Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Jordon]

Wonderful passages.

So what then if you (supposedly) have love but zero accurate doctrine to proclaim as regards salvation? I mean totally dead wrong don't know it can't teach it?

For example teaching salvation by lottery ticket vs salvation by shed Blood?

well I believe I asked a reasonable question, but instead of asking people whom i sense they would not answer, or if they did, they would find an excuse to dismiss the question, I ask somebody whom I kind of knew would give an answer with at least at the least the acknowledgment of the question .

So I do wonder why it is we need understanding in the first place, when we wake up each morning and we have difficulties to have a motivation, or even sometimes a reason for even living

 

[cv5]

1)Do you think God is more worried about how many hours we read our bibles or how we are loving one another?
2) Biblical doctrine is completely worthless if it’s not based on God who is Love. Love also being His two greatest commandments to us.

1) He is concerned about both. This is Biblical BTW. Either standing alone is severely compromised.
2) Biblical doctrine IS LOVE. Biblical doctrine is literally God's word of love toward men. Among other things.

But it is knowing doctrine and then teaching it (in love) that constitutes the Great Commission.
What did Jesus do exactly for 3.5 years with the Apostles? TEACHING THEM about Himself and His ways first and foremost.
What was Paul doing for 20 odd years in Synagogues everywhere and the school of Tyrannus and every place everywhere he went?
TEACHING and persuading that Jesus is the Christ.

What was one of the FIRST THINGS (probably third) the risen Christ does? Can you guess?
TEACHING!

Luk 24:25
Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

Luk 24:26
Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

Luk 24:27
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

*********************************************************************

This infantile attitude of despising/denying/avoiding teaching and teachers and ignoring the responsibility (due to laziness, heedlessness and irresponsibility) to rightly divide the truth is great folly IMO.

Time for everybody to grow up and get past group hugs and pablum and get out there and LEARN and TEACH and PREACH
thereby fulfilling the Great Commission.

Mat 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Mat 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Mat 28:20
Teaching them to observe all things (DOCTRINE) whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

 

[cv5]

well I believe I asked a reasonable question, but instead of asking people whom i sense they would not answer, or if they did, they would find an excuse to dismiss the question, I ask somebody whom I kind of knew would give an answer with at least at the least the acknowledgment of the question .

So I do wonder why it is we need understanding in the first place, when we wake up each morning and we have difficulties to have a motivation, or even sometimes a reason for even living

I asked a reasonable question

Is it reasonable for you to reply using actual Scriptural support and exegetical treatments?
You do realize that this is the primary mandate and intended function of this website correct?

 

[Jordon]

1) He is concerned about both. This is Biblical BTW. Either standing alone is severely compromised.
2) Biblical doctrine IS LOVE. Biblical doctrine is literally God's word of love toward men. Among other things.

But it is knowing doctrine and then teaching it (in love) that constitutes the Great Commission.
What did Jesus do exactly for 3.5 years with the Apostles? TEACHING THEM about Himself and His ways first and foremost.
What was Paul doing for 20 odd years in Synagogues everywhere and the school of Tyrannus and every place everywhere he went?
TEACHING and persuading that Jesus is the Christ.

What was one of the FIRST THINGS (probably third) the risen Christ does? Can you guess?
TEACHING!

Luk 24:25
Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

Luk 24:26
Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

Luk 24:27
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

*********************************************************************

This infantile attitude of despising/denying/avoiding teaching and teachers and ignoring the responsibility (due to laziness, heedlessness and irresponsibility) to rightly divide the truth is great folly IMO.

Time for everybody to grow up and get past group hugs and pablum and get out there and LEARN and TEACH and PREACH
thereby fulfilling the Great Commission.

Mat 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Mat 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Mat 28:20
Teaching them to observe all things (DOCTRINE) whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

It's funny that the main leader of this new church, first said to Jesus get away from me , and Jesus refused.

I wonder if mans will was seen as something that had the intelligence to fully understand, would he have said get away from me in the first place to the lord.

But then I wonder if because mans will isn't that intelligent, that Jesus said no for this very reason your right to choose to tell me to get away from you,.is not going to happen that easily

 

[cv5]

It's funny that the main leader of this new church, first said to Jesus get away from me , and Jesus refused.

I wonder if mans will was seen as something that had the intelligence to fully understand, would he have said get away from me in the first place to the lord.

But then I wonder if because mans will isn't that intelligent, that Jesus said no for this very reason your right to choose to tell me to get away from you,.is not going to happen that easily

Here is advice from your Lord Jesus Himself.
Of course you may dispose of it as you see fit according to your own free will, your own desire.

[Luk 24:44-48 KJV]
44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.

(ARE YOU ABLE TO PREACH THIS SAME MESSAGE?)

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

(DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE SCRIPTURES?)

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

(WRITTEN WHERE?)

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

(CAN YOU HELP IN ANY WAY? PLEASE DO IF YOU ARE ABLE)

48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

(BE A WITNESS NOT A WHINER)

 

[Jackson129]

If his words are so egregious to you why do you keep responding? Walk away.

Got to play out a precieved insult for all its.worth

 

[Mem]

@cv5

 

[HeIsHere]

Me loving the Lord is the only reason I love you and all others. Before I came to Christ I would have given you an address of where to meet me for speaking to me or others in the way you have. Guess He changes us all in different ways. Not sure where you get that I despise anyone. All I’ve said is that we should teach in a loving patient way and not in a sarcastic rude hateful way. I figure anyone following Jesus could see that should be the case. And that someone acting on His commandments impresses me rather than someone that just knows of His commandments. Knowing about God is completely different than knowing God. I don’t pity myself but rather I pity those that haven’t learned to love themselves, others, and most importantly God.

Just a few thoughts on your posts, while I agree with some parts, I think perhaps consider a different perspective.

We love others because He first loved us, it is His love in us that enables us to love others unconditionally.

But I also think that there is this tendency to create a dichotomy where there isn't one.

@Just_A__Follower wrote:

Knowing about God is completely different than knowing God.


Yet when does not preclude the other.

Both are important, so we should not discount the Bible scholar who is a servant of God and seeks to provide an academic Biblical perspective. The church has done itself a great disservice by "dumbing" itself down over the years. In fact there is an excellent book called the "Scandal of the Evangelical Mind" written in 1990's and it is even worse now.

But the one with strong mind can fall prey to intellectual pride, this is not a good look for the church, I agree.

As well, God is for every person, of every level of intelligence and understanding. So even those who may not grasp the more complex concepts can still just have a very intimate profound knowledge of God, as well.
Having stated this when a person lacks discernment, or if they are more carnally minded, looking for external manifestations, like ecstatic speech, they seem to be more vulnerable to false doctrine.

I am rethinking this and think both are important.

 

[cv5]

Just a few thoughts on your posts, while I agree with some parts, I think perhaps consider a different perspective.

We love others because He first loved us, it is His love in us that enables us to love others unconditionally.

But I also think that there is this tendency to create a dichotomy where there isn't one.

@Just_A__Follower wrote:

Knowing about God is completely different than knowing God.


Yet when does not preclude the other.

Both are important, so we should not discount the Bible scholar who is a servant of God and seeks to provide an academic Biblical perspective. The church has done itself a great disservice by "dumbing" itself down over the years. In fact there is an excellent book called the "Scandal of the Evangelical Mind" written in 1990's and it is even worse now.

But the one with strong mind can fall prey to intellectual pride, this is not a good look for the church, I agree.

As well, God is for every person, of every level of intelligence and understanding. So even those who may not grasp the more complex concepts can still just have a very intimate profound knowledge of God, as well.
Having stated this when a person lacks discernment, or if they are more carnally minded, looking for external manifestations, like ecstatic speech, they seem to be more vulnerable to false doctrine.

I am rethinking this and think both are important.

The church has done itself a great disservice by "dumbing" itself down over the years.

The “Inspirational Prosperity Christianity” Churches depend upon this invaluable ingredient to maximize $$$cash flow$$$ and salaries.

 

[cv5]

Do you think God is more worried about how many hours we read our bibles or how we are loving one another?
Biblical doctrine is completely worthless if it’s not based on God who is Love. Love also being His two greatest commandments to us.

[Luk 24:44-48 KJV]
44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.

Right. So please tell us @Just_A__Follower what is it that the prophet is intending to convey here?
Why is this precise information so invaluable?

Eze 24:1
Again in the ninth year, in the tenth month, in the tenth day of the month, the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

Eze 24:2
Son of man, write thee the name of the day, even of this same day: the king of Babylon set himself against Jerusalem this same day.

*******************************************************************

I know exactly what the message is here. Why do I know?
Endless hours of hearing lectures by superb teachers and searching the Scriptures to see whether those things were so.

Act 17:10
And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.

Act 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Wow. God sounds quite pleased with the Bereans. They got an atta-boy.

***************************************************************************************

Question: Is Joel Osteen EVER going to teach ANYTHING like this? Nope.
First of all he does not know. Secondly, he could care less. Thirdly, it would thin out his herd dramatically.

 

[Just_A__Follower]

Have I denied the doctrine that you put forward? I don’t believe I did being I never read much of what you put forward. I simply looked at the fruit. I looked at the way you were attempting to present the doctrine. That’s as far as I got. I commented on the way you were presenting and you somehow came to the conclusion that I was denying doctrine. I also commented on the fact that god looks at our heart not our brain meaning it’s not what you know but more of how you act it out. Jesus taught the apostles so they could teach others no doubt. But more importantly He taught them so they could act it out. He taught them about grace and love so that they would have grace and love, not simply so they would know what it was. He said that they would be known by how they loved one another, not by how much they knew. How are non-believers to know us coming on this public forum if all they see are rude, sarcastic, hateful comments? It’s not about my feelings. Trust me I’ve been through enough in my life to not let comments from another whether it be face to face or on a forum bother me.

I listen to or ignore doctrine depending on how it’s presented because the fruit it the first thing I see. From there I compare said doctrine to scripture and listen to the Spirit inside me to decide whether it is worth taking in.

 

[Just_A__Follower]

[Luk 24:44-48 KJV]
44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.

Right. So please tell us @Just_A__Follower what is it that the prophet is intending to convey here?
Why is this precise information so invaluable?

Eze 24:1
Again in the ninth year, in the tenth month, in the tenth day of the month, the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

Eze 24:2
Son of man, write thee the name of the day, even of this same day: the king of Babylon set himself against Jerusalem this same day.

*******************************************************************

I know exactly what the message is here. Why do I know?
Endless hours of hearing lectures by superb teachers and searching the Scriptures to see whether those things were so.

Act 17:10
And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.

Act 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Wow. God sounds quite pleased with the Bereans. They got an atta-boy.

***************************************************************************************

Question: Is Joel Osteen EVER going to teach ANYTHING like this? Nope.
First of all he does not know. Secondly, he could care less. Thirdly, it would thin out his herd dramatically.

I don’t know much of what Joel Osteen teaches as I’ve never listened to his teachings. Like I said I see fruit first. He doesn’t teach out of love for others but rather his love for money. From what I’ve heard he teaches a prosperity gospel. The people listening to him most likely aren’t there because they don’t know the true gospel. They’re there because he tells them what they want to hear. It is our duty to provide them with the correct gospel but calling them biblically illiterate fools is probably not a way of sharing it with them.

 

[cv5]

Have I denied the doctrine that you put forward? I don’t believe I did being I never read much of what you put forward. I simply looked at the fruit. I looked at the way you were attempting to present the doctrine. That’s as far as I got. I commented on the way you were presenting and you somehow came to the conclusion that I was denying doctrine. I also commented on the fact that god looks at our heart not our brain meaning it’s not what you know but more of how you act it out. Jesus taught the apostles so they could teach others no doubt. But more importantly He taught them so they could act it out. He taught them about grace and love so that they would have grace and love, not simply so they would know what it was. He said that they would be known by how they loved one another, not by how much they knew. How are non-believers to know us coming on this public forum if all they see are rude, sarcastic, hateful comments? It’s not about my feelings. Trust me I’ve been through enough in my life to not let comments from another whether it be face to face or on a forum bother me.

I listen to or ignore doctrine depending on how it’s presented because the fruit it the first thing I see. From there I compare said doctrine to scripture and listen to the Spirit inside me to decide whether it is worth taking in.

Here is a nice little home Bible study project for you and your crew:

Eze 29:2
Son of man, set thy face against Pharaoh king of Egypt, and prophesy against him, and against all Egypt:

Eze 29:3
Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.

Eze 29:4
But I will put hooks in thy jaws, and I will cause the fish of thy rivers to stick unto thy scales, and I will bring thee up out of the midst of thy rivers, and all the fish of thy rivers shall stick unto thy scales.

Eze 29:5
And I will leave thee thrown into the wilderness, thee and all the fish of thy rivers: thou shalt fall upon the open fields; thou shalt not be brought together, nor gathered: I have given thee for meat to the beasts of the field and to the fowls of the heaven.

***********************************************************************

So what in the world does this have to do with king of Sodom of Genesis 14 then the why of Genesis 15 (which conspicuously follows), Jeroboam, Judas, Goliath and John 21:11?

 

[Just_A__Follower]

Just a few thoughts on your posts, while I agree with some parts, I think perhaps consider a different perspective.

We love others because He first loved us, it is His love in us that enables us to love others unconditionally.

But I also think that there is this tendency to create a dichotomy where there isn't one.

@Just_A__Follower wrote:

Knowing about God is completely different than knowing God.


Yet when does not preclude the other.

Both are important, so we should not discount the Bible scholar who is a servant of God and seeks to provide an academic Biblical perspective. The church has done itself a great disservice by "dumbing" itself down over the years. In fact there is an excellent book called the "Scandal of the Evangelical Mind" written in 1990's and it is even worse now.

But the one with strong mind can fall prey to intellectual pride, this is not a good look for the church, I agree.

As well, God is for every person, of every level of intelligence and understanding. So even those who may not grasp the more complex concepts can still just have a very intimate profound knowledge of God, as well.
Having stated this when a person lacks discernment, or if they are more carnally minded, looking for external manifestations, like ecstatic speech, they seem to be more vulnerable to false doctrine.

I am rethinking this and think both are important.

Definitely agree that one must know about God before knowing God. But there are many that spend so much time on that first step that they never make it to the second step. If one is not able to grasp the deeper concepts we should help them, not put them down. We should also recognize the difference between a teacher and a scholar. One knows the information and the other knows how to convey the information. A scholar may know more but what good is the knowledge if it can’t be conveyed properly to others?

 

[cv5]

I don’t know much of what Joel Osteen teaches as I’ve never listened to his teachings. Like I said I see fruit first. He doesn’t teach out of love for others but rather his love for money. From what I’ve heard he teaches a prosperity gospel. The people listening to him most likely aren’t there because they don’t know the true gospel. They’re there because he tells them what they want to hear. It is our duty to provide them with the correct gospel but calling them biblically illiterate fools is probably not a way of sharing it with them.

Sorry I really needed to emphasize this to better make the point:

[Luk 24:44-48 KJV]
44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.

What? What is being fulfilled by this entry of Ezekiel 24??? BTW.....there are "levels" to the answer!

 

[cv5]

Definitely agree that one must know about God before knowing God. But there are many that spend so much time on that first step that they never make it to the second step. If one is not able to grasp the deeper concepts we should help them, not put them down. We should also recognize the difference between a teacher and a scholar. One knows the information and the other knows how to convey the information. A scholar may know more but what good is the knowledge if it can’t be conveyed properly to others?

No time like the present!

 

[Just_A__Follower]

Here is a nice little home Bible study project for you and your crew:

Eze 29:2
Son of man, set thy face against Pharaoh king of Egypt, and prophesy against him, and against all Egypt:

Eze 29:3
Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.

Eze 29:4
But I will put hooks in thy jaws, and I will cause the fish of thy rivers to stick unto thy scales, and I will bring thee up out of the midst of thy rivers, and all the fish of thy rivers shall stick unto thy scales.

Eze 29:5
And I will leave thee thrown into the wilderness, thee and all the fish of thy rivers: thou shalt fall upon the open fields; thou shalt not be brought together, nor gathered: I have given thee for meat to the beasts of the field and to the fowls of the heaven.

***********************************************************************

So what in the world does this have to do with king of Sodom of Genesis 14 then the why of Genesis 15 (which conspicuously follows), Jeroboam, Judas, Goliath and John 21:11?

Not sure who my “crew” is. And I have my own study going on. I don’t have time for homework from someone who is not my teacher. You have a good day.

 

[cv5]

I don’t know much of what Joel Osteen teaches as I’ve never listened to his teachings. Like I said I see fruit first. He doesn’t teach out of love for others but rather his love for money. From what I’ve heard he teaches a prosperity gospel. The people listening to him most likely aren’t there because they don’t know the true gospel. They’re there because he tells them what they want to hear. It is our duty to provide them with the correct gospel but calling them biblically illiterate fools is probably not a way of sharing it with them.

Pretty much agree.

But still, may I have your answer as to the solution for Ezekiel 24:1-2?
No rush no rush. Take your time. Get back to me in a month or two. Because that time spent might be required of you.
Nevertheless, your efforts will not be in vain. Be a Berean!

BTW.....there is more of the same. If you did not know.

[2Ki 25:1 KJV] 1 And it came to pass in the ninth year of his reign, in the tenth month, in the tenth [day] of the month, [that] Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came, he, and all his host, against Jerusalem, and pitched against it; and they built forts against it round about.

[Jer 39:1 KJV] 1 In the ninth year of Zedekiah king of Judah, in the tenth month, came Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon and all his army against Jerusalem, and they besieged it.

[Jer 52:4 KJV] 4 And it came to pass in the ninth year of his reign, in the tenth month, in the tenth [day] of the month, [that] Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon came, he and all his army, against Jerusalem, and pitched against it, and built forts against it round about.

[Eze 24:1 KJV] 1 Again in the ninth year, in the tenth month, in the tenth [day] of the month, the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

 

[cv5]

Not sure who my “crew” is. And I have my own study going on. I don’t have time for homework from someone who is not my teacher. You have a good day.

Wonderful. Could you please see it your way to actually post some passages once in a while?
Really, we all could use a review including myself especially.

 

[sawdust]

Biblical doctrine is completely worthless if it’s not based on God who is Love. Love also being His two greatest commandments to us.

The problem is, as you say, God is love and if you don't know God, you might think you are being loving but who knows really? How you respond to a situation may not be how the Lord would respond at all. One only need think of the time He called Peter satan.

Love is not a warm fuzzy or being nice to people. Our God is a consuming fire as well and the reason we know that? Bible Doctrine.