.

What is the most important word in the NT?
It's the Greek word "pisteuo."
I'm aware of the word "Grace", but Grace avails nothing if pisteuo isn't fulfilled correctly.

Why couldn't Tindale correctly translate "pisteuo" into the English language?

It's because the English language has no word to translate pisteuo. The English language has no corresponding verb to the noun "Faith" like the Greek does.

What is the Greek word pisteuo?

"Pisteuo" is the corresponding verb to the noun "pistis". The Greek word "pistis" is where we get our English word "Faith".

Where is the corresponding verb to the noun "Faith" in the English language?

There is none! The words the English language should have had for Tindale and the other translators are "faithe", "faither", and "faithing". But those words are not in the English language and weren't available for Tindale and the others translators.

So what did William Tindale do?

Tindale had to make a choice, stop his translation into the English language, or choose a different word. He decided to use the words "believe", "believer", and "believing", 248 times.
Gods word specifically warns against anyone adding or subtracting from the primary texts. Even if done unintentionally, in my opinion he has laid the foundation for the wide path Jesus warns us about. Here we are, 500 years later, and most called out ones are standing on the mistranslated words "believe", "believer", and "believing". Thinking, if i simply "believe " in what Jesus said, did, and promised, I will immediately receive the Grace deposit or Holy Spirit. That's not the correct response to the call of the Father required to start, maintain, and complete the salvation journey here on earth.

Here are some facts about the mistranslated words believe, believer, and believing.
1) These words are not in the Greek language. Our teachers, churches, Bible colleges, and internet claim that if i look up the word "believe" in the Greek, it means "pisteuo". Pisteuo was mistranslated into the English, and then stamped back out onto the Greek. The Greek does not acknowledge a state of being where one is only " believing" in something. In the Greek, we are either moving towards something, "pisteuo", or the reverse action, moving away from something, "Apisteuo". No neutral or middle ground in the Greek

2) The mistranslated words believe, believing, and believer change the "object of faith" from a one on one personal relationship with God, a real living person, to what He did, said, and promised. Gods word cannot be the object of faith, it must be the living person.

3) Pisteuo is a verb, an action word that encompasses 3 parts. A specific act (the personal surrender to Him) based upon a belief (that he will accept the surrendered life) sustained by confidence (by making all the 100s of daily decisions supporting the fact our lives are not ours anymore, but His now.) "Believing " is only one of the 3, taken on its own is error.

4) Believe, believer, and believing are corresponding verbs to the noun "belief", not the noun "faith".

5) The definition of "believe " is "an opinion held in good faith without the necessary reference to its proof."

6) The Strongs gives the disclaimer "pisteuo means not just to believe. The Vines definition of pisteuo, "A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. " This is not a one time surrender, it's surrendering every day, all day if necessary, making a better one each day. This is the perfecting process. Saints are not people who are perfect, Saints are candidates for perfection. God is not looking a perfect surrendered life, simply a genuine one.

7) God sees us from A to Z, "A" being what He wants first. (And that's someone who will continuously surrender their lives to Him, and live a life that supports that surrender. )
We see God from Z to A, "Z" being what we want first. ( And that's His Grace deposit and His promises. )

Salvation is by Grace "through faith," (faithing) through a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.

 

[mailmandan]

in case you are reading my posts, here's trying to shoehorn some truth back into Christianity.

It's been approximately 500 years since William Tindale realized he couldn't translate the most important word in the Greek texts into the English language.

What is the most important word in the NT?
It's the Greek word "pisteuo."
I'm aware of the word "Grace", but Grace avails nothing if pisteuo isn't fulfilled correctly.

Why couldn't Tindale correctly translate "pisteuo" into the English language?

It's because the English language has no word to translate pisteuo. The English language has no corresponding verb to the noun "Faith" like the Greek does.

What is the Greek word pisteuo?

"Pisteuo" is the corresponding verb to the noun "pistis". The Greek word "pistis" is where we get our English word "Faith".

Where is the corresponding verb to the noun "Faith" in the English language?

There is none! The words the English language should have had for Tindale and the other translators are "faithe", "faither", and "faithing". But those words are not in the English language and weren't available for Tindale and the others translators.

So what did William Tindale do?

Tindale had to make a choice, stop his translation into the English language, or choose a different word. He decided to use the words "believe", "believer", and "believing", 248 times.
Gods word specifically warns against anyone adding or subtracting from the primary texts. Even if done unintentionally, in my opinion he has laid the foundation for the wide path Jesus warns us about. Here we are, 500 years later, and most called out ones are standing on the mistranslated words "believe", "believer", and "believing". Thinking, if i simply "believe " in what Jesus said, did, and promised, I will immediately receive the Grace deposit or Holy Spirit. That's not the correct response to the call of the Father required to start, maintain, and complete the salvation journey here on earth.

Here are some facts about the mistranslated words believe, believer, and believing.
1) These words are not in the Greek language. Our teachers, churches, Bible colleges, and internet claim that if i look up the word "believe" in the Greek, it means "pisteuo". Pisteuo was mistranslated into the English, and then stamped back out onto the Greek. The Greek does not acknowledge a state of being where one is only " believing" in something. In the Greek, we are either moving towards something, "pisteuo", or the reverse action, moving away from something, "Apisteuo". No neutral or middle ground in the Greek

2) The mistranslated words believe, believing, and believer change the "object of faith" from a one on one personal relationship with God, a real living person, to what He did, said, and promised. Gods word cannot be the object of faith, it must be the living person.

3) Pisteuo is a verb, an action word that encompasses 3 parts. A specific act (the personal surrender to Him) based upon a belief (that he will accept the surrendered life) sustained by confidence (by making all the 100s of daily decisions supporting the fact our lives are not ours anymore, but His now.) "Believing " is only one of the 3, taken on its own is error.

4) Believe, believer, and believing are corresponding verbs to the noun "belief", not the noun "faith".

5) The definition of "believe " is "an opinion held in good faith without the necessary reference to its proof."

6) The Strongs gives the disclaimer "pisteuo means not just to believe. The Vines definition of pisteuo, "A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. " This is not a one time surrender, it's surrendering every day, all day if necessary, making a better one each day. This is the perfecting process. Saints are not people who are perfect, Saints are candidates for perfection. God is not looking a perfect surrendered life, simply a genuine one.

7) God sees us from A to Z, "A" being what He wants first. (And that's someone who will continuously surrender their lives to Him, and live a life that supports that surrender. )
We see God from Z to A, "Z" being what we want first. ( And that's His Grace deposit and His promises. )

Salvation is by Grace "through faith," (faithing) through a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.

Our personal surrender to Him begins the very moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Acts 26:18) A life inspired by such surrender, is the fruit of salvation (works) but not the root of it. So, salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) To believe anything else is to miss salvation.

 

[Watchman22]

What were really talking about is sound doctrine. The word "doctrine" has two primary uses in the Greek. 1) Didaskalia, 1319 and Didache 1322. Both have one meaning, "Instruction".

So what instruction is God showing, and giving us? There's one word that shows us and gives us "instruction."

Faith ( pistis ) and it's corresponding verb ( pisteuo ). Pisteuo is defined as 1) a firm conviction, 2) a personal surrender to Him. 3) a life inspired by such surrender.

This word pisteuo, and one of those 3 definitions are used 248 times in the NT. When God repeats Himself pay extra attention.

So what has God shown us that gives us a glimpse of His instruction?
1) God gave His Son. pretty good example of what god expects from Himself and maybe us as well.
2) His Son gave His life. Another great example of Gods way and how He is showing us by example what He expects from us.
3) Pisteuo in His Word. The word pisteuo is how God chose to communicate what He expects as a response to what He and His Son have done by example. 1) a firm conviction, 2) a personal surrender to Him. 3) a life inspired by such surrender. Repeated 248 times for us knuckleheads.

Pisteuo communicates perfectly Gods ways and "sound doctrine" to the called out ones. Everything in Gods word is either done by, in, or through Faith and applied faithing, the word the English language should have had to translate pisteuo instead of the word Believe.

Sound doctrine "is" a continually surrendered life, something we give just like the Father and the Son gave.

We all have heard the warnings concerning sound doctrine. That the called out ones will nolonger endure "NT instruction."
1) 2 Tim. 4:3-4
2) Titus 2:1
3) 1 Tim. 6:3-5

Is there anyone here who will at least acknowledge this sound doctrine or instruction?

 

[Watchman22]

Our personal surrender to Him begins the very moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Acts 26:18) A life inspired by such surrender, is the fruit of salvation (works) but not the root of it. So, salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) To believe anything else is to miss salvation.

Thats also were your mistaken mailman. True faith and faithing is an act, based upon a belief, sustained by confidence. My understanding covers belief, so i would be just fine in your understanding. its you who are missing the other two required parts to recieve salvation.
Me, Adding my dead , worthless, but mandatory work and effort to faith will not make my belief any less valid. But not fulfilling them would.

 

[mailmandan]

Thats also were your mistaken mailman. True faith and faithing is an act, based upon a belief, sustained by confidence. My understanding covers belief, so i would be just fine in your understanding. its you who are missing the other two required parts to recieve salvation.
Me, Adding my dead , worthless, but mandatory work and effort to faith will not make my belief any less valid. But not fulfilling them would.

Your other two parts narrative culminates in salvation by works.

 

[FlyingDove]

Pisteuo, or saving faith is a verb, an action word. It's an act, based upon a belief, sustained by confidence.
1) the act, is a personal surrendering of our lives to Him, daily, hourly if need be.

This should be the bedrock understanding of what true saving faith is.

Can we find our way back to it?

This is discipleship language, not justification language.
You have merged:
Faith (the means of receiving salvation) with discipleship (the life of following Christ)

What pisteuō Actually Means in the NT
The overwhelming majority of NT uses especially by John & Paul, mean:
To believe, to trust, to rely upon, to place confidence in.

This is exactly the confusion Paul fights in Galatians.

Paul repeatedly separates:
Faith for justification from Obedience as the fruit of justification.

Examples:
Rom 4:5, to him that worketh not, but believeth, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Gal 2:16, not justified by works… but by faith in Christ.”
Eph 2:8–9, not of works.
Phil 3:9, not having my own righteousness… but that which is through faith in Christ.
Faith produces obedience (Rom 1:5). Obedience flows from faith (16:26).

The OP takes Vine's descriptive comments & turns them into a prescriptive definition. That's not how lexicons work.
If you applied the OP'S definition consistently, you'd have to translate:
Jn 3:16, whoever surrenders daily
Jn 20:31, that you may surrender daily & have life
Acts 10:43, whoever surrenders daily receives remission of sins. That's not translation. That's theology being smuggled into the lexicon.

This is Works-Based Theology in Disguise
The posts says:

Saving faith is > daily surrender > sustained by confidence > decisions we make. That is ongoing performance.
If your salvation depends on:
Daily surrender, hourly surrender, decisions you make, conduct inspired by surrender

Then salvation is no longer a gift received by faith. It is a lifestyle maintained by effort. That is the very definition of works.

The Biblical Bedrock (Not presented in the OP). The NT consistently teaches:
Saving faith = trusting in Christ & His finished sacrificial sin atoning work.
Then:
Obedience, surrender & conduct = the fruit of salvation, not the definition of faith.

This keeps the categories clean:
Faith = Trust in Christ for salvation

Works = Evidence of salvation

Discipleship = Following Christ after salvation

Sanctification = Growth in obedience

Justification = Declared righteous by faith alone. This post collapses all 5 into one word: pisteuō

Can We Find Our Way Back?

Absolutely, but only by returning to the apostolic pattern:
Faith alone in Christ alone for justification. Works as the fruit, never the definition, of faith.

 

[Watchman22]

Your other two parts narrative culminates in salvation by works.

Gal. 6:14 ?
I don't remember saying "boasting or glorying" is apart of pisteuo or saving faith.

There not my other two parts of pisteuo, there the Vines Greek dictionaries other two parts. Right above where Vines elaborates on how Belief is not a correct application.

 

[Watchman22]

This is discipleship language, not justification language.
You have merged:
faith (the means of receiving salvation) with discipleship (the life of following Christ)

What pisteuō Actually Means in the NT
The overwhelming majority of NT uses especially by John & Paul, mean:
To believe, to trust, to rely upon, to place confidence in.

This is exactly the confusion Paul fights in Galatians.

Paul repeatedly separates:
Faith for justification from Obedience as the fruit of justification.

Examples:
Rom 4:5, to him that worketh not, but believeth, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Gal 2:16, not justified by works… but by faith in Christ.”
Eph 2:8–9, not of works.
Phil 3:9, not having my own righteousness… but that which is through faith in Christ.
Faith produces obedience (Rom 1:5). Obedience flows from faith (16:26).

The OP takes Vine's descriptive comments & turns them into a prescriptive definition. That's not how lexicons work.
If you applied the OP'S definition consistently, you'd have to translate:
Jn 3:16, whoever surrenders daily
Jn 20:31, that you may surrender daily & have life
Acts 10:43, whoever surrenders daily receives remission of sins. That's not translation. That's theology being smuggled into the lexicon.

This Is Works-Based Theology in Disguise
The posts says:

Saving faith is > daily surrender > sustained by confidence > decisions we make. That is ongoing performance.
If your salvation depends on:
Daily surrender, hourly surrender, decisions you make, conduct inspired by surrender

Then salvation is no longer a gift received by faith. It is a lifestyle maintained by effort. That is the very definition of works.

The Biblical Bedrock (Not presented in the OP). The NT consistently teaches:
Saving faith = trusting in Christ & His finished sacrificial sin atoning work.
Then:
Obedience, surrender & conduct = the fruit of salvation, not the definition of faith.

This keeps the categories clean:
Faith = Trust in Christ for salvation

Works = Evidence of salvation

Discipleship = Following Christ after salvation

Sanctification = Growth in obedience

Justification = Declared righteous by faith alone. This post collapses all 5 into one word: pisteuō

Can We Find Our Way Back?

Absolutely, but only by returning to the apostolic pattern:
Faith alone in Christ alone for justification. Works as the fruit, never the definition, of faith.

Paul uses the word pisteuo just like they did in the 4 gospels knowing all well the definition communicated is 1) a firm conviction, 2) a personal surrender to Him, 3) a life inspired by such surrender.

The English word Believe is not in the Greek language. There's only pisteuo , moving towards something, God in our case. And Apisteuo , moving away from some thing, God in this case. The word believe is a mistranslation. Mistranslated in, and then mistranslated back out, stamped on the Greek. But don't tell anybody, they get very upset.

Works, discipleship, sanctification, justification, are all completely different words than pisteuo. You can do your own legwork.

As for "faith" your making the same mistake that got us into this mess, using Faith pistis the noun in place of the corresponding verb pisteuo. Pistis is used 245 times , pisteuo an additional 248 times. Please take time to read post 33 if your seeking knowledge on this.

Read post 33.