The Ten Commandments are the Covenant, did you know?

[Inquisitor]

good luck to you! you'll need it. goodbye!

Just show me once in the scripture where God states that the Gentiles are under the law.

Do not use inference.

Inference is the logical process of reaching a conclusion based on evidence, reasoning, or premises,
rather than direct observation.

 

[vassal]

Just show me once in the scripture where God states that the Gentiles are under the law.

Do not use inference.

Inference is the logical process of reaching a conclusion based on evidence, reasoning, or premises,
rather than direct observation.

i have given this to you already

 

[vassal]

Just show me once in the scripture where God states that the Gentiles are under the law.

Do not use inference.

Inference is the logical process of reaching a conclusion based on evidence, reasoning, or premises,
rather than direct observation.

This confusion only survives because people refuse to read carefully. First, God never says the commandments are only for Jews. Ever.
Here it is, plain and direct: Gentiles under God’s law in the Old Testament
“One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.”
Exodus 12:49 (ASV)
That is not ceremonial law. That is God speaking.
One law. Same standard. Jew and Gentile. Again:
“One ordinance shall be both for you of the assembly, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you… as ye are, so shall the stranger be before Jehovah.”
Numbers 15:15–16 (ASV)
Same law. Same judgment. Same God.

If Gentiles were not under God’s law, this verse would be impossible. Now let us be very clear about something people keep mixing on purpose.
The commandments and the law of Moses are NOT the same thing.
God Himself separates them.
“The LORD spake unto you… and he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even the ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and ordinances.”
Deuteronomy 4:13–14 (ASV)

Read that slowly.

The commandments were:
• spoken by God
• written by God
• called the covenant​

The statutes and ordinances were:
• given through Moses​

Different source.
Different function.
Different category.​

Now here is the key point they hate.
Gentiles were judged for breaking God’s commandments even without Moses.
Before Sinai.
Before Israel.
Before the law of Moses.
Why was Cain guilty of murder?
Why was Sodom judged?
Why was Pharaoh punished?

Because God’s moral law already existed. Jesus confirms this when He says:
“The men of Nineveh shall stand up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it.”
Matthew 12:41 (ASV)
Nineveh was Gentile. Yet judged. Judgment requires law. Jesus also says:
“Every one that doeth sin doeth also lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.”
1 John 3:4 (ASV)
Lawlessness applies to everyone, not Jews only. And Jesus makes it even sharper:
“The word that I spake, the same shall judge him in the last day.”
John 12:48 (ASV)
Not “Jewish law.” His words.

Universal judgment.
So here is the reality, stripped of excuses:
• Gentiles were never under the law of Moses
• Gentiles were always under God’s moral law
• The Ten Commandments express that moral law
• God Himself applied it to strangers and nations
• Jesus confirms it applies to all mankind
Saying “Gentiles were never under the law” is only true if you falsely collapse everything into Moses.
God never did that. Jesus never did that.
Only confused theology does.
End of story.

 

[Undergrace1]

Just show me once in the scripture where God states that the Gentiles are under the law.

Do not use inference.

Inference is the logical process of reaching a conclusion based on evidence, reasoning, or premises,
rather than direct observation.

Being under the law is being under righteousness of obeying it:
Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness for everyone who believeth Rom10:4
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. Rom3:21&22

 

[Inquisitor]

“One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.”
Exodus 12:49 (ASV)

Here is your quotation to support the idea that Gentiles are under the law.

“One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.”
Exodus 12:49 (ASV)

Here are the surrounding verses that provide the context and clarification for Exodus 12:49.

Exodus 12:47-49
All the congregation of Israel are to celebrate this. But if a stranger sojourns with you, and celebrates
the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near to celebrate it;
and he shall be like a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person may eat of it. The same law
shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you.

1) Exodus 12:49, does not say that Gentiles are under the law
2) The Gentile that lives with you (Sojourner)
3) The Gentile must be circumcised
4) The Gentile is LIKE a native but not a native Israelite because he is not a descendant of Abraham

You have failed in your quotation to establish that Gentiles are under the law.

They must be circumcised which is the law.

 

[vassal]

Being under the law is being under righteousness of obeying it:
Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness for everyone who believeth Rom10:4
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. Rom3:21&22

“Under the law” does not mean obeying God. That idea is already defeated by Jesus Himself. Jesus obeyed the Father perfectly. Was He under condemnation? Of course not. Being “under the law” means being under its judgment because of sin. Jesus said plainly that whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. Obedience never placed anyone under condemnation. Sin did.
Righteousness was never defined as belief without obedience. Jesus destroyed that idea before it was ever invented. He said that unless a person’s righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, they will not enter the kingdom of heaven. If righteousness were only believing, that statement would be meaningless. The Pharisees believed in God. What they lacked was obedience from the heart.

When people say Christ is “the end of the law,” they twist the meaning. Jesus Himself answered this directly. He said He did not come to destroy the Law or the Prophets but to fulfill them. Fulfill does not mean cancel. It means to bring to their true purpose and meaning. If “end” meant abolish, Jesus would be contradicting Himself. He does not.

The Law and the Prophets never taught salvation without faith. Jesus said clearly that if people truly believed Moses, they would believe Him, because Moses wrote about Him. Faith was always there. What was also always there was obedience. God never accepted rebellion dressed up as belief.

Jesus completely shuts down the idea that belief alone is enough. He said not everyone who calls Him Lord will enter the kingdom, but the one who does the will of the Father. Words are not enough. Claims are not enough. Belief that does not obey is rejected by Jesus Himself.

Straight from Christ’s mouth. He warned that whoever breaks even the least commandment and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. Jesus ties faith, righteousness, and obedience together. You cannot separate them without contradicting Him.
Obedience never put anyone “under the law.” Sin did. Christ did not abolish God’s law. He fulfilled it. Faith that does not obey is not saving faith. And Jesus, not Romans, defines righteousness. The Ten Commandments that define the covenant frees us from sin when followed from the heart through the Holy Spirit.

 

[Undergrace1]

“Under the law” does not mean obeying God. That idea is already defeated by Jesus Himself. Jesus obeyed the Father perfectly. Was He under condemnation? Of course not. Being “under the law” means being under its judgment because of sin. Jesus said plainly that whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. Obedience never placed anyone under condemnation. Sin did.
Righteousness was never defined as belief without obedience. Jesus destroyed that idea before it was ever invented. He said that unless a person’s righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, they will not enter the kingdom of heaven. If righteousness were only believing, that statement would be meaningless. The Pharisees believed in God. What they lacked was obedience from the heart.

When people say Christ is “the end of the law,” they twist the meaning. Jesus Himself answered this directly. He said He did not come to destroy the Law or the Prophets but to fulfill them. Fulfill does not mean cancel. It means to bring to their true purpose and meaning. If “end” meant abolish, Jesus would be contradicting Himself. He does not.

The Law and the Prophets never taught salvation without faith. Jesus said clearly that if people truly believed Moses, they would believe Him, because Moses wrote about Him. Faith was always there. What was also always there was obedience. God never accepted rebellion dressed up as belief.

Jesus completely shuts down the idea that belief alone is enough. He said not everyone who calls Him Lord will enter the kingdom, but the one who does the will of the Father. Words are not enough. Claims are not enough. Belief that does not obey is rejected by Jesus Himself.

Straight from Christ’s mouth. He warned that whoever breaks even the least commandment and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. Jesus ties faith, righteousness, and obedience together. You cannot separate them without contradicting Him.
Obedience never put anyone “under the law.” Sin did. Christ did not abolish God’s law. He fulfilled it. Faith that does not obey is not saving faith. And Jesus, not Romans, defines righteousness. The Ten Commandments that define the covenant frees us from sin when followed from the heart through the Holy Spirit.

Under the law is under righteousness/justification of obeying the law, full stop

 

[vassal]

Here is your quotation to support the idea that Gentiles are under the law.

“One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.”
Exodus 12:49 (ASV)

Here are the surrounding verses that provide the context and clarification for Exodus 12:49.

Exodus 12:47-49
All the congregation of Israel are to celebrate this. But if a stranger sojourns with you, and celebrates
the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near to celebrate it;
and he shall be like a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person may eat of it. The same law
shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you.

1) Exodus 12:49, does not say that Gentiles are under the law
2) The Gentile that lives with you (Sojourner)
3) The Gentile must be circumcised
4) The Gentile is LIKE a native but not a native Israelite because he is not a descendant of Abraham

You have failed in your quotation to establish that Gentiles are under the law.

They must be circumcised which is the law.

that example was O.T, for them then who joined israel, you asked me for the verses, you got them. ant you do not like them as again you reject toe spoken words of GOD in the bible. this is our very lase discussion.

in the NT is the 10 commandments, the covenant, but you know this already. you know about the Jerusalem council stop being a hypocrite!

this is what i wrote to you ;


So here is the reality, stripped of excuses:
• Gentiles were never under the law of Moses
• Gentiles were always under God’s moral law
• The Ten Commandments express that moral law
• God Himself applied it to strangers and nations
• Jesus confirms it applies to all mankind
Saying “Gentiles were never under the law” is only true if you falsely collapse everything into Moses.
God never did that. Jesus never did that.
Only confused theology does.

End of story.

you have closed your heart and will not see the truth this is on you. we have having this discussion for more than one year now and you still persist ignoring God's words.

if you disagree we shall not speak again.

 

[Undergrace1]

“Under the law” does not mean obeying God. That idea is already defeated by Jesus Himself. Jesus obeyed the Father perfectly. Was He under condemnation? Of course not. Being “under the law” means being under its judgment because of sin. Jesus said plainly that whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. Obedience never placed anyone under condemnation. Sin did.
Righteousness was never defined as belief without obedience. Jesus destroyed that idea before it was ever invented. He said that unless a person’s righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, they will not enter the kingdom of heaven. If righteousness were only believing, that statement would be meaningless. The Pharisees believed in God. What they lacked was obedience from the heart.

When people say Christ is “the end of the law,” they twist the meaning. Jesus Himself answered this directly. He said He did not come to destroy the Law or the Prophets but to fulfill them. Fulfill does not mean cancel. It means to bring to their true purpose and meaning. If “end” meant abolish, Jesus would be contradicting Himself. He does not.

The Law and the Prophets never taught salvation without faith. Jesus said clearly that if people truly believed Moses, they would believe Him, because Moses wrote about Him. Faith was always there. What was also always there was obedience. God never accepted rebellion dressed up as belief.

Jesus completely shuts down the idea that belief alone is enough. He said not everyone who calls Him Lord will enter the kingdom, but the one who does the will of the Father. Words are not enough. Claims are not enough. Belief that does not obey is rejected by Jesus Himself.

Straight from Christ’s mouth. He warned that whoever breaks even the least commandment and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. Jesus ties faith, righteousness, and obedience together. You cannot separate them without contradicting Him.
Obedience never put anyone “under the law.” Sin did. Christ did not abolish God’s law. He fulfilled it. Faith that does not obey is not saving faith. And Jesus, not Romans, defines righteousness. The Ten Commandments that define the covenant frees us from sin when followed from the heart through the Holy Spirit.

And if we are careful to obey all this law before the Lord our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness.” Deut6:25
Christ is the end of the law UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS for everyone who believeth Rom10:4
Bit tough for those who want an old covenant style religion

 

[Mem]

A person believes they MUST obey the TC, if they do not, they prove they have no righteousness before God. Transgress one you transgress them all

It won’t be that hard for them not to murder, steal, commit the physical act of adultery, not take the Lord’s name in vain, build a golden calf and worship it etc. But what do they do where the tenth commandment is concerned? For this commandment relates to what goes on, on the inside of man, their thoughts/desires, no outward act is required to transgress it.

Well if a person truly in their heart believes the TC as one whole MUST be obeyed to show they have saving faith, they will feel very bad about what goes on, on the inside of them, they can do nothing else. Sin is the transgression of the law, they will be conscious of their sin internally, and they will be greatly worried about it, for you cannot hide from what is written in law placed in your most inward parts. Saving faith requires obedience to all of the TC. At this point, and this is biblical, sin on the inside will increase. What does a person do who believes they MUST obey the TC to prove they truly are saved? There is only two options, either they give up with the faith crushed by their inability to obey the letter that kills, or they become hardnosed, convincing themselves that what goes on, on the inside of man is trivial, unimportant. If they take that option, when they insist others MUST obey the TC, to transgress one is to transgress them all, they will be preaching what they cannot practice. Jesus reserved his harshest words for the religious who acted that way

Jesus told the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector "To some who trusted in their own righteousness and viewed others with contempt (Luke 18:9)." The one that loathed his sin went home justified while the one that boasts of his virtues (in this case moral superiority) will be humbled.

 

[TMS]

People who have the fulness of the Spirit in them, a living relationship with God through Christ, and have the fulness in their heart and mind of how God wants them to live, cannot go around casually transgressing what is in their hearts and minds without conscience, that is IMPOSSIBLE

What about catholic people that have been taught that it is okay to bow down to graven images.
What about people that have never been shown the or never understood the details of the law.

For example. I man was talking to a SDA about the Sabbath day. He explained what it ment to him an how he thought it was changed to sunday. Then the SDA explained what it ment to him.
The man said "no one has ever explained it like that before, I always thought the sabbath was Sunday. Know that I know it's the 7th day and the bible has not changed the day, I'll rethink this subject.

When we are ignorant to the truth God winks at it. But there is a point when ignorance is not an excuse.
When our hearts and minds are ignorant to the truth the Holy Spirit can't convict us.

Jesus wants to write the law on our hearts so that we internalize them but will not force us. Psa 119:105 NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

Without the word we will be walking in darkness.

 

[Undergrace1]

What about catholic people that have been taught that it is okay to bow down to graven images.
What about people that have never been shown the or never understood the details of the law.

For example. I man was talking to a SDA about the Sabbath day. He explained what it ment to him an how he thought it was changed to sunday. Then the SDA explained what it ment to him.
The man said "no one has ever explained it like that before, I always thought the sabbath was Sunday. Know that I know it's the 7th day and the bible has not changed the day, I'll rethink this subject.

When we are ignorant to the truth God winks at it. But there is a point when ignorance is not an excuse.
When our hearts and minds are ignorant to the truth the Holy Spirit can't convict us.

Jesus wants to write the law on our hearts so that we internalize them but will not force us. Psa 119:105 NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

Without the word we will be walking in darkness.

Well you need to get a catholic to explain to you catholic belief, I don't pretend to know enough about it.
Concerning saturday sabbath, as I previously told you, if that law as written was written in the mind and placed on the heart at conversion, no one could be in a saved state unless they had heartfelt consciousness of sin at not following it(1John3:4&Rom3:20)
Jesus does not want to write the law in our hearts and minds, God does it at conversion:
I WILL write my laws in their minds
I WILL place my laws in their hearts
What God states, God does

 

[Undergrace1]

What about people that have never been shown the or never understood the details of the law.

.

(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements(not some of the requirements) of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) Rom2:14&15
The above is the christian experience I know

 

[TMS]

Just show me once in the scripture where God states that the Gentiles are under the law.

Do not use inference.

Inference is the logical process of reaching a conclusion based on evidence, reasoning, or premises,
rather than direct observation.

It is not an issue because there is NO Gentiles or Jews.

We are one in Christ.

No dividing line, no reason to differentiate.

 

[vassal]

And if we are careful to obey all this law before the Lord our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness.” Deut6:25
Christ is the end of the law UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS for everyone who believeth Rom10:4
Bit tough for those who want an old covenant style religion

KJ21
And He said unto him, “Why callest thou Me good? There is none good but One, that is, God. But if thou wilt enter into Life, keep the commandments.” (Mattew 19:17)

too bad for you then.....good luck!

 

[Undergrace1]

KJ21
And He said unto him, “Why callest thou Me good? There is none good but One, that is, God. But if thou wilt enter into Life, keep the commandments.” (Mattew 19:17)

too bad for you then.....good luck!

Its such a pity you cannot understand a spiritual message. If its any consolation, a long time ago, I would have seen this the way you do now.
First off, Jesus lived under the old covenant in regard to Matt19:17
And according to Jesus himself, what he preached could be understood without the indwelling holy spirit.
If you refuse to accept Paul's core message, of not being under righteousness of obeying the law, why read any of his letters? Throw out half the books of the NT I guess:
The power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56
Sinfull passions are aroused in us by the law Rom7:5
Sin took occasion of one of the TC to arouse all manner of concupiscence in Saul Rom7:8
Therefore:
For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law/righteousness of obeying the law but under grace/righteousness of faith in Christ Rom6:14
The very opposite of what you believe happens is the result
Wouldn't you like to understand a spiritual message, or are you content with one that can be understood without the indwelling Holy Spirit?

 

[Qt]

I am isolating the simple gospel (Romans 10) from the pathetic works that Christians accomplish.

It says the word is in our heart and in our mouth and that is the word of faith in which we are to preach. For with the heart (this heart) man believeth unto (into) righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Can you answer the question please in relation to your continued quoting of rom ch2. Which law is a person to obey to prove they have justifying faith or is there none?

The answer is within the post that was sent to you.
What does Romans 10:6-9 say?
It says the word is in our heart and in our mouth and that is the word of faith in which we are to preach. For with the heart man believeth unto (into) righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Paul quoted Deut 30:10-14 there in Romans 10.

Why?

And what does Deut 30:10-14 say?

And what tense, present, past or future is it being spoken?

 

[Qt]

Sinfull passions are aroused in us by the law Rom7:5

Passions, what translation are you looking at? I am not a KJO. But here are all the occurrences of the word you translate passions. It is translated motions in the KJV in Rom 7:5. I do not like that either, considering it is translated affliction and suffering everywhere else.

Total KJV Occurrences: 16
• affections, 1
Gal 5:24

• afflictions, 3
2Tim 3:11; Heb 10:32; 1Pet 5:9

• motions, 1
Rom 7:5

• suffering, 1
Heb 2:9

• sufferings, 10
Rom 8:18; 2Cor 1:5; 2Cor 1:6; 2Cor 1:7; Phil 3:10; Col 1:24; Heb 2:10; 1Pet 1:11; 1Pet 4:13; 1Pet 5:1

 

[Qt]

Just show me once in the scripture where God states that the Gentiles are under the law.

Do not use inference.

Inference is the logical process of reaching a conclusion based on evidence, reasoning, or premises,
rather than direct observation.

We are not under the Law we are of the Law. For the Law, God's Word, His Spirit is in our heart and in our mind through Christ.

 

[Undergrace1]

It says the word is in our heart and in our mouth and that is the word of faith in which we are to preach. For with the heart (this heart) man believeth unto (into) righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
The answer is within the post that was sent to you.
What does Romans 10:6-9 say?
It says the word is in our heart and in our mouth and that is the word of faith in which we are to preach. For with the heart man believeth unto (into) righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Paul quoted Deut 30:10-14 there in Romans 10.

Why?

And what does Deut 30:10-14 say?

And what tense, present, past or future is it being spoken?

Just tell me if you believe all possible law that was handed down at Sania is applicable law for all believers today.
If you are reluctant to plainly state your belief concerning this, I will not engage you on the subject further