The Ten Commandments are the Covenant, did you know?

[TMS]

Here’s the important thing, who was more concerned about transgression of what is written in the TC, me with my views, or they with theirs?

The important thing is not comparing yourself with others. We are not saved by comparing ourselves.

The closer we come to Jesus the more we are able to reflect His image.

The image of Jesus is perfect righteousness. By surrendering self and allowing Jesus to live in us we will become like Jesus.

We can only serve one master
Self, the flesh, and lusts which the devil uses. OR Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.

 

[vassal]

Here is the faulty interpretation which you stated.

The Gentiles were never under the law of Moses ( true) and the Gentiles were not in covenant( false)

You contradicted yourself.

The law of Moses is the ten commandments plus other commandments in the Mt Sinai covenant.

The Gentiles did not sign the Mt Sinai covenant and therefore, were never under the law of Moses.

It is a powerful legal point that you are evading.

The Gentiles never knew God or the covenants.

The Gentiles had no knowledge of the ten commandments nor were they legally in covenant to
obey the ten commandments.

You confuse two things God Himself separated.

The Ten Commandments are NOT “the law of Moses.”
God calls the Ten Commandments the covenant.
The rest is explicitly called the law of Moses, given later and added for a reason.

Let God speak!

First, what God Himself calls the covenant:

(Exodus 34:28, KJV)
“…and he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.”

That settles it.!
God did not call sacrifices, rituals, or ordinances “the covenant.”
He called the Ten Commandments the covenant.

Now look carefully at this:

(Deuteronomy 5:22, KJV)
“These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount… and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.”

Added no more.
No rituals. No sacrifices. No ceremonies.

Now comes what you keep ignoring.

(Malachi 4:4, KJV)
“Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.”

So Scripture itself separates:
• The covenant God spoke and wrote
• The law of Moses with statutes and judgments

They are not the same thing.

Now to Gentiles.

You claim Gentiles had no knowledge of God, no law, no commandments. That is false.

(Romans 2:14–15, KJV)
“For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law… Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness…”

Gentiles were not under the Sinai covenant administration, true.
But they were never outside God’s moral law.

That law existed before Sinai.

(Genesis 26:5, KJV)
“Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.”

No Sinai yet.
No Moses yet.
Yet commandments, statutes, and laws already existed.

Sin existed before Sinai, and sin is defined by the commandments.

(1 John 3:4, KJV)
“Sin is the transgression of the law.”

You cannot have sin without law.

Gentiles were judged for sin long before Moses.

(Romans 1:18–20, KJV)
“…they are without excuse.”

Without excuse means accountable.

Now here is what completely destroys your “legal point.”

The law of Moses was added later.

(Galatians 3:19, KJV)
“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions…”

Added to what?
To something already existing.

That something is the covenant commandments.

And Jesus confirms exactly where judgment comes from.

(John 12:48, KJV)
“The word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”

Not Moses.
Not rituals.
Not ceremonies.

His words.

And what does Jesus teach?

(Matthew 19:17, KJV)
“…if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.”

That is not Sinai ritual law.
That is God’s eternal covenant standard.

So no, this is not a “powerful legal point.”
It is a misunderstanding built on ignoring what God Himself named, separated, and wrote.

The Ten Commandments are God’s covenant.
The law of Moses was added later.
Gentiles were always accountable to God’s moral law.
And Jesus will judge by His words, not by your categories.

Follow Jesus.
Listen to His voice.
Everything else is noise.

 

[vassal]

As a minister of fifty years stated:
''If we all followed after the Holy Spirit every minute of our lives we would never commit sin, the reality of which escapes us all''

A clear and intelligent reply could be:

If following the Holy Spirit removed all sin automatically, then Jesus would not have commanded us to watch, obey, endure, repent, and overcome. Scripture shows the Spirit leads, but we are still responsible to choose obedience. That is why Jesus said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15, KJV), and warned that many would hear yet not do. The problem is not the Spirit’s guidance, but the human heart resisting it.

 

[vassal]

You quoted the following verse.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus has conquered sin and death.

We have overcome, we are victorious, are saved, already perfect, through our Lord Jesus Christ.

the conclusion drawn from that verse is false.
Yes, Jesus conquered sin and death. That part is true.
But the leap that follows is where the error is.

“We have overcome, we are victorious, are saved, already perfect”​

That is not what Jesus taught. Not even close.
Jesus never said believers are already perfect.
Jesus never said obedience no longer matters.
Jesus never said the race is finished while we are still running it.
Here are Jesus’ own words, plain and simple.
Jesus said salvation is future, not automatic:

“But he who endures to the end shall be saved.”
Matthew 24:13​

If you are already saved in full, there would be nothing to “endure.”
Jesus said obedience still matters:

“If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
Matthew 19:17​

Jesus said victory is for those who overcome, not for everyone who claims it:

“To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne.”
Revelation 3:21​

You do not overcome something that is already finished in you.
Jesus said we are not yet perfect:

“Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation.”
Matthew 26:41​

Why warn people if they are already perfected and immune to failure?
The apostles who walked with Jesus taught the same thing.
Peter said:

“Make your call and election sure.”
2 Peter 1:10​

You do not “make sure” something that cannot be lost.
John said:

“He who says, ‘I know Him,’ and does not keep His commandments, is a liar.”
1 John 2:4​

If perfection were already complete, this warning would be meaningless.

So here is the truth, :
• Jesus won the victory.
• That victory is offered, not forced on anyone.
• We walk in it by faith, obedience, and endurance.
• Perfection comes at the resurrection, not while we still struggle in the flesh.
To claim “already perfect, already saved, already overcome” is not faith.
It is presumption, and Jesus warned against that more than once.
Victory belongs to Christ.
The crown belongs to those who finish the race.

 

[Undergrace1]

A clear and intelligent reply could be:

If following the Holy Spirit removed all sin automatically, then Jesus would not have commanded us to watch, obey, endure, repent, and overcome. Scripture shows the Spirit leads, but we are still responsible to choose obedience. That is why Jesus said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15, KJV), and warned that many would hear yet not do. The problem is not the Spirit’s guidance, but the human heart resisting it.

How many of Jesus commands in the gospels do you even try and keep?

 

[Undergrace1]

The important thing is not comparing yourself with others. We are not saved by comparing ourselves.

The closer we come to Jesus the more we are able to reflect His image.

The image of Jesus is perfect righteousness. By surrendering self and allowing Jesus to live in us we will become like Jesus.

We can only serve one master
Self, the flesh, and lusts which the devil uses. OR Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.

Oh it is a very important thing indeed. If those who keep insisting you must obey the TC, are those most flagrantly transgressing them with ease, there is something radically wrong with their form of christianity

 

[Undergrace1]

Don't look to people.
Look to Jesus. He is your golden standard.

Copy of Jesus and you can be sure that you are doing God's will. The word of God is given for .... 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Don't focus on people, the Spirit of God will guild you into all truth. Joh 16:13 KJV Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:

Jesus, the word, and the Holy Spirit will guild you not people.

Once again you miss the important point. If I who do not look to the TC for obedience, find myself shocked and stunned by the transgressions of those who do, I know they do not have the kind of christianity they should have. Im surprised you would not agree with me, bearing in mind your views where the TC are concerned

 

[Inquisitor]

the conclusion drawn from that verse is false.
Yes, Jesus conquered sin and death. That part is true.
But the leap that follows is where the error is.

“We have overcome, we are victorious, are saved, already perfect”​

That is not what Jesus taught. Not even close.
Jesus never said believers are already perfect.
Jesus never said obedience no longer matters.
Jesus never said the race is finished while we are still running it.
Here are Jesus’ own words, plain and simple.
Jesus said salvation is future, not automatic:

“But he who endures to the end shall be saved.”​

Matthew 24:13​

If you are already saved in full, there would be nothing to “endure.”
Jesus said obedience still matters:

“If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”​

Matthew 19:17​

Jesus said victory is for those who overcome, not for everyone who claims it:

“To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne.”​

Revelation 3:21​

You do not overcome something that is already finished in you.
Jesus said we are not yet perfect:

“Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation.”​

Matthew 26:41​

Why warn people if they are already perfected and immune to failure?
The apostles who walked with Jesus taught the same thing.
Peter said:

“Make your call and election sure.”​

2 Peter 1:10​

You do not “make sure” something that cannot be lost.
John said:

“He who says, ‘I know Him,’ and does not keep His commandments, is a liar.”​

1 John 2:4​

If perfection were already complete, this warning would be meaningless.

So here is the truth, :
• Jesus won the victory.
• That victory is offered, not forced on anyone.
• We walk in it by faith, obedience, and endurance.
• Perfection comes at the resurrection, not while we still struggle in the flesh.
To claim “already perfect, already saved, already overcome” is not faith.
It is presumption, and Jesus warned against that more than once.
Victory belongs to Christ.
The crown belongs to those who finish the race.

Unfortunately for you vassal you are still in opposition to Paul's simple gospel.

1 Corinthians 2:2
For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

You cannot accept what Paul said because it is the antithesis of everything you have been taught.

The endurance is in that faith in Jesus Christ.

We are already perfect in Christ and we accept that perfect righteousness as a gift.

Romans 5:17
For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive
the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Romans 9:30
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even
the righteousness which is by faith.

Romans 10:3
For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves
to the righteousness of God.

 

[Dino246]

I can't help but notice a push by some for Cheap Grace

By whom? Name them, and quote them.

Or admit that you're just throwing shade in a vain attempt to bolster your position.

 

[vassal]

Unfortunately for you vassal you are still in opposition to Paul's simple gospel.

1 Corinthians 2:2
For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

You cannot accept what Paul said because it is the antithesis of everything you have been taught.

The endurance is in that faith in Jesus Christ.

We are already perfect in Christ and we accept that perfect righteousness as a gift.

Romans 5:17
For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive
the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Romans 9:30
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even
the righteousness which is by faith.

Romans 10:3
For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves
to the righteousness of God.

I could also say you are in opposition to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.. You have to choose, Jesus is the only way to eternal life not Paul.

Here are Jesus’ own words that clearly teach that He alone is the way to eternal life. I will keep the language simple and clear, and I will quote from the ASV, using only Jesus’ words.

John 14:6 (ASV)
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 10:9 (ASV)
I am the door; by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and go out, and shall find pasture.

John 6:40 (ASV)
For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Matthew 7:13–14 (ASV)
Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction… For narrow is the gate, and straitened the way, that leadeth unto life, and few are they that find it.

John 8:12 (ASV)
Again therefore Jesus spake unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Eternal life comes only through Him.
There is one door, one way, one path to the Father, and that path is Jesus Himself.

 

[Inquisitor]

You confuse two things God Himself separated.

The Ten Commandments are NOT “the law of Moses.”
God calls the Ten Commandments the covenant.
The rest is explicitly called the law of Moses, given later and added for a reason.

Let God speak!

First, what God Himself calls the covenant:

(Exodus 34:28, KJV)
“…and he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.”

That settles it.!
God did not call sacrifices, rituals, or ordinances “the covenant.”
He called the Ten Commandments the covenant.

Now look carefully at this:

(Deuteronomy 5:22, KJV)
“These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount… and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.”

Added no more.
No rituals. No sacrifices. No ceremonies.

Now comes what you keep ignoring.

(Malachi 4:4, KJV)
“Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.”

So Scripture itself separates:
• The covenant God spoke and wrote
• The law of Moses with statutes and judgments

They are not the same thing.

Now to Gentiles.

You claim Gentiles had no knowledge of God, no law, no commandments. That is false.

(Romans 2:14–15, KJV)
“For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law… Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness…”

Gentiles were not under the Sinai covenant administration, true.
But they were never outside God’s moral law.

That law existed before Sinai.

(Genesis 26:5, KJV)
“Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.”

No Sinai yet.
No Moses yet.
Yet commandments, statutes, and laws already existed.

Sin existed before Sinai, and sin is defined by the commandments.

(1 John 3:4, KJV)
“Sin is the transgression of the law.”

You cannot have sin without law.

Gentiles were judged for sin long before Moses.

(Romans 1:18–20, KJV)
“…they are without excuse.”

Without excuse means accountable.

Now here is what completely destroys your “legal point.”

The law of Moses was added later.

(Galatians 3:19, KJV)
“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions…”

Added to what?
To something already existing.

That something is the covenant commandments.

And Jesus confirms exactly where judgment comes from.

(John 12:48, KJV)
“The word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”

Not Moses.
Not rituals.
Not ceremonies.

His words.

And what does Jesus teach?

(Matthew 19:17, KJV)
“…if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.”

That is not Sinai ritual law.
That is God’s eternal covenant standard.

So no, this is not a “powerful legal point.”
It is a misunderstanding built on ignoring what God Himself named, separated, and wrote.

The Ten Commandments are God’s covenant.
The law of Moses was added later.
Gentiles were always accountable to God’s moral law.
And Jesus will judge by His words, not by your categories.

Follow Jesus.
Listen to His voice.
Everything else is noise.

What are the two greatest commandments in the Torah?

Matthew 22:37-39
And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul,
and with all your mind.’ This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it,
‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’

You never mentioned the greatest of all the commandments!

Are the two greatest commandments in the (ceremonial) law?

Well, yes they are.

Do these two single commandments fulfill the entire law and the prophets?

Of course they do.

This is the most profound revelation in the N.T.

The two greatest commandments were fulfilled by Jesus and here they are below.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another,
just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.
We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

God is love.

Your need to complete Christianity 101.

 

[Inquisitor]

I could also say you are in opposition to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.. You have to choose, Jesus is the only way to eternal life not Paul.

Here are Jesus’ own words that clearly teach that He alone is the way to eternal life. I will keep the language simple and clear, and I will quote from the ASV, using only Jesus’ words.

John 14:6 (ASV)
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 10:9 (ASV)
I am the door; by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and go out, and shall find pasture.

John 6:40 (ASV)
For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Matthew 7:13–14 (ASV)
Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction… For narrow is the gate, and straitened the way, that leadeth unto life, and few are they that find it.

John 8:12 (ASV)
Again therefore Jesus spake unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Eternal life comes only through Him.
There is one door, one way, one path to the Father, and that path is Jesus Himself.

That's better vassal.

If your boasting in Christ and His righteousness and Christ crucified then you are on your way.

Boast in Christ.

Paul was the only apostle that stated the gospel in clear and simple terms (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

Paul was the only apostle to the Gentiles (Galatians 2:7).

Paul was the only apostle that described the church in detail (1 Corinthians).

Paul was the only apostle that listed the fruit of the Holy Spirit, the gifts, and ministries of the
Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12,13,14).

 

[vassal]

That's better vassal.

If your boasting in Christ and His righteousness and Christ crucified then you are on your way.

Boast in Christ.

Paul was the only apostle that stated the gospel in clear and simple terms (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

Paul was the only apostle to the Gentiles (Galatians 2:7).

Paul was the only apostle that described the church in detail (1 Corinthians).

Paul was the only apostle that listed the fruit of the Holy Spirit, the gifts, and ministries of the
Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12,13,14).

your reply is ridiculous

 

[vassal]

What are the two greatest commandments in the Torah?

Matthew 22:37-39
And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul,
and with all your mind.’ This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it,
‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’

You never mentioned the greatest of all the commandments!

Are the two greatest commandments in the (ceremonial) law?

Well, yes they are.

Do these two single commandments fulfill the entire law and the prophets?

Of course they do.

This is the most profound revelation in the N.T.

The two greatest commandments were fulfilled by Jesus and here they are below.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another,
just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.
We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

God is love.

Your need to complete Christianity 101.

good luck to you! you'll need it. goodbye!

 

[Mem]

But don't we need to be sorry, confess and repent before our sin is forgiven?

Has Jesus forgiven every sin committed or only the sins that have been confessed. ??

Because God honors our liberty, He cannot forgive us unless we want it (Josh. 24:15; Rev. 22:17). This is why God's forgiveness cannot be unconditional. Some people may not want forgiveness and God will not force them. He honors their liberty.

Esau, though he sought it with tears, found no room for repentance, and not for that there wasn't any provision for it toward him. He wanted the blessing but saw no room for repentance. What, exactly, was restricting the 'room' for him?

He noticed his blessing was missing, but did he have any trouble in seeing that his was present in him?
Perhaps it had something to do with the bitterness of losing it (for no reason that he could see) that blurred his vision of any chance of restoration.

 

[HigherGospel]

That is the formal statement of heresy!

Faith without works (corresponding action) is dead (not saving faith) - see James 2:14-26

Those that want to keep a little sinful behavior in their lives always claim works are not required even though God has ORDAINED His people to walk in good works:

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Sadly they claim God doesn't know what He's talking about.

 

[Inquisitor]

Faith without works (corresponding action) is dead (not saving faith) - see James 2:14-26

Those that want to keep a little sinful behavior in their lives always claim works are not required even though God has ORDAINED His people to walk in good works:

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Sadly they claim God doesn't know what He's talking about.

There is a difference between the gospel of Jesus Christ and your works.

They are not the same thing and not even close.

You can only be saved by believing in the gospel of Jesus Christ!

Your works are merely the perfection of that faith/belief/trust in Jesus Christ.

James 2:22
You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected.

We are built for good works.

But we only boast in Jesus Christ and not in a church, a theology, an opinion.

Without the Holy Spirit you are powerless to do anything at all.

Is a genuine faith in Jesus accompanied by the fruit, gifts, and ministries of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Inquisitor]

your reply is ridiculous

But true.

 

[HigherGospel]

There is a difference between the gospel of Jesus Christ and your works.

Once a person is born again, God has ordained that they walk in good works which is what being led by the Holy Spirit does thru a born again believer.

Those walking in bad works disqualify themselves from salvation because they are refusing to be led by the Spirit

Only those led by the Spirit are the sons of God (Romans 8:14)

Those claiming we can live after the flesh (sin) and still be saved are sadly speaking in behalf of their father the old devil and are being used by him to deceive people in to departing from the Lord.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we deny Him, He also will deny us

James 1:22
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

But we only boast in Jesus Christ and not in a church, a theology, an opinion.

Those boasting in Jesus Christ are the ones doing good works as the Holy Spirit is leading them to do.

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
(NOT in our own strength - see Philippians 4:13)

 

[HigherGospel]

There is a difference between the gospel of Jesus Christ and your works.

Once a person is born again, God has ordained that they walk in good works which is what being led by the Holy Spirit does thru a born again believer.

Those walking in bad works disqualify themselves from salvation because they are refusing to be led by the Spirit

Only those led by the Spirit are the sons of God (Romans 8:14)

Those claiming we can live after the flesh (sin) and still be saved are sadly speaking in behalf of their father the old devil and are being used by him to deceive people in to departing from the Lord.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we deny Him, He also will deny us

James 1:22
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

To claim God will accept a person without good works is claiming we can reject the Lord and still be saved which is in error

When one gets born again they are doing so by confessing Jesus as their Lord and Savior, believing Jesus is their Lord and Savior, and being led by the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ all of which are good works that the Holy Spirit empowers them to do once they choose to turn away from the power of the devil unto the power of God

Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

One cannot keep walking with the devil after the flesh being carnally minded and be saved.
That is denying the Lord - If we deny Him, He also will deny us (2 Timothy 2:12)

But we only boast in Jesus Christ and not in a church, a theology, an opinion.

Those boasting in Jesus Christ are the ones doing good works as the Holy Spirit is leading them to do.

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
(NOT in our own strength - see Philippians 4:13)