Do you know what your protesting

[rewriter]

yep I agree with that, thats the real issue I guess, that there doctrines could be satanic

And a house divided against itself shall not stand. The RCC has an excellent reputation in resolving demonic possession, especially when there is psychiatric evidence of some issue with no explicable scientific basis for what is being observed.

If the RCC is following satanic doctrine, Satan is working against himself. Now if it is a divergent Christian doctrine, then there is no issue as to how they can be effective against the demonic.

 

[rewriter]

well I question the RCC understanding of grace, RC Sproul whom I believe because I really don't think he's about himself, he was a teacher for years and he's a lovely man , he says the RCC are very careful to say that grace isn't a material, but they make out grace is some of kind of substance that can reside in the soul that can either decrease or increase.

Where as our reformed faith believe grace is an action of God that saves us.

I would like to know where the RCC gets there understanding.

I am not certain where the RCC gets all their doctrines, but many Protestants maintain that while grace comes from God, it takes an act of faith to receive it, which is also a questionable doctrine because that implies that the believer takes an action, responding in faith, to the receipt of grace which could be seen as a "work".

Doctrine can ger really sticky if one is not careful.

 

[Jordon]

I am not certain where the RCC gets all their doctrines, but many Protestants maintain that while grace comes from God, it takes an act of faith to receive it, which is also a questionable doctrine because that implies that the believer takes an action, responding in faith, to the receipt of grace which could be seen as a "work".

Doctrine can ger really sticky if one is not careful.

The word we have which we have is to whom he called he justified.

You have to see you where Justified whilst being under call,

The inner calling, think of the light inside lighten you up inside whilst you make the decision

 

[Citizen]




...Matthew appears to be largely dependent on Mark, so not reliable either and Paul is ambiguous as to just what he saw when he saw the risen Christ. Such is the evidence against a physical resurrection being unambiguous but in favor of it being supported only by faith.

Do you not believe or accept the Bible is reliable?

 

[Citizen]

I would like to know where the RCC gets there understanding.

Great question. Did you happen to see my post #44? This key RCC doctrine explains a lot -

RCC Catechism 82: As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."

In the RCC, tradition is equal to divinely inspired scripture. They can therefore claim any new 'truth' they want through tradition and apart from scripture. What does God say? -

Rom 16:25 Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey Him.

Col 1:25 I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness - 26 the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints.

2 Thess 2:13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

The truth was revealed IN FULL, spoken and written for us in the Bible. There is no new divine 'truths' or revelation outside the Bible. We either believe this or we don't -

Prov 30:5 Every word of God is flawless; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. 6 Do not add to His words, or He will rebuke you and prove you a liar.

Best way to determine truth is to dig into church doctrine, and then compare/contrast to scripture.

 

[Jordon]

I guess I'm a 'rejectivist'. From official RCC doctrine & beliefs [link], I reject the following -

SALVATION THROUGH WORKS
Council of Trent, sixth session, Decree on Justification, Canon 9 
If any one says that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema. 



Council of Trent, sixth session, Decree on Justification, Canon 24 
If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema. 



RCC Catechism 2027: No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods. 


SALVATION THROUGH MEANS OTHER THAN JESUS CHRIST [UNIVERSALISM]: 

RCC Catechism 841: The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

RCC Catechism 

847: This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: 
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. 


MEDIATION AND SALVATION THROUGH MARY [yes, this is still in the catechism]
RCC Catechism 969: "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.

PURIFIED THROUGH PURGATORY, NOT CHRIST
Council of Trent, 6th session, canon 30: If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema.

RCC Catechism 1030: All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

RCC Catechism 1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire.

TRADITION EQUAL TO SCRIPTURE
RCC Catechism 82: As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."

POPE IS 'SWEET CHRIST ON EARTH'
The Message of Fatima, Introduction: The twentieth century was one of the most crucial in human history, with its tragic and cruel events culminating in the assassination attempt on the “sweet Christ on earth”.

Apostolic Exhortation Vita Consecrata, Pope John Paul II, March 25, 1996: Against this background of love towards Holy Church, "the pillar and bulwark of the truth" (1 Tim 3:15), we readily understand the devotion of Saint Francis of Assisi for "the Lord Pope", the daughterly outspokenness of Saint Catherine of Siena towards the one whom she called "sweet Christ on earth"

Apostolic letter, Pope John Paul II, Oct 1999: “And strengthened by her intimacy with Christ, the Saint of Siena was not afraid to point out frankly even to the Pope, whom she loved dearly as her “sweet Christ on earth”…”

Pointing out all of the above [and I'm merely scratching the surface] is not unkindness, so I hope you don't take it that way. It's just fact. There is no way to reconcile the RCC to the Bible. It is completely contrary. The great divide exists for a very real and valid reason.

wow so where to be seen as anathema if we believe where Justified by faith

Which means Where' to be hated

Is that rule still in place ?

I think RC sproul has mentioned this, somewhere I'll see if I can find the sermon.

 

[Citizen]

wow so where to be seen as anathema if we believe where Justified by faith

Which means Where' to be hated

Is that rule still in place ?

I think RC sproul has mentioned this, somewhere I'll see if I can find the sermon.

Yes, everything I posted is still taught by the RCC and in effect. They've never recanted the Council of Trent. You can find all of it on the official Vatican website.

 

[Jordon]

I guess I'm a 'rejectivist'. From official RCC doctrine & beliefs [link], I reject the following -

SALVATION THROUGH WORKS
Council of Trent, sixth session, Decree on Justification, Canon 9 
If any one says that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema. 



Council of Trent, sixth session, Decree on Justification, Canon 24 
If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema. 



RCC Catechism 2027: No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods. 


right so it point blank says here, grace is a substance that can be increased or decreased and if we don't believe it where to be hated.

It's totally out of order

 

[Jordon]

Yes, everything I posted is still taught by the RCC and in effect. They've never recanted the Council of Trent. You can find all of it on the official Vatican website.

I knew RC Sproul was telling the truth this just confirms it.

I wonder how many people here are not telling us there catholics ? There sure does seem to be lot of hatred aimed at us over this council of Trent.

which looks like the council of Trent rules as to why.

 

[Jordon]

Protestantism is an outdated monicker. It might have been useful during the renaissance, but unless you live in a state controlled, or heavily influenced by the catholic church, it really doesn't matter. Few people emphasize the "Catholic vs. Protestant" dichotomy anymore... it's mostly just catholics, who are in a round about way asking "do you still deny my authority?" To, which most "protestants" would be like "Who are you again?"

they don't debate it anymore i'm not sure what world you live in.

It's debated in nearly every debate here regarding salvation in many ways, you need your eyes opening I think.

Catholic theology is discussed here everyday along with the protesting views of there theology by people who don't even know and do know , and it's aldo discussed in many others ways to, such as people hating you for your beliefs from twisted Catholic doctrine wrongly accusing our faith, and miss representing faith,

I must have been a sleep for last 3 months if what you say is true.

Err I don't think so

 

[Jordon]

I agree, the fundamental realization of Martin Luther that led to the Protestant Reformation and realization of the RCC being Anti-Christ, was "Justification by Faith" rather than the RCC's salvation by works and money. Along with the RCC replacing Jesus as our mediator with Mary and their priests in a box, which is blasphemy, claiming the prerogatives of God

... actually taking Jesus out of the picture, (anti-Christ) and corruption of the Gospel, eg. Sunday Sabbath, the state of the dead, purgatory, justification by works, the sanctuary message, the Pope claiming to be God on earth, "Alter Christus, of priests =( Another Christ), etc,etc. Literally a pagonized (spirit of Satan) Christianity. The papacy changed the law of God, God's 10 Commandments and his biblical (times) prophecies. Altering the understanding of Bible Prophecy. to align with their theological doctrines, IE, Pre-trib Rapture.
Daniel 7:25 states that the Anti-Christ will "think to change times and laws,"



We "Christ believing Christians, believing Christ when he pointed out the Papacy as Antichrist, the agent of Satan, in conjunction with the "False Prophet" of Rev 13. "The Dragon, The Antichrist & The False Prophet"

I don't see Catholicism, as " faith founded on the Bible, but as faith in the Pope as god, and HIS WORD, Satan's agent on Earth, just as Satan, is the spiritual Lord of this world, for believers of the anti-Christ.

Of course, this is a deception by Satan, deceiving the millions of Catholics, who are not reading their Bibles for themselves, but believing what Priest are telling them.


In Revelation 17:5, the "mother of harlots" is described as Babylon, symbolizing an apostate religious system that has led nations into sin through her false teachings and oppressive actions. The Catholic Church, particularly because of its historical role in enforcing doctrines that deviated from biblical teachings and its unholy alliance with political powers.

• Spiritual Babylon: The early Christian church, under persecution from Rome, often referred to the city of Rome as Babylon. Over time, the church of Rome became associated with this term due to its apostasy and the persecution of true believers. The Catholic Church's teachings, such as its claim to modify divine law (e.g., changing the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday), align with the corrupt practices described in the book of Revelation .
• 
  
• Doctrine of the Papacy: Christ Believers view the papacy as the "man of sin" or "man of lawlessness" described in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4. This figure is associated with the claim of supremacy over all Christians and the assertion of infallibility, both of which conflict with the teachings of Christ and the authority of the Scriptures. The papacy’s role in persecuting those who disagreed with its doctrines is seen as the fulfillment of the prophetic warnings of Revelation.
• 
  
• The Fall of Babylon: In Revelation 14:8, it is prophesied that Babylon has fallen because she has caused the nations to drink of the wine of her fornication, representing her false teachings and the church’s illicit relationship with the state. This prophecy refers to the Catholic Church’s corrupt practices and its eventual downfall, which is linked to the final crisis of true worship. The message in Revelation 18:4, calling God's people to come out of Babylon, is seen as an appeal to separate from the false teachings of the Catholic Church and other apostate religious systems ( IE. Futurism & Dispensationalism )
• 
  
• Historical Persecution: The 1260 years of persecution ( 42 months of years) during which the papacy used both ecclesiastical and political power to oppress dissenters. This period is often linked to the "beast" of Revelation, a system of church-state union that sought to enforce its decrees globally. The fall of Babylon is seen as both a spiritual and physical event, wherein the true followers of Christ are urged to resist this apostasy and stand firm for God’s Word.
• 
  
• This can be seen TODAY as the Catholic Church, is uniting Church and State, to fulfill her prophesied "Image of the Beast" of
• Revelation 13:15 (KJV) which states:
  “And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause (legislation) that as many as would not worship the image ( Sunday worship) of the beast should be killed.”
• 
  
• The Papacy aligns with the prophetic symbols of Babylon and the Whore of Babylon. These teachings, steeped in historical apostasy and persecution, are seen as fulfilling the prophecies of Revelation, calling for believers to reject false systems, false doctrines, eg. Sunday worship, etc and adhere strictly to biblical truth.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++​

you may well be right after reading the stoke on Trent doctrine.

Who knows tho, I don't know which way to go with it,

But one thing is clear, there hatred is also over this forum.

They use to burn people at the stake to.

So they may be some evil that's entered there church at one time like that whore of babylon you mentioned, whatever that is, I'm not familiar with it sorry, I thought you was being daft.

 

[Citizen]

right so it point blank says here, grace is a substance that can be increased or decreased and if we don't believe it where to be hated.

It's totally out of order

Yeah, it's all a problematic works-based house of cards, falsehoods built upon falsehoods. We're considered accursed if we reject RCC doctrine, and that's fine. I'll stick with the Bible.

 

[Jordon]

Yeah, it's all a problematic works-based house of cards, falsehoods built upon falsehoods. We're considered accursed if we reject RCC doctrine, and that's fine. I'll stick with the Bible.

well that in itself shows you there not doing as the word commands which is to love, even if it means loving your enemy. So what increase of grace do there catholics get for hating people of the reformed faith, let me guess merit increase in grace ?

And does that merit go as far as having us hated as much as possible in the name of lord, like saying it's us reformed who only believe special people people get elected and nobody else, like the way they make out where Calvinistic pigs,

Ive got one Catholic here in this forum calling me a pig to, many calling me this calvinist thing.

They claim untruths of John Calvin that's only true of themselves to.

So I wonder if it's case with these catholics that they think in there head, they get more merit for having us hated by whatever means possible ?

 

[Jordon]

Yeah, it's all a problematic works-based house of cards, falsehoods built upon falsehoods. We're considered accursed if we reject RCC doctrine, and that's fine. I'll stick with the Bible.

found a short one 6 mins clearly tells us about the anathema. 



Catholic declaration to inform Catholics to detest the reformed faith for those who don't know, this is just the first part it gets worse


Council of Trent, sixth session, Decree on Justification, Canon 9 
If any one says that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema. 



Anathema means to hate people of the reformed faith. Who believe justified by faith alone.

 

[Jordon]

Coherent?
You mean how every single one of them build their theology on the mistranslated words believe, believer, and believing?

It's Coherent only in respect to the wide path that Jesus warned us about.

well another question I must ask is faith a theological concept rather than a material.

In a theological concept as in dealing with trust conviction and ones relationship with God and spiritual truth.

Hebrews 11:1

Then theres Hebrews 13:1

 

[Jordon]

You don't even acknowledge the true meaning of faith and faithing exists yet, am I wrong?

im not sure faithing is a standard word,

Is it faith proofing ?

 

[Rob7]

Who knows tho, I don't know which way to go with it,
But one thing is clear, there hatred is also over this forum.
They use to burn people at the stake to.

So they may be some evil that's entered there church at one time like that whore of babylon you mentioned, whatever that is, I'm not familiar with it sorry, I thought you was being daft.

You need to understand Jordon, that I am an Adventist Christian.
Seventh-day Adventists, understand our movement as the prophetic continuation and culmination of the Protestant Reformation, while apostate protestants are returning to the world's "mother church", in Rome, and her doctrines of Biblical corruption & blasphemy towards our God.

The original Reformers recovered the central truth of salvation by faith alone (sola fide) and the supreme authority of Scripture (sola Scriptura). Adventists believe that key biblical truths, obscured during the Great Apostasy, ( The prophesied 1260 years of Papal supremacy ) are to be fully restored in these last days of Earth's history, this "time of the end", right before Christ's Return, with Judgement.

The world has been the arena of a great controversy between Christ and Satan since the fall of humanity. This conflict is both spiritual and physical, manifesting as a war between righteousness and unrighteousness, truth and deception. Satan, in his rebellion against God, seeks to usurp divine authority and distort God's character and law.

This spiritual war directly parallels the corruption of religious systems throughout history. As depicted in biblical prophecy (particularly in Daniel and Revelation), Satan has worked through earthly powers to oppose God's plan. The rise of the "man of lawlessness" (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) finds its culmination in a system that exalts itself above God, specifically through the development of the Roman Catholic Papacy as the Antichrist power. This system, identified as "Babylon" in Revelation, has historically corrupted core truths of God's plan of salvation over these last 2000 years.

A central deception, is the attack on God's law—specifically the negation and alteration of His Ten Commandments. By undermining the Sabbath commandment (changing the day of worship from the seventh day to the first) and promoting tradition above Scripture, this system leads many into unconscious disobedience. Ellen White, a primary founder of Adventism and the Adventist pioneers, taught that disobedience to God's law is, in essence, allegiance to Satan's counterfeit authority, accepted by humanity, at the Fall, in Eden.

Thus, the great deception is that many are led away from "believing and following Jesus and His Righteousness"—the only path to salvation. The call, therefore, is to come out of spiritual Babylon ( Revelation 18:4 ), to worship God as Creator by honoring His commandments (including the true Sabbath), and to cling solely to the righteousness of Christ for salvation. Failure to do so, by remaining in deceived disobedience, results in the loss of the soul's inheritance of eternal life with Jesus. The conflict ends only when Christ returns, sin is eradicated, and God's faithful people, who have kept "the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12), are redeemed, unto Eternal Life. Amen !

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++​

 

[Jordon]

I'm not a member of the reformed movement. And I'm not sure what you are ferring to when you ask "where does that put us". What is "that"?

what is a reformed movement ?

 

[Jordon]

You need to understand Jordon, that I am an Adventist Christian.
Seventh-day Adventists, understand our movement as the prophetic continuation and culmination of the Protestant Reformation, while apostate protestants are returning to the world's "mother church", in Rome, and her doctrines of Biblical corruption & blasphemy towards our God.

The original Reformers recovered the central truth of salvation by faith alone (sola fide) and the supreme authority of Scripture (sola Scriptura). Adventists believe that key biblical truths, obscured during the Great Apostasy, ( The prophesied 1260 years of Papal supremacy ) are to be fully restored in these last days of Earth's history, this "time of the end", right before Christ's Return, with Judgement.

The world has been the arena of a great controversy between Christ and Satan since the fall of humanity. This conflict is both spiritual and physical, manifesting as a war between righteousness and unrighteousness, truth and deception. Satan, in his rebellion against God, seeks to usurp divine authority and distort God's character and law.

This spiritual war directly parallels the corruption of religious systems throughout history. As depicted in biblical prophecy (particularly in Daniel and Revelation), Satan has worked through earthly powers to oppose God's plan. The rise of the "man of lawlessness" (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) finds its culmination in a system that exalts itself above God, specifically through the development of the Roman Catholic Papacy as the Antichrist power. This system, identified as "Babylon" in Revelation, has historically corrupted core truths of God's plan of salvation over these last 2000 years.

A central deception, is the attack on God's law—specifically the negation and alteration of His Ten Commandments. By undermining the Sabbath commandment (changing the day of worship from the seventh day to the first) and promoting tradition above Scripture, this system leads many into unconscious disobedience. Ellen White, a primary founder of Adventism and the Adventist pioneers, taught that disobedience to God's law is, in essence, allegiance to Satan's counterfeit authority, accepted by humanity, at the Fall, in Eden.

Thus, the great deception is that many are led away from "believing and following Jesus and His Righteousness"—the only path to salvation. The call, therefore, is to come out of spiritual Babylon ( Revelation 18:4 ), to worship God as Creator by honoring His commandments (including the true Sabbath), and to cling solely to the righteousness of Christ for salvation. Failure to do so, by remaining in deceived disobedience, results in the loss of the soul's inheritance of eternal life with Jesus. The conflict ends only when Christ returns, sin is eradicated, and God's faithful people, who have kept "the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12), are redeemed, unto Eternal Life. Amen !

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++​

could you define an apostate protestant in your understanding please.

What's the qualifications basically

 

[Jordon]

I'm protesting this chorizo and egg burrito I just ate. I think the tortilla was exprired....

have you managed to regurgitate it