Acts 2:38 Comparison: Evangelical vs. Oneness / Baptismal-Regeneration View
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Let us examine what is happening here with scripture support. First off this is not a promise to all but was directed to the Apostles. This was fulfilled in Acts 2:4 and in a careful reading of the context of the chapter we find that it was only the Apostles that received this power. Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; Acts 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
It is the indwelling spirit that is promised to all and that the about three thousand souls received, Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Acts 2 says that it was the Apostles that got the power not the three thousand souls we must pay attention to the context of the text.
Here is where you are letting your bias get in the way. As i pointed out with scripture above the power to witness was not promised to all and in context to text the Apostles was he only said to have gotten it in Acts 2 while the remaining got the indwelling.
Yes the great commission is for all today even though it was originally given to the Apostles they passed it on to us to carry on but the power is not need no longer today because the word has been confirmed we must simply live by faith in what was delivered.
Yes the same thing as the great commission but no where is the power of witness promised to everyone that believes and Acts 2 bears this truth out. See above response .
[ quote] 2. In the Acts 19 account there was no initial reference to water baptism at all. If Paul believed that the Holy Ghost was received upon obedience to water baptism, why not just ask whether the group obeyed the command to be water baptized?
Paul’s question was specific, “Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed?
Paul’s question reveals belief alone is not a guarantee that the Holy Ghost has come to dwell inside a believer. The account also reveals the Holy Ghost is not received upon obedience to water baptism. It was after the 12 men were water baptized that Paul laid hands on them, and at that point they received the Holy Ghost. Note as well that Paul stayed in Ephesus with the newly born again believers 2-3 years witnessing the truth to others. So the idea that Paul laid hands on the men so they could witness while he journeyed on does not line up with scripture. [/quote] Here is here your train really derailed lets try to go over this carefully.
Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, ( Paul comes to Ephesus and finds disciples that Apollos made in chapter 18 )
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. ( Notice the text Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? ) ( they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost )
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. ( see right here is the tell tell text that everyone can't grasp. Paul is saying they should have received the indwelling spirit when the believed and was baptized just as they all preach Acts 2:38 but these were not baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for at the time Apollos taught them he only knew the baptism of John and that was what he baptized them with. Johns baptism could not give the indwelling spirit because it is only given in the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ because the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is into his death and resurrection ).
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. ( Got ahead of myself and already responded to this above )
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. ( so see the correct baptism is important because here Paul baptizes them correctly so the can receive the indwelling spirit that is the promise of Acts 2:38,39 )
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. ( this is not the indwelling Paul already dealt with that in verse 5 this is the power of Acts 1:8 and Mark 16:17-20 for the purpose stated in those text. Paul has to go and do the work of planting churches (spreading the gospel) so he transfer the power to these so that can grow this new church plant to free up Paul.
With all due respect my dear brother I feel you are missing the boat. Notice the difference. acts 2:4 was only the Apostles not the three thousand soul they did not get the spirit upon but the spirit with in the indwelling see verse 38 39
Acts 8 they did not get the out pouring but the apostles had to lay hands on them to transfer the power and also note that Philip had the power from the laying on of the Apostles hands see Acts 6 but he could not pass it on he had to call upon the Apostles to do it.
Act 10 was the finished outpouring on all flesh as Joel prophesied and was not a indwelling but the power upon to prove to the Jews that it was Gods will to add the gentiles to the kingdom. Please keep the context of text in order to understand what the text is revealing. After God poured the spirit UPON the gentiles Peter realized that it was Gods will that he baptize the gentile with the same baptism of Acts 2:38 for the reason text say it was for as in remission of sin and the giving of the indwelling spirit.. The indwelling spirit does NOT give the power it is only by the laying on of the Apostles hands other that Acts 2 and 10 as Peter said it happened to the gentiles as it did on the Apostles. That is the only time it happened to anyone in that way since the Apostles all other times the power was given it was only by the laying on of the Apostles hands. If I am wrong please show me my error with the scripture that proves it.
You are free to let your emotions rule your study but with a careful close study of the word I think you will find that the Gifts of power that the Apostles had are no longer needed if we take the scriptures at face value and they mean what they say when the reveal that the power gifts were for confirming the word and today the word has been confirmed so the power gifts served there intended purpose and are no longer needed. That is not to say that there are still spiritual gifts that are given but not miraculous gifts of power. Yes the spirit is still working in us to produce fruit to comfort us to strengthen our faith but not through the power gifts of witness. Also notice that the power gifts were only given past Acts 2 and 10 by the laying on of he Apostles hands and the Apostles are no longer with us today. We have to pay attention to what the text reveal in context for it to make sense and answer our questions but the bible will answer them if we allow it to do so.
You're entitled to believe as you will. But your allegation that emotions are ruling my study is far from the truth.
Brother I owe you an apology I should not have said you are controlled by emotions. That was immature of me and for that I humbly apologize. My question is do you think that the outpouring of the spirit that only happened in Acts 2:4 and Acts 10:44 were the promised indwelling of Acts 2:38,39? I will have follow up questions. Just realized I need to do less talking and more listening.
I accept your apology. Thank you.
As to the scriptures you reference they do pertain to the promised indwelling, but other scriptures reference this as well. (see noted scriptures below)
If you will recall Peter explained that what happened in the upper room directly related to Joel's prophesy. And Joel's prophecy indicates the experience is for all.
"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance....
these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
But THIS IS THAT which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Peter went on to explain:
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear." (Acts 2:4, 15:21, 33 (Joel 2:28))
Acts 2:4 "...they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."
Acts 8:17 - "Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost." Note verse 18, "And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given he offered them money."
Acts 10:44 - "While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them..." They heard them speak in tongues. verse 46.
Acts 19:6 - Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; (12 men) and they spake with tongues, and prophes:ied.
Peter revealed that the Gentiles had the same experience as they at Pentecost. (Acts 11:15) As such the experience referenced as falling on is in fact the same as being filled. This pertains to Acts 19:6-7 as well.
The above scripture parallel Peter's instructions in Acts 2:38. They include water baptism in Jesus' name and receiving the Holy Ghost as well.
May I ask how you explain that the happening of Acts 2:4 in context of the chapter indicates the that experience only happened to the Apostles and not the remaining three thousand souls that day. If you can show with scripture that it is not the case I would like to see please. I have more questions once you clear my mind with this one. Please stay in context of this chapter for the moment.
The precedent of what occurs upon being filled with the Holy Ghost was already set prior to the Acts 2:41 reference to the 3,000 souls being added. Scripture attests to the fact that every detail of a particular experience is not always recorded. In this case, including that the individuals spoke in tongues was not necessary.
Note a parallel between 2 Chronicles 5:12-14 and Acts 1:15-2:4. I believe the account in Chronicles shines light on how many were present when the glory of the Lord filled the His Temple(s) on the Day of Pentecost.
2 Chron 5:12-14
"..the Levites which were the singers, all of them of Asaph, of Heman, of Jeduthun, with their sons and their brethren, being arrayed in white linen, having cymbals and psalteries and harps, stood at the east end of the altar, and with them 120 priests sounding with trumpets
It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the Lord; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of musick, and praised the Lord, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the Lord;
So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the Lord had filled the house of God."
Acts 1:15-2:1-4
"And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an 120,)...
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."
1 Cor 3:16-17
"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."
Lastly, Jesus ascended to heaven 40 days after his resurrection (Acts 1:3). He commanded the disciples to wait in Jerusalem (Acts 1:4). The Holy Spirit descended on the day of Pentecost, which was 50 days after Passover/Resurrection (Acts 2:1).
This indicates the disciples spent approximately 10 days in constant prayer and unity (Acts 1:12-14). (Note the reference to unity in the 2 Chronicles scripture) And, Acts 1:15 reveals there were about 120 people, including the eleven apostles, Mary the mother of Jesus, his brothers, and other followers, all gathered together before the day of Pentecost. It was on the 10th day that they were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues (Acts 2:1-4).
What happened during the events that you are citing were physical supernatural manifestations that were witnessed by the public.The precedent of what occurs upon being filled with the Holy Ghost was already set prior to the Acts 2:41 reference to the 3,000 souls being added. Scripture attests to the fact that every detail of a particular experience is not always recorded. In this case, including that the individuals spoke in tongues was not necessary.
Note a parallel between 2 Chronicles 5:12-14 and Acts 1:15-2:4. I believe the account in Chronicles shines light on how many were present when the glory of the Lord filled the His Temple(s) on the Day of Pentecost.
2 Chron 5:12-14
"..the Levites which were the singers, all of them of Asaph, of Heman, of Jeduthun, with their sons and their brethren, being arrayed in white linen, having cymbals and psalteries and harps, stood at the east end of the altar, and with them 120 priests sounding with trumpets
It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the Lord; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of musick, and praised the Lord, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the Lord;
So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the Lord had filled the house of God."
Acts 1:15-2:1-4
"And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an 120,)...
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."
1 Cor 3:16-17
"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."
Lastly, Jesus ascended to heaven 40 days after his resurrection (Acts 1:3). He commanded the disciples to wait in Jerusalem (Acts 1:4). The Holy Spirit descended on the day of Pentecost, which was 50 days after Passover/Resurrection (Acts 2:1).
This indicates the disciples spent approximately 10 days in constant prayer and unity (Acts 1:12-14). (Note the reference to unity in the 2 Chronicles scripture) And, Acts 1:15 reveals there were about 120 people, including the eleven apostles, Mary the mother of Jesus, his brothers, and other followers, all gathered together before the day of Pentecost. It was on the 10th day that they were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues (Acts 2:1-4).
What is being presented today is most certainly not.
So who is wrong?
You or the Bible?
Next question, Why did Peter say they have received the Holy Ghost as well as we”speaking of Cornelius household? If this happened to all then it would have continued to be happening every time one was converted right,but Peter said it only happened here again since the time it happened to them. There were plenty of conversions in between but apparently not the accompanying tongues. The only time the reception of tongues accompanying is when the Apostles laid hands on so that would appear that your assumption needs to be rethought a little more I would assume. Could you have missed some key points?The precedent of what occurs upon being filled with the Holy Ghost was already set prior to the Acts 2:41 reference to the 3,000 souls being added. Scripture attests to the fact that every detail of a particular experience is not always recorded. In this case, including that the individuals spoke in tongues was not necessary.
Note a parallel between 2 Chronicles 5:12-14 and Acts 1:15-2:4. I believe the account in Chronicles shines light on how many were present when the glory of the Lord filled the His Temple(s) on the Day of Pentecost.
2 Chron 5:12-14
"..the Levites which were the singers, all of them of Asaph, of Heman, of Jeduthun, with their sons and their brethren, being arrayed in white linen, having cymbals and psalteries and harps, stood at the east end of the altar, and with them 120 priests sounding with trumpets
It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the Lord; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of musick, and praised the Lord, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the Lord;
So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the Lord had filled the house of God."
Acts 1:15-2:1-4
"And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an 120,)...
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."
1 Cor 3:16-17
"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."
Lastly, Jesus ascended to heaven 40 days after his resurrection (Acts 1:3). He commanded the disciples to wait in Jerusalem (Acts 1:4). The Holy Spirit descended on the day of Pentecost, which was 50 days after Passover/Resurrection (Acts 2:1).
This indicates the disciples spent approximately 10 days in constant prayer and unity (Acts 1:12-14). (Note the reference to unity in the 2 Chronicles scripture) And, Acts 1:15 reveals there were about 120 people, including the eleven apostles, Mary the mother of Jesus, his brothers, and other followers, all gathered together before the day of Pentecost. It was on the 10th day that they were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues (Acts 2:1-4).
This has always been the problem with Pentecostal beliefs.
They see supernatural manifestations in the New Testament and assume that they should still be occurring today. This is the error that they are blind to. Appealing to scripture to support something that is not happening is absurd.
I have seen this same appeal from flat-earthers. They will insist that the Bible supports a flat earth and demand from the other side a biblically supported discourse on why they should accept a round earth.
The Flat Earth Bible by Kenny Williamson is an example of such thinking.
Just as the supernatural manifestation of manna from heaven ceased without warning so too has tongues.
I do not know when tongues ceased but I know that they have ceased.
I agree there had to have been many conversions in between Pentecost and the first Gentile conversion. However, the bible is silent concerning them with the exception of two; the Samaritan account in Acts 8:12-18, and Paul's experience recorded in Acts 9:17. In the case of the Samaritans it is confirmed that evidence accompanied the infilling. And although Acts 9:17 does not specifically mention tongues we do know that Paul did speak in tongues. (1 Cor. 14:2)
You stated that Peter said tongues only happened again (Acts 10) since the time it happened to the Jews. (Acts 2) This is not a true statement. Peter was explaining to fellow Jews that the experience God initiated at Pentecost was now available to Gentiles as well.
Acts 11:15-18
"And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life."
Brother with all due respect the events of Acts 2:4 and Acts 10:44 are not the same as of Acts 8 Acts 6 and Acts 19 that should be a red flag in your assumption. In Acts 2 & 10 the spirit came upon them directly and seems to be the only 2 recorded events of this method but in Acts 6,8,& 19 it was transferred by the laying on of the Apostles hands. That is not the same event as of Acts 2 & 10. It did not come from any baptism but by laying on of hands. It did not come directly from the the spirit but by laying on of hands. The laying on of hands only happened after they were baptized in the name of Christ to wash away their sin and receive the indwelling spirit. It was never before baptism and the Acts 2 &10 event was a fulfillment of prophesy and only happened in that manner only twice. The bible is clear on this why do you not see this. Also note that after the original outpouring the only way it is recorded is by laying on of the Apostles hand not even Philip could transfer it even though he had the power so then it only stands to be clear that it is no longer for today being the Apostles are long gone. Please let the scriptures do the talking.
Consider the following:
"Scholars and theologians generally agree that the delay in receiving the Holy Ghost was a deliberate, divine, or administrative decision to ensure the unity of the early church and to validate the Samaritans' conversion to the Jewish apostles. The primary consensus is that the Holy Spirit was withheld until Peter and John—holding the "keys" to the kingdom—arrived to formally recognize the Samaritans as part of the new covenant community.
Key perspectives on why Philip could not, or did not facilitate this include:
Apostolic Authority and Unity: The Samaritans were despised "half-breeds" by many Jews. To avoid a schism where the Samaritans might have formed a separate, rival church, God waited for the apostles from Jerusalem (Peter and John) to lay hands on them, unifying the Samaritan church with the Jewish church.
Validation of the Mission: The apostles needed to witness this event to verify that the gospel truly was for the Samaritans, breaking down longstanding ethnic barriers.
The "Keys" to the Kingdom: As Jesus gave Peter the "keys" to open the kingdom, this event functioned similarly to Pentecost for the Jews and later for the Gentiles (Acts 10).
Limitation of Philip's Office: As one of the Seven (often identified as a deacon), Philip had the authority to preach and baptize, but not necessarily to impart the Holy Spirit via the laying on of hands, which was viewed as an apostolic prerogative at that specific time.
It is rarely suggested that Philip was lacking in faith, but rather that the restriction was a strategic move in the history of redemption." Internet excerpt
Scripture reveals the idea that the apostles were the only ones used to assist people to receive the Holy Ghost is not accurate. Consider Ananias. Scripture reveals Ananias was a disciple from Damascus who was sent directly by God to assist Saul (Paul) in receiving the Holy Ghost. (Acts 9:10)
A few things are established through the Acts 9 account:
1. At some point Ananias had been filled with the Holy Ghost himself.
2. Disciples can be used to assist those who are destined to operate in any ministry office, even apostles such as Saul/Paul. (Eph. 4:11)
3. Saul who later became the Apostle Paul received the Holy Ghost at the laying on of hands (Acts 9:17-18)
4. The original Apostles did begin the practice of assisting others to receive the Holy Ghost. But the practice was not limited to them, it was passed on to their disciples, and their disciples passed it on, and so on.
What makes you so sure that tongues have ceased?
Consider that the last detailed account of individuals receiving the Holy Ghost is recorded in Acts 19:1-7. The experience included twelve men and happened 20+ years after the initial outpouring at Pentecost. (Acts 2:4) In the account, after being filled with the Holy Ghost all twelve spoke in tongues and prophesied. As such, the account provides confirmation that nothing changed; tongues continues to be the sign a person has received the Holy Ghost.
What makes you so sure that tongues have not ceased?
Consider that the Bible states that at some point in time that tongues will cease, 1st Cor. 13:8.
Consider that no one today speaks in this supernatural manner.
It is fair to say that tongues ended at some unknown moment in the past.
Just like manna simply ceased to fall, so too has tongues.
This lines up with scripture much more then believing that tongues is somehow still going on today.