The Vines Greek dictionaries definition of saving faith.

[Watchman22]

In the NT, there is a word that precisely defines what saving faith is. That word is "pisteuo".
Pisteuo is used 248 times in the NT.

Here is the Vines definition, word for word.

"The main elements in faith in its relation to the invisible God, as distinct from "faith" in man, are especially brought out in the use of this noun and the corresponding verb, pisteuo; they are (1) a firm conviction, producing a full acknowledgement of God's revelation or truth, e.g., 2 Thessalonians 2:11,12; (2) a personal surrender to Him, John 1:12; (3) a conduct inspired by such surrender, 2 Corinthians 5:7 . Prominence is given to one or other of these elements according to the context. All this stands in contrast to belief in its purely natural exercise, which consists of an opinion held in good "faith" without necessary reference to its proof. The object of Abraham's "faith" was not God's promise (that was the occasion of its exercise); his "faith" rested on God Himself."

Notice is states, that prominence is given to one or the other of these 3 elements according to the context.
What that means is that the 248 times pisteuo (or saving faith) is communicated in the NT, it's one of those 3 definitions.

It's not believe, believer, believing, trust, obedience. Although these words can be a part of the whole definition, but if their taken as the whole definition, it is error, and creates false paths.

You can also notice, that the Vines translators new that because they chose the word "believe" to communicate pisteuo (or saving faith), because the English language has no corresponding verb to the noun Faith, they put a disclaimer in with this definition.

It states,
"All this stands in contrast to belief in its purely natural exercise, which consists of an opinion held in good "faith" without necessary reference to its proof. The object of Abraham's "faith" was not God's promise (that was the occasion of its exercise); his "faith" rested on God Himself."

So in conclusion,
Is it possible to undo the damage that the mistranslated words believe, believer, and believing have caused.?

Or are we slowly creeping toward a fulfillment of 2 Tim. 4:3-4?

Sound doctrine is defined as 1) a firm conviction that produces a full acknowledgement of God revelation or truth. 2) a personal surrender to Him. 3) a life inspired by such surrender.

The object of faith has to be God Himself. Thats the personal relationship.

Pisteuo, or saving faith is a verb, an action word. It's an act, based upon a belief, sustained by confidence.
1) the act, is a personal surrendering of our lives to Him, daily, hourly if need be.
2) based upon a belief, that God will accept the surrendered life.
3) sustained by confidence, that all the many daily decisions we make are supporting the fact we understand our lives are not ours anymore, but His now.

This should be the bedrock understanding of what true saving faith is.

Can we find our way back to it?

 

[studentoftheword]

This is what strong's Concordance says about----- Pistis

KJV: assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity
NASB: faith, faithfulness, pledge, proof

1. persuasion, i.e. credence
2. (morally) conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher)
3. (especially) reliance upon Christ for salvation
4. (abstractly) constancy in such profession
5. (by extension) the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself

HELPS Word-studies
4102 pístis (from 3982/peithô, "persuade, be persuaded") – properly, persuasion (be persuaded, come to trust); faith.

Faith (4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people. In short, 4102/pistis ("faith") for the believer is "God's divine persuasion" – and therefore distinct from human belief (confidence), yet involving it. The Lord continuously births faith in the yielded believer so they can know what He prefers, i.e. the persuasion of His will (1 Jn 5:4).

[4102 (pistis) in secular antiquity referred to a guarantee (warranty). In Scripture, faith is God's warranty, certifying that the revelation He inbirthed will come to pass (His way).

Faith (4102/pistis) is also used collectively – of all the times God has revealed (given the persuasion of) His will, which includes the full revelation of Scripture (Jude 3). Indeed, God the Lord guarantees that all of this revelation will come to pass! Compare Mt 5:18 with 2 Tim 3:16.]

1. The root of 4102/pistis ("faith") is 3982/peithô ("to persuade, be persuaded") which supplies the core-meaning of faith ("divine persuasion"). It is God's warranty that guarantees the fulfillment of the revelation He births within the receptive believer (cf. 1 Jn 5:4 with Heb 11:1).

Faith (4102/pistis) is always received from God, and never generated by us.

Ro 12:3: "For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith (4102/pistis)" (NASU).

Eph 2:8,9: " For by grace you have been saved through faith (4102/pistis); and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast" (NASU).

Gal 5:22,23: "22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace,

patience, kindness, goodness, faith (4102/pistis), 23gentleness,

self-control; against such things there is no law."

2 Thes 1:11: "To this end (glorification) – indeed each time we pray about (peri) you for the purpose (hin) of our God counting you worthy of the call – even that He may fulfill (His) every good-pleasure that comes from (His) goodness and work of faith, in (His) ability."

Reflection: Faith is only (exclusively) given to the redeemed. It is not a virtue that can be worked up by human effort.

2. Faith (4102/pistis) enables the believer to know God's preferred-will (cf. J. Calvin; see 2307/thelçma). Accordingly, faith (4102/pistis) and "God's preferred-will (2307/thelçma)" are directly connected in Scripture.

2 Ro 12:2,3: " And do not be conformed to this world, but betransformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will (2307/thelçma) of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. 3For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith (4102/pistis)" (NASU).

5 2 Cor 8:5,7: " And this, not as we had expected, but they first

gave themselves to the Lord and to us by the will (2307/thelçma) of

God" (NASU).

7" But just as you abound in everything, in faith (4102/pistis)

and utterance and knowledge and in all earnestness and in the love

we inspired in you, see that you abound in this gracious work also"

(NASU).

Heb 10:36,38: "36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will (2307/thelçma) of God, you may receive what was promised" (NASU).

" BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH(4102/pistis); AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM" (NASU).

1 Jn 5:4: "For whatever is born of God conquers the world;

and this is the conquest that has conquered the world – our faith

(4102/pistis)."

3. In sum, faith (4102/pistis) is a persuasion from God that we receive as He grants impulse ("divine spark"; cf. the Heb hiphil form of believe, *mn, in a later discussion). Faith is always the work of God and involves hearing His voice – whereby the believer lays hold of His preferred-will (cf. J. Calvin).

1 Hab 2:1: " I will stand on my guard post And station myself on the rampart;

And I will keep watch to see what He will speak in (Heb b ) me" (NASU).

Hab 2:4: "Behold, as for the proud one,

His soul is not right within him;

But the righteous will live in his faith" (= 4102/pistis, "faith from the Lord").

 

[studentoftheword]

Continued from Strongs about Faith

More on what faith is . . . and isn't

1. In Scripture, faith and belief are not exactly the same. Faith always comes from God and involves His revelation therefore faith is beyond belief!
   
2. Faith is God's work; faith is never the work of people. We cannot produce faith ourselves, nor can we "drum it up at will." Rather, faith comes as Christ speaks His rhçma-word within (see Ro 10:17, Gk text).
   
3. In all of Scripture, only the term faith is ever used in the following way: Ro 14:23: Whatever is not of faith (4102/pistis) is sin." Heb 11:6: "And without faith (4102/pistis) it is impossible to
   

please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him" (NASU).
Reflection: Nothing quite like this two-fold witness appears elsewhere in the Bible. These sweeping statements sober the heart and inspire the soul!
The Lord offers to inbirth faith in each scene of life – so that each matters equally in eternity . . . no matter how insignificant they seem (Lk 16:10 with Lk 17:6 and 2 Pet 1:2).

Key quotes
"Faith always pre-supposes revelation" (W. H. Griffith Thomas, Genesis, 55). "Faith is always a response to a divine revelation" (W. H. Griffith Thomas, Hebrews, 143). "Faith . . . both in its initiation and every step of the way, is Spirit given . . . faith is God given" (W. Hendriksen, Galatians, 197). "Faith precedes works, and is not something merely deduced by
reason of existing" (D. Edmond Hiebert, Thessalonians, 2 Thes 1:11). "Faith is always a gift of God" (L. Morris, John, p 520). "The basis of faith is God's revelation of Himself . . . Christianity came
to be seen as a faith event" (O. Michel, Dictionary of New Testament Theology).
"Faith is the divine response, wrought in man, by God" (from Berkof's Systematic Theology, representing the views of Barth and Brunner).

"Faith always has the element of assurance, certainty and confidence . . . and evidential value substantiating the thing we hope for . . . with faith, there is no strain or tension; rather, it has the element of assurance and confidence in it . . . if there is strain or tension . . . trying to persuade yourself to keep from doubting, you can be quite sure that it is not faith . . . faith is not the law of mathematical probability, . . . faith is not natural . . .faith is spiritual, the gift of God . . . you cannot command faith at will, faith is always something that is given-inwrought by God; . . . therefore, if you want to be a man of faith, it will always be the result of becoming a certain type of person" (M. Lloyd Jones, Romans, Ro 4:18-25).

"Faith is the divinely given conviction of things unseen" (Homer Kent Jr., Hebrews, 217, quoting Theological Dictionary of the NT vol 2, 476).
"Faith is the organ which enables people to see the invisible order" (F.
F. Bruce, Hebrews, 279).

"Faith is knowing what is His will toward us; therefore, we hold faith to be the knowledge of God's will toward us" (John Calvin, as quoted by R. McAfee Brown in Is Faith Obsolete?).
"Right faith is a thing wrought in us by the Holy Spirit" (Wm. Tyndale).
"We have made faith a condition of mind, when it is a divinely imparted grace of the heart . . . we can receive faith only as he gives it . . . you cannot manufacture faith, you can not work it up . . . you can believe a promise, and at the same time not have the faith to appropriate it . . . genuine, Scriptural faith is not our ability to ‘count it done,’ but is the deep consciousness divinely imparted to the heart of man that it is done, . . . it is the faith that only God can give . . . do not struggle in the power of the will . . . what a mistake to take our belief in God and call of faith . . . Christ, the living word, is our sufficiency . . . (Charles Price, The Real Faith, Logos/publications).

Note: On the distinction between believing (belief), and faith in the Scriptures see Js 2:19; Jn 10:38; Ac 8:13, 26:27,28; Ro 14:2; 2 Thes 2:11; 1 Jn 4:1; also Jn 2:23, 7:31, 12:42 and 4102/pisteuô ("believe").
As in the Gospels, a person's believing (belief) is vital (cf. Heb 11:6). But a personal encounter with Christ (a true connection with Him and His Word) is always necessary for believing ("man's responsibility") to be transformed into faith (which is always and only God's word). See also Mt 8:10,13, 9:22,28,29, 15:28; Ac 20:21; Ro 9:32; Gal 3:9,22.

Summary
Belief and faith are not exactly equivalent terms. When Jesus told people, "Your faith has made you well," faith was still His gift (Eph 2:8,9). Any gift however, once received, becomes the "possession" of the recipient. Faith however is always from God and is purely His work (2 Thes 1:11).
Note: The Greek definite article is uniformly used in the expressions "your faith," "their faith" (which occur over 30 times in the Greek NT). This genitive construction with the article refers to "the principle of faith (operating in) you" – not "your faith" in the sense that faith is ever generated by the recipient.
[The meaning of the definite article in this construction is "the principle of faith at work in you," "the operating-principle of faith in them," etc. For examples see: Mt 9:2,22,29; Lk 17:19; Phil 2:17; 2 Pet 1:5, etc.]

Faith (4102/pistis) involves belief but it goes beyond human believing because it involves the personal revelation (inworking) of God. Faith is always God's work. Our believing has eternal meaning when it becomes "faith-believing" by the transforming grace of God.
Reflection: Demons believe (and shudder) . . . but they do not have (experience) faith!
Js 2:19: "You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder" (NASU

 

[NightTwister]

AGAIN?? Is this going to be a new thread daily from you?

 

[Watchman22]

Continued from Strongs about Faith

More on what faith is . . . and isn't

1. In Scripture, faith and belief are not exactly the same. Faith always comes from God and involves His revelation therefore faith is beyond belief!
2. Faith is God's work; faith is never the work of people. We cannot produce faith ourselves, nor can we "drum it up at will." Rather, faith comes as Christ speaks His rhçma-word within (see Ro 10:17, Gk text).
3. In all of Scripture, only the term faith is ever used in the following way: Ro 14:23: Whatever is not of faith (4102/pistis) is sin." Heb 11:6: "And without faith (4102/pistis) it is impossible to

please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him" (NASU).
Reflection: Nothing quite like this two-fold witness appears elsewhere in the Bible. These sweeping statements sober the heart and inspire the soul!
The Lord offers to inbirth faith in each scene of life – so that each matters equally in eternity . . . no matter how insignificant they seem (Lk 16:10 with Lk 17:6 and 2 Pet 1:2).

Key quotes
"Faith always pre-supposes revelation" (W. H. Griffith Thomas, Genesis, 55). "Faith is always a response to a divine revelation" (W. H. Griffith Thomas, Hebrews, 143). "Faith . . . both in its initiation and every step of the way, is Spirit given . . . faith is God given" (W. Hendriksen, Galatians, 197). "Faith precedes works, and is not something merely deduced by
reason of existing" (D. Edmond Hiebert, Thessalonians, 2 Thes 1:11). "Faith is always a gift of God" (L. Morris, John, p 520). "The basis of faith is God's revelation of Himself . . . Christianity came
to be seen as a faith event" (O. Michel, Dictionary of New Testament Theology).
"Faith is the divine response, wrought in man, by God" (from Berkof's Systematic Theology, representing the views of Barth and Brunner).

"Faith always has the element of assurance, certainty and confidence . . . and evidential value substantiating the thing we hope for . . . with faith, there is no strain or tension; rather, it has the element of assurance and confidence in it . . . if there is strain or tension . . . trying to persuade yourself to keep from doubting, you can be quite sure that it is not faith . . . faith is not the law of mathematical probability, . . . faith is not natural . . .faith is spiritual, the gift of God . . . you cannot command faith at will, faith is always something that is given-inwrought by God; . . . therefore, if you want to be a man of faith, it will always be the result of becoming a certain type of person" (M. Lloyd Jones, Romans, Ro 4:18-25).

"Faith is the divinely given conviction of things unseen" (Homer Kent Jr., Hebrews, 217, quoting Theological Dictionary of the NT vol 2, 476).
"Faith is the organ which enables people to see the invisible order" (F.
F. Bruce, Hebrews, 279).

"Faith is knowing what is His will toward us; therefore, we hold faith to be the knowledge of God's will toward us" (John Calvin, as quoted by R. McAfee Brown in Is Faith Obsolete?).
"Right faith is a thing wrought in us by the Holy Spirit" (Wm. Tyndale).
"We have made faith a condition of mind, when it is a divinely imparted grace of the heart . . . we can receive faith only as he gives it . . . you cannot manufacture faith, you can not work it up . . . you can believe a promise, and at the same time not have the faith to appropriate it . . . genuine, Scriptural faith is not our ability to ‘count it done,’ but is the deep consciousness divinely imparted to the heart of man that it is done, . . . it is the faith that only God can give . . . do not struggle in the power of the will . . . what a mistake to take our belief in God and call of faith . . . Christ, the living word, is our sufficiency . . . (Charles Price, The Real Faith, Logos/publications).

Note: On the distinction between believing (belief), and faith in the Scriptures see Js 2:19; Jn 10:38; Ac 8:13, 26:27,28; Ro 14:2; 2 Thes 2:11; 1 Jn 4:1; also Jn 2:23, 7:31, 12:42 and 4102/pisteuô ("believe").
As in the Gospels, a person's believing (belief) is vital (cf. Heb 11:6). But a personal encounter with Christ (a true connection with Him and His Word) is always necessary for believing ("man's responsibility") to be transformed into faith (which is always and only God's word). See also Mt 8:10,13, 9:22,28,29, 15:28; Ac 20:21; Ro 9:32; Gal 3:9,22.

Summary
Belief and faith are not exactly equivalent terms. When Jesus told people, "Your faith has made you well," faith was still His gift (Eph 2:8,9). Any gift however, once received, becomes the "possession" of the recipient. Faith however is always from God and is purely His work (2 Thes 1:11).
Note: The Greek definite article is uniformly used in the expressions "your faith," "their faith" (which occur over 30 times in the Greek NT). This genitive construction with the article refers to "the principle of faith (operating in) you" – not "your faith" in the sense that faith is ever generated by the recipient.
[The meaning of the definite article in this construction is "the principle of faith at work in you," "the operating-principle of faith in them," etc. For examples see: Mt 9:2,22,29; Lk 17:19; Phil 2:17; 2 Pet 1:5, etc.]

Faith (4102/pistis) involves belief but it goes beyond human believing because it involves the personal revelation (inworking) of God. Faith is always God's work. Our believing has eternal meaning when it becomes "faith-believing" by the transforming grace of God.
Reflection: Demons believe (and shudder) . . . but they do not have (experience) faith!
Js 2:19: "You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder" (NASU

Hi sotw.
My thread is more about pisteuo, the corresponding verb to pistis.
How Faith the noun or thing is applied.

 

[Watchman22]

Continued from Strongs about Faith

More on what faith is . . . and isn't

1. In Scripture, faith and belief are not exactly the same. Faith always comes from God and involves His revelation therefore faith is beyond belief!
2. Faith is God's work; faith is never the work of people. We cannot produce faith ourselves, nor can we "drum it up at will." Rather, faith comes as Christ speaks His rhçma-word within (see Ro 10:17, Gk text).
3. In all of Scripture, only the term faith is ever used in the following way: Ro 14:23: Whatever is not of faith (4102/pistis) is sin." Heb 11:6: "And without faith (4102/pistis) it is impossible to

please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him" (NASU).
Reflection: Nothing quite like this two-fold witness appears elsewhere in the Bible. These sweeping statements sober the heart and inspire the soul!
The Lord offers to inbirth faith in each scene of life – so that each matters equally in eternity . . . no matter how insignificant they seem (Lk 16:10 with Lk 17:6 and 2 Pet 1:2).

Key quotes
"Faith always pre-supposes revelation" (W. H. Griffith Thomas, Genesis, 55). "Faith is always a response to a divine revelation" (W. H. Griffith Thomas, Hebrews, 143). "Faith . . . both in its initiation and every step of the way, is Spirit given . . . faith is God given" (W. Hendriksen, Galatians, 197). "Faith precedes works, and is not something merely deduced by
reason of existing" (D. Edmond Hiebert, Thessalonians, 2 Thes 1:11). "Faith is always a gift of God" (L. Morris, John, p 520). "The basis of faith is God's revelation of Himself . . . Christianity came
to be seen as a faith event" (O. Michel, Dictionary of New Testament Theology).
"Faith is the divine response, wrought in man, by God" (from Berkof's Systematic Theology, representing the views of Barth and Brunner).

"Faith always has the element of assurance, certainty and confidence . . . and evidential value substantiating the thing we hope for . . . with faith, there is no strain or tension; rather, it has the element of assurance and confidence in it . . . if there is strain or tension . . . trying to persuade yourself to keep from doubting, you can be quite sure that it is not faith . . . faith is not the law of mathematical probability, . . . faith is not natural . . .faith is spiritual, the gift of God . . . you cannot command faith at will, faith is always something that is given-inwrought by God; . . . therefore, if you want to be a man of faith, it will always be the result of becoming a certain type of person" (M. Lloyd Jones, Romans, Ro 4:18-25).

"Faith is the divinely given conviction of things unseen" (Homer Kent Jr., Hebrews, 217, quoting Theological Dictionary of the NT vol 2, 476).
"Faith is the organ which enables people to see the invisible order" (F.
F. Bruce, Hebrews, 279).

"Faith is knowing what is His will toward us; therefore, we hold faith to be the knowledge of God's will toward us" (John Calvin, as quoted by R. McAfee Brown in Is Faith Obsolete?).
"Right faith is a thing wrought in us by the Holy Spirit" (Wm. Tyndale).
"We have made faith a condition of mind, when it is a divinely imparted grace of the heart . . . we can receive faith only as he gives it . . . you cannot manufacture faith, you can not work it up . . . you can believe a promise, and at the same time not have the faith to appropriate it . . . genuine, Scriptural faith is not our ability to ‘count it done,’ but is the deep consciousness divinely imparted to the heart of man that it is done, . . . it is the faith that only God can give . . . do not struggle in the power of the will . . . what a mistake to take our belief in God and call of faith . . . Christ, the living word, is our sufficiency . . . (Charles Price, The Real Faith, Logos/publications).

Note: On the distinction between believing (belief), and faith in the Scriptures see Js 2:19; Jn 10:38; Ac 8:13, 26:27,28; Ro 14:2; 2 Thes 2:11; 1 Jn 4:1; also Jn 2:23, 7:31, 12:42 and 4102/pisteuô ("believe").
As in the Gospels, a person's believing (belief) is vital (cf. Heb 11:6). But a personal encounter with Christ (a true connection with Him and His Word) is always necessary for believing ("man's responsibility") to be transformed into faith (which is always and only God's word). See also Mt 8:10,13, 9:22,28,29, 15:28; Ac 20:21; Ro 9:32; Gal 3:9,22.

Summary
Belief and faith are not exactly equivalent terms. When Jesus told people, "Your faith has made you well," faith was still His gift (Eph 2:8,9). Any gift however, once received, becomes the "possession" of the recipient. Faith however is always from God and is purely His work (2 Thes 1:11).
Note: The Greek definite article is uniformly used in the expressions "your faith," "their faith" (which occur over 30 times in the Greek NT). This genitive construction with the article refers to "the principle of faith (operating in) you" – not "your faith" in the sense that faith is ever generated by the recipient.
[The meaning of the definite article in this construction is "the principle of faith at work in you," "the operating-principle of faith in them," etc. For examples see: Mt 9:2,22,29; Lk 17:19; Phil 2:17; 2 Pet 1:5, etc.]

Faith (4102/pistis) involves belief but it goes beyond human believing because it involves the personal revelation (inworking) of God. Faith is always God's work. Our believing has eternal meaning when it becomes "faith-believing" by the transforming grace of God.
Reflection: Demons believe (and shudder) . . . but they do not have (experience) faith!
Js 2:19: "You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder" (NASU

The Strongs also gives a disclaimer, it says" pisteuo means not just to BELIEVE.

I didn't see that .

 

[Watchman22]

Continued from Strongs about Faith

More on what faith is . . . and isn't

1. In Scripture, faith and belief are not exactly the same. Faith always comes from God and involves His revelation therefore faith is beyond belief!
2. Faith is God's work; faith is never the work of people. We cannot produce faith ourselves, nor can we "drum it up at will." Rather, faith comes as Christ speaks His rhçma-word within (see Ro 10:17, Gk text).
3. In all of Scripture, only the term faith is ever used in the following way: Ro 14:23: Whatever is not of faith (4102/pistis) is sin." Heb 11:6: "And without faith (4102/pistis) it is impossible to

please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him" (NASU).
Reflection: Nothing quite like this two-fold witness appears elsewhere in the Bible. These sweeping statements sober the heart and inspire the soul!
The Lord offers to inbirth faith in each scene of life – so that each matters equally in eternity . . . no matter how insignificant they seem (Lk 16:10 with Lk 17:6 and 2 Pet 1:2).

Key quotes
"Faith always pre-supposes revelation" (W. H. Griffith Thomas, Genesis, 55). "Faith is always a response to a divine revelation" (W. H. Griffith Thomas, Hebrews, 143). "Faith . . . both in its initiation and every step of the way, is Spirit given . . . faith is God given" (W. Hendriksen, Galatians, 197). "Faith precedes works, and is not something merely deduced by
reason of existing" (D. Edmond Hiebert, Thessalonians, 2 Thes 1:11). "Faith is always a gift of God" (L. Morris, John, p 520). "The basis of faith is God's revelation of Himself . . . Christianity came
to be seen as a faith event" (O. Michel, Dictionary of New Testament Theology).
"Faith is the divine response, wrought in man, by God" (from Berkof's Systematic Theology, representing the views of Barth and Brunner).

"Faith always has the element of assurance, certainty and confidence . . . and evidential value substantiating the thing we hope for . . . with faith, there is no strain or tension; rather, it has the element of assurance and confidence in it . . . if there is strain or tension . . . trying to persuade yourself to keep from doubting, you can be quite sure that it is not faith . . . faith is not the law of mathematical probability, . . . faith is not natural . . .faith is spiritual, the gift of God . . . you cannot command faith at will, faith is always something that is given-inwrought by God; . . . therefore, if you want to be a man of faith, it will always be the result of becoming a certain type of person" (M. Lloyd Jones, Romans, Ro 4:18-25).

"Faith is the divinely given conviction of things unseen" (Homer Kent Jr., Hebrews, 217, quoting Theological Dictionary of the NT vol 2, 476).
"Faith is the organ which enables people to see the invisible order" (F.
F. Bruce, Hebrews, 279).

"Faith is knowing what is His will toward us; therefore, we hold faith to be the knowledge of God's will toward us" (John Calvin, as quoted by R. McAfee Brown in Is Faith Obsolete?).
"Right faith is a thing wrought in us by the Holy Spirit" (Wm. Tyndale).
"We have made faith a condition of mind, when it is a divinely imparted grace of the heart . . . we can receive faith only as he gives it . . . you cannot manufacture faith, you can not work it up . . . you can believe a promise, and at the same time not have the faith to appropriate it . . . genuine, Scriptural faith is not our ability to ‘count it done,’ but is the deep consciousness divinely imparted to the heart of man that it is done, . . . it is the faith that only God can give . . . do not struggle in the power of the will . . . what a mistake to take our belief in God and call of faith . . . Christ, the living word, is our sufficiency . . . (Charles Price, The Real Faith, Logos/publications).

Note: On the distinction between believing (belief), and faith in the Scriptures see Js 2:19; Jn 10:38; Ac 8:13, 26:27,28; Ro 14:2; 2 Thes 2:11; 1 Jn 4:1; also Jn 2:23, 7:31, 12:42 and 4102/pisteuô ("believe").
As in the Gospels, a person's believing (belief) is vital (cf. Heb 11:6). But a personal encounter with Christ (a true connection with Him and His Word) is always necessary for believing ("man's responsibility") to be transformed into faith (which is always and only God's word). See also Mt 8:10,13, 9:22,28,29, 15:28; Ac 20:21; Ro 9:32; Gal 3:9,22.

Summary
Belief and faith are not exactly equivalent terms. When Jesus told people, "Your faith has made you well," faith was still His gift (Eph 2:8,9). Any gift however, once received, becomes the "possession" of the recipient. Faith however is always from God and is purely His work (2 Thes 1:11).
Note: The Greek definite article is uniformly used in the expressions "your faith," "their faith" (which occur over 30 times in the Greek NT). This genitive construction with the article refers to "the principle of faith (operating in) you" – not "your faith" in the sense that faith is ever generated by the recipient.
[The meaning of the definite article in this construction is "the principle of faith at work in you," "the operating-principle of faith in them," etc. For examples see: Mt 9:2,22,29; Lk 17:19; Phil 2:17; 2 Pet 1:5, etc.]

Faith (4102/pistis) involves belief but it goes beyond human believing because it involves the personal revelation (inworking) of God. Faith is always God's work. Our believing has eternal meaning when it becomes "faith-believing" by the transforming grace of God.
Reflection: Demons believe (and shudder) . . . but they do not have (experience) faith!
Js 2:19: "You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder" (NASU

Sorry for bailing on you in the object of faith thread.
I'm not able to post for some reason, not for 3 days.

 

[Watchman22]

Continued from Strongs about Faith

More on what faith is . . . and isn't

1. In Scripture, faith and belief are not exactly the same. Faith always comes from God and involves His revelation therefore faith is beyond belief!
2. Faith is God's work; faith is never the work of people. We cannot produce faith ourselves, nor can we "drum it up at will." Rather, faith comes as Christ speaks His rhçma-word within (see Ro 10:17, Gk text).
3. In all of Scripture, only the term faith is ever used in the following way: Ro 14:23: Whatever is not of faith (4102/pistis) is sin." Heb 11:6: "And without faith (4102/pistis) it is impossible to

please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him" (NASU).
Reflection: Nothing quite like this two-fold witness appears elsewhere in the Bible. These sweeping statements sober the heart and inspire the soul!
The Lord offers to inbirth faith in each scene of life – so that each matters equally in eternity . . . no matter how insignificant they seem (Lk 16:10 with Lk 17:6 and 2 Pet 1:2).

Key quotes
"Faith always pre-supposes revelation" (W. H. Griffith Thomas, Genesis, 55). "Faith is always a response to a divine revelation" (W. H. Griffith Thomas, Hebrews, 143). "Faith . . . both in its initiation and every step of the way, is Spirit given . . . faith is God given" (W. Hendriksen, Galatians, 197). "Faith precedes works, and is not something merely deduced by
reason of existing" (D. Edmond Hiebert, Thessalonians, 2 Thes 1:11). "Faith is always a gift of God" (L. Morris, John, p 520). "The basis of faith is God's revelation of Himself . . . Christianity came
to be seen as a faith event" (O. Michel, Dictionary of New Testament Theology).
"Faith is the divine response, wrought in man, by God" (from Berkof's Systematic Theology, representing the views of Barth and Brunner).

"Faith always has the element of assurance, certainty and confidence . . . and evidential value substantiating the thing we hope for . . . with faith, there is no strain or tension; rather, it has the element of assurance and confidence in it . . . if there is strain or tension . . . trying to persuade yourself to keep from doubting, you can be quite sure that it is not faith . . . faith is not the law of mathematical probability, . . . faith is not natural . . .faith is spiritual, the gift of God . . . you cannot command faith at will, faith is always something that is given-inwrought by God; . . . therefore, if you want to be a man of faith, it will always be the result of becoming a certain type of person" (M. Lloyd Jones, Romans, Ro 4:18-25).

"Faith is the divinely given conviction of things unseen" (Homer Kent Jr., Hebrews, 217, quoting Theological Dictionary of the NT vol 2, 476).
"Faith is the organ which enables people to see the invisible order" (F.
F. Bruce, Hebrews, 279).

"Faith is knowing what is His will toward us; therefore, we hold faith to be the knowledge of God's will toward us" (John Calvin, as quoted by R. McAfee Brown in Is Faith Obsolete?).
"Right faith is a thing wrought in us by the Holy Spirit" (Wm. Tyndale).
"We have made faith a condition of mind, when it is a divinely imparted grace of the heart . . . we can receive faith only as he gives it . . . you cannot manufacture faith, you can not work it up . . . you can believe a promise, and at the same time not have the faith to appropriate it . . . genuine, Scriptural faith is not our ability to ‘count it done,’ but is the deep consciousness divinely imparted to the heart of man that it is done, . . . it is the faith that only God can give . . . do not struggle in the power of the will . . . what a mistake to take our belief in God and call of faith . . . Christ, the living word, is our sufficiency . . . (Charles Price, The Real Faith, Logos/publications).

Note: On the distinction between believing (belief), and faith in the Scriptures see Js 2:19; Jn 10:38; Ac 8:13, 26:27,28; Ro 14:2; 2 Thes 2:11; 1 Jn 4:1; also Jn 2:23, 7:31, 12:42 and 4102/pisteuô ("believe").
As in the Gospels, a person's believing (belief) is vital (cf. Heb 11:6). But a personal encounter with Christ (a true connection with Him and His Word) is always necessary for believing ("man's responsibility") to be transformed into faith (which is always and only God's word). See also Mt 8:10,13, 9:22,28,29, 15:28; Ac 20:21; Ro 9:32; Gal 3:9,22.

Summary
Belief and faith are not exactly equivalent terms. When Jesus told people, "Your faith has made you well," faith was still His gift (Eph 2:8,9). Any gift however, once received, becomes the "possession" of the recipient. Faith however is always from God and is purely His work (2 Thes 1:11).
Note: The Greek definite article is uniformly used in the expressions "your faith," "their faith" (which occur over 30 times in the Greek NT). This genitive construction with the article refers to "the principle of faith (operating in) you" – not "your faith" in the sense that faith is ever generated by the recipient.
[The meaning of the definite article in this construction is "the principle of faith at work in you," "the operating-principle of faith in them," etc. For examples see: Mt 9:2,22,29; Lk 17:19; Phil 2:17; 2 Pet 1:5, etc.]

Faith (4102/pistis) involves belief but it goes beyond human believing because it involves the personal revelation (inworking) of God. Faith is always God's work. Our believing has eternal meaning when it becomes "faith-believing" by the transforming grace of God.
Reflection: Demons believe (and shudder) . . . but they do not have (experience) faith!
Js 2:19: "You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder" (NASU

This commentary suggests that faith is always a gift from God.

I could argue that everything is a gift from God. But one of those gifts is the ability to choose. The ability to respond in a way that unlocks Gods ways concerning the faith life.
An act, based upon a belief, sustained by confidence. This takes courage, 95%. Endurance, 4%. And everything else 1%.

 

[studentoftheword]

This commentary suggests that faith is always a gift from God.

And that is the truth ---there are 3 kinds of Faith
all 3 Faiths Comes come God -------

Your born with intellectual Faith ---Dead Faith -----God given ----this Faith is a no producing Faith ---Intellectual Faith relies on your 5 senses -----

demonic Faith ---God gave demons ---Faith ----they have Faith in who Jesus is --the Son of God --but demons cannot be Saved ---Dead Faith -----so this is a non producing Faith ----

God's Faith ----Dynamic Faith==Saving Faith Comes from hearing the Word of God who is Jesus -----so this Faith comes from God and is a Producing Faith -----it saves you --and produced what it says it will -----

Three Kinds of Faith in James:

Dead Faith (James 2:14-17): Characterized as claiming to have faith but lacking actions or works. It is described as a "hollow promise" or intellectual assent that is useless and cannot save.


Demonic Faith (James 2:18-19): Involves intellectual belief and emotional reaction—even believing in one God—but lacks personal, life-changing submission to Him. James notes that even demons believe this way and tremble.

Dynamic Faith (James 2:20-26): Also referred to as saving or living faith, this involves the mind, emotions, and will, resulting in action. It is validated by obedience and works, such as the examples of Abraham and Rahab.
Only one of these, Dynamic Faith, results in salvation.

 

[studentoftheword]

Sorry for bailing on you in the object of faith thread.

No worries ----good sparing with you

 

[Watchman22]

And that is the truth ---there are 3 kinds of Faith
all 3 Faiths Comes come God -------

Your born with intellectual Faith ---Dead Faith -----God given ----this Faith is a no producing Faith ---Intellectual Faith relies on your 5 senses -----

demonic Faith ---God gave demons ---Faith ----they have Faith in who Jesus is --the Son of God --but demons cannot be Saved ---Dead Faith -----so this is a non producing Faith ----

God's Faith ----Dynamic Faith==Saving Faith Comes from hearing the Word of God who is Jesus -----so this Faith comes from God and is a Producing Faith -----it saves you --and produced what it says it will -----

Three Kinds of Faith in James:

Dead Faith (James 2:14-17): Characterized as claiming to have faith but lacking actions or works. It is described as a "hollow promise" or intellectual assent that is useless and cannot save.



Demonic Faith (James 2:18-19): Involves intellectual belief and emotional reaction—even believing in one God—but lacks personal, life-changing submission to Him. James notes that even demons believe this way and tremble.

Dynamic Faith (James 2:20-26): Also referred to as saving or living faith, this involves the mind, emotions, and will, resulting in action. It is validated by obedience and works, such as the examples of Abraham and Rahab.
Only one of these, Dynamic Faith, results in salvation.

Lets look at it like this.
Faith, being "a thing" that everyone has is a gift from God. What we do with that Faith, is our choice.

What i shared about pisteuo, the Greek word used to communicate the mandate that must be fulfilled to recieve His spirit.
1) a firm conviction.
2) a personal surrender to Him.
3) a life inspired by such surrender.

Do you agree with the Vines definition?

 

[studentoftheword]

Faith, being "a thing" t

God's saving Faith which comes by hearing His Word who is Jesus is not a Thing ----Faith is a substance ---
Hebrews 11:1 (KJV), faith is defined as "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen".

It acts as a foundational assurance or "title deed" to future realities, allowing believers to experience the certainty of God's promises before they are physically manifested.

Lexical Summary
hupostasis: Substance, assurance, confidence, essence, reality

properly, (to possess) standing under a guaranteed agreement ("title-deed"); (figuratively) "title" to a promise or property, i.e. a legitimate claim (because it literally is, "under a legal-standing") – entitling someone to what is guaranteed under the particular agreement.

hypóstasis ("title of possession") is the Lord's guarantee to fulfill the faith He inbirths (cf. Heb 11:1

What we do with that Faith, is our choice.

No ----this is wrong here -----You have free will to choose in decision making in your daily life ----but that has nothing to do with us choosing what we can do with these 2 Faiths -----intellectual Faith or or Saving Faith ---

Faith is given to you by God ---you cannot choose what you want to do with that Faith -----Intellectual Faith is instilled in you at birth by God ----and Saving Faith is inbirthed in you by hearing the Gospel so Faith is not your choice -----

Now you can choose not to Grow strong in God's Saving Dynamic Faith by choosing not to mature Spiritually in your walk with Christ -----and stay in your Carnal state ---but that Faith is in you regardless


God's Dynamic Saving Faith ----is like dynamite ----it is living and can move your Mountain straight out of the way ----

David and Goliath ---is a perfect example -----David representing God's Living Faith and Goliath representing our Mountain in front of us ----was literally moves out of the way by David putting God's dynamic Faith into Action ------sweatless victory -----with a sling and a pebble

 

[Watchman22]

God's saving Faith which comes by hearing His Word who is Jesus is not a Thing ----Faith is a substance ---
Hebrews 11:1 (KJV), faith is defined as "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen".

It acts as a foundational assurance or "title deed" to future realities, allowing believers to experience the certainty of God's promises before they are physically manifested.

Lexical Summary
hupostasis: Substance, assurance, confidence, essence, reality

properly, (to possess) standing under a guaranteed agreement ("title-deed"); (figuratively) "title" to a promise or property, i.e. a legitimate claim (because it literally is, "under a legal-standing") – entitling someone to what is guaranteed under the particular agreement.

hypóstasis ("title of possession") is the Lord's guarantee to fulfill the faith He inbirths (cf. Heb 11:1




No ----this is wrong here -----You have free will to choose in decision making in your daily life ----but that has nothing to do with us choosing what we can do with these 2 Faiths -----intellectual Faith or or Saving Faith ---

Faith is given to you by God ---you cannot choose what you want to do with that Faith -----Intellectual Faith is instilled in you at birth by God ----and Saving Faith is inbirthed in you by hearing the Gospel so Faith is not your choice -----

Now you can choose not to Grow strong in God's Saving Dynamic Faith by choosing not to mature Spiritually in your walk with Christ -----and stay in your Carnal state ---but that Faith is in you regardless


God's Dynamic Saving Faith ----is like dynamite ----it is living and can move your Mountain straight out of the way ----

David and Goliath ---is a perfect example -----David representing God's Living Faith and Goliath representing our Mountain in front of us ----was literally moves out of the way by David putting God's dynamic Faith into Action ------sweatless victory -----with a sling and a pebble

So when your saying faith is not a thing, your accually saying that the word faith is not a noun. Faith is a noun, a person, place, or thing. It's a thing.

Second, when you say we're not capable of responding to the call of the Father with 1) a firm conviction. 2) a personal surrender to Him. 3) a life inspired by such surrender. Your just missing the foundational understanding of how God works.

What your actually saying, is God gifts us salvation at birth. No response , no choice, no surrendered life.

God is looking to repopulate heaven with faithers, people who freely choose Him by a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. Thats not gifted to us. We are called to make a choice, to be perfected.

Theres quite the gap in our understandings. I think your mixing up grace and faith. Grace is the gift, the actual substance. Called the Grace deposit in the Greek. The same substance that raised Christ from the dead.

 

[Watchman22]

God's saving Faith which comes by hearing His Word who is Jesus is not a Thing ----Faith is a substance ---
Hebrews 11:1 (KJV), faith is defined as "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen".

It acts as a foundational assurance or "title deed" to future realities, allowing believers to experience the certainty of God's promises before they are physically manifested.

Lexical Summary
hupostasis: Substance, assurance, confidence, essence, reality

properly, (to possess) standing under a guaranteed agreement ("title-deed"); (figuratively) "title" to a promise or property, i.e. a legitimate claim (because it literally is, "under a legal-standing") – entitling someone to what is guaranteed under the particular agreement.

hypóstasis ("title of possession") is the Lord's guarantee to fulfill the faith He inbirths (cf. Heb 11:1




No ----this is wrong here -----You have free will to choose in decision making in your daily life ----but that has nothing to do with us choosing what we can do with these 2 Faiths -----intellectual Faith or or Saving Faith ---

Faith is given to you by God ---you cannot choose what you want to do with that Faith -----Intellectual Faith is instilled in you at birth by God ----and Saving Faith is inbirthed in you by hearing the Gospel so Faith is not your choice -----

Now you can choose not to Grow strong in God's Saving Dynamic Faith by choosing not to mature Spiritually in your walk with Christ -----and stay in your Carnal state ---but that Faith is in you regardless


God's Dynamic Saving Faith ----is like dynamite ----it is living and can move your Mountain straight out of the way ----

David and Goliath ---is a perfect example -----David representing God's Living Faith and Goliath representing our Mountain in front of us ----was literally moves out of the way by David putting God's dynamic Faith into Action ------sweatless victory -----with a sling and a pebble

Heb. 11:1 , Faith is the substance of things hoped for .
The word substance is hupostasis in the Greek, and means essence, assurance. It's not an actual substance.

 

[Watchman22]

God's saving Faith which comes by hearing His Word who is Jesus is not a Thing ----Faith is a substance ---
Hebrews 11:1 (KJV), faith is defined as "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen".

It acts as a foundational assurance or "title deed" to future realities, allowing believers to experience the certainty of God's promises before they are physically manifested.

Lexical Summary
hupostasis: Substance, assurance, confidence, essence, reality

properly, (to possess) standing under a guaranteed agreement ("title-deed"); (figuratively) "title" to a promise or property, i.e. a legitimate claim (because it literally is, "under a legal-standing") – entitling someone to what is guaranteed under the particular agreement.

hypóstasis ("title of possession") is the Lord's guarantee to fulfill the faith He inbirths (cf. Heb 11:1




No ----this is wrong here -----You have free will to choose in decision making in your daily life ----but that has nothing to do with us choosing what we can do with these 2 Faiths -----intellectual Faith or or Saving Faith ---

Faith is given to you by God ---you cannot choose what you want to do with that Faith -----Intellectual Faith is instilled in you at birth by God ----and Saving Faith is inbirthed in you by hearing the Gospel so Faith is not your choice -----

Now you can choose not to Grow strong in God's Saving Dynamic Faith by choosing not to mature Spiritually in your walk with Christ -----and stay in your Carnal state ---but that Faith is in you regardless


God's Dynamic Saving Faith ----is like dynamite ----it is living and can move your Mountain straight out of the way ----

David and Goliath ---is a perfect example -----David representing God's Living Faith and Goliath representing our Mountain in front of us ----was literally moves out of the way by David putting God's dynamic Faith into Action ------sweatless victory -----with a sling and a pebble

I think instead of you saying faith is a gift that God gives us, it would be more accurate to say when we respond with faith ( a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender) he then enables us to continue in faith.

So when we start the continually surrendered life, God does something that causes us to keep surrendering our lives to Him. For me it was His presence. Once I felt His presence, and I knew it was connected to continually surrendering my life to Him, I wanted to keep doing it better and better.

So it can be said, faith produces faith. Or, a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender, produces a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.

 

[Watchman22]

God's saving Faith which comes by hearing His Word who is Jesus is not a Thing ----Faith is a substance ---
Hebrews 11:1 (KJV), faith is defined as "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen".

It acts as a foundational assurance or "title deed" to future realities, allowing believers to experience the certainty of God's promises before they are physically manifested.

Lexical Summary
hupostasis: Substance, assurance, confidence, essence, reality

properly, (to possess) standing under a guaranteed agreement ("title-deed"); (figuratively) "title" to a promise or property, i.e. a legitimate claim (because it literally is, "under a legal-standing") – entitling someone to what is guaranteed under the particular agreement.

hypóstasis ("title of possession") is the Lord's guarantee to fulfill the faith He inbirths (cf. Heb 11:1




No ----this is wrong here -----You have free will to choose in decision making in your daily life ----but that has nothing to do with us choosing what we can do with these 2 Faiths -----intellectual Faith or or Saving Faith ---

Faith is given to you by God ---you cannot choose what you want to do with that Faith -----Intellectual Faith is instilled in you at birth by God ----and Saving Faith is inbirthed in you by hearing the Gospel so Faith is not your choice -----

Now you can choose not to Grow strong in God's Saving Dynamic Faith by choosing not to mature Spiritually in your walk with Christ -----and stay in your Carnal state ---but that Faith is in you regardless


God's Dynamic Saving Faith ----is like dynamite ----it is living and can move your Mountain straight out of the way ----

David and Goliath ---is a perfect example -----David representing God's Living Faith and Goliath representing our Mountain in front of us ----was literally moves out of the way by David putting God's dynamic Faith into Action ------sweatless victory -----with a sling and a pebble

Like I said faith the noun, a thing, it is a gift from God. Having the faith, that thing, that ability to apply it, that's when pisteuo or saving faith comes in.

God ways,
God is a covenant making God, He has always been one.

When we are called by the Father, we respond with a turning to the caller (repentance act) in our minds. We then " choose" to make the first step towards Him by a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. Thats not given to us, the ability "TO" choose is the gift.

I'm getting the feeling your understandings are such that maybe you have been led to understand saving faith is given to the chosen or elect at birth and they will automatically be saved?

If thats true, God is just creating and populating heaven with more angels.

He's looking for those ones who willingly choose to follow After Him, His Son, the anointed messiah, Jesus.

 

[mailmandan]

The Strongs also gives a disclaimer, it says" pisteuo means not just to BELIEVE.

I didn't see that .

4100. pisteuó

pisteuó: To believe, to have faith, to trust

Strong's Greek: 4100. πιστεύω (pisteuó) -- To believe, to have faith, to trust

 

[mailmandan]

Lets look at it like this.
Faith, being "a thing" that everyone has is a gift from God. What we do with that Faith, is our choice.

What i shared about pisteuo, the Greek word used to communicate the mandate that must be fulfilled to recieve His spirit.
1) a firm conviction.
2) a personal surrender to Him.
3) a life inspired by such surrender.

Do you agree with the Vines definition?

You seem to be heavily focused on actions which "follow" faith and try to include those actions into the definition of believe/faith. Roman Catholics make the same error. A Roman Catholic once posted this to me on a Christian forum:

We are saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is not simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being water baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments etc..

Roman Catholics would refer to accomplishing these works above as a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. Is that where you are going with this as well?

 

[Watchman22]

You seem to be heavily focused on actions which "follow" faith and try to include those actions into the definition of believe/faith. Roman Catholics make the same error. A Roman Catholic once posted this to me on a Christian forum:

We are saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is not simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being water baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments etc..

Roman Catholics would refer to accomplishing these works above as a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. Is that where you are going with this as well?

7th

I can find the word "believe" 244 times in the NT. Believe is a bad translation at best. If it's taken as the whole truth it's error. Every serious Christian acknowledges that. It's just difficult to know the whole understanding of pisteuo. I've done it, im on the path yelling back to those who have ears to hear, "it's a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender." Not just to BELIEVE!

The Strongs gives the disclaimer," pisteuo means not just to believe. "

The vines
states,
"All this stands in contrast to belief in its purely natural exercise, which consists of an opinion held in good "faith" without necessary reference to its proof. The object of Abraham's "faith" was not God's promise (that was the occasion of its exercise); his "faith" rested on God Himself.

Your issue isn't with me or the catholics, it's with the Vines Greek dictionary. You reject what they give as the correct definition of saving faith. If that's your stance, it will be senseless to attempt to discuss pisteuo.

I'm non-denominational, but lean heavily pro- testant.

 

[mailmandan]

7th

I can find the word "believe" 244 times in the NT. Believe is a bad translation at best. If it's taken as the whole truth it's error. Every serious Christian acknowledges that. It's just difficult to know the whole understanding of pisteuo. I've done it, im on the path yelling back to those who have ears to hear, "it's a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender." Not just to BELIEVE!

The Strongs gives the disclaimer," pisteuo means not just to believe. "

The vines
states,
"All this stands in contrast to belief in its purely natural exercise, which consists of an opinion held in good "faith" without necessary reference to its proof. The object of Abraham's "faith" was not God's promise (that was the occasion of its exercise); his "faith" rested on God Himself.

Your issue isn't with me or the catholics, it's with the Vines Greek dictionary. You reject what they give as the correct definition of saving faith. If that's your stance, it will be senseless to attempt to discuss pisteuo.

I'm non-denominational, but lean heavily pro- testant.

So, based on your eisegesis involving the Vines definition, you're ultimate goal culminates in trying to "shoehorn" works into the definition of believe/faith.