The Kerygma - God's Requirement for Salvation

[JimiSurvivor]

That's not an example of someone going from spiritual life to spiritual death.

Branches are a reference to those who have attached themselves to Jesus and are tapped into His life. I cannot see how you can say anything else and be consistent with the text. Jesus was making the point that we must remain in that union to continue to enjoy His life (which is eternal). His life is eternal. We have it too as long as we remain connected to Him. We do not have to perform works to stay in that place. Rather, the relationship of the branches to the Vine is one of continual faith/love dependency.

Jesus said: in John 15:4 Remain in Me, and I will remain in you..."
This verse by itself suggests that His "remaining in us" is conditioned on our choice to also "abide in Him."
Remaining in this active relationship is the only way we can bear fruit. However, in John 15:6 Jesus gives us a warning,
6If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned.
Here he says that it is possible for a "branch," one who has been joined to Himself, to willfully discontinue that relationship.

The result is this: 6If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned. "Withering is a sign of the cessation of life" Thus the teaching speaks of how someone, who has been raised to life can fall back into death.

This is the simplest, most straight-forward way of handling the text clearly is an example of someone going from a state of spiritual life to spiritual death.

 

[NightTwister]

Branches are a reference to those who have attached themselves to Jesus and are tapped into His life. I cannot see how you can say anything else and be consistent with the text. Jesus was making the point that we must remain in that union to continue to enjoy His life (which is eternal). His life is eternal. We have it too as long as we remain connected to Him. We do not have to perform works to stay in that place. Rather, the relationship of the branches to the Vine is one of continual faith/love dependency.

Jesus said: in John 15:4 Remain in Me, and I will remain in you..."
This verse by itself suggests that His "remaining in us" is conditioned on our choice to also "abide in Him."
Remaining in this active relationship is the only way we can bear fruit. However, in John 15:6 Jesus gives us a warning,
6If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned.
Here he says that it is possible for a "branch," one who has been joined to Himself, to willfully discontinue that relationship.

The result is this: 6If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned. "Withering is a sign of the cessation of life" Thus the teaching speaks of how someone, who has been raised to life can fall back into death.

This is the simplest, most straight-forward way of handling the text clearly is an example of someone going from a state of spiritual life to spiritual death.

A warning is not an example. Warnings are used all the time to prevent undesired behavior (e.g. HIGH VOLTAGE).

 

[JimiSurvivor]

You said "This type of branch which does not remain/abide/continue in Him after becoming disconnected and is cut off and "THROWN AWAY" According to Jesus, disconnected branches that no longer share the life of the Vine are judged."

When you said "this TYPE of branch" were you meaning to imply that there was something INTRINSICALLY different about this kind of person?

 

[JimiSurvivor]

A warning is not an example. Warnings are used all the time to prevent undesired behavior (e.g. HIGH VOLTAGE).

But examples can, and often are used as warnings in the Scriptures:
…5Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them, for they were struck down in the wilderness. 6 These things took place as examples to keep us from craving evil things as they did. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were. As it is written: “The people sat down to eat and to drink, and got up to indulge in revelry.”…(1 Corinthians 10:5-6)

My only other point would be that it would be ineffective to use as an example to WARN others something which has no possibility of ever happening.

 

[NightTwister]

But examples can, and often are used as warnings in the Scriptures:
…5Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them, for they were struck down in the wilderness. 6 These things took place as examples to keep us from craving evil things as they did. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were. As it is written: “The people sat down to eat and to drink, and got up to indulge in revelry.”…(1 Corinthians 10:5-6)

My only other point would be that it would be ineffective to use as an example to WARN others something which has no possibility of ever happening.

Still not an example. If going from spiritual life to spiritual death were possible, you would think there would be at least one example.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Still not an example. If going from spiritual life to spiritual death were possible, you would think there would be at least one example.

In the Parable of the Vine and Branches, some who were grafted in did not CONTINUE to abide or REMAIN in that position. Therefore they could not continue to reside in the LIFE of the SON:
6If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned.
(John 15:6)

This verse allows for the possibility that someone may not continue in Christ and in His teaching. If choose to depart from Christ they will no longer experience His (eternal) life either.
The Bible says: …11And this is that testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.…
(1 John 5:12)
We can only remain in the Son if we remain/abide/continue in His message of salvation - the gospel. Those who cease believing the gospel no longer have access to His life

Many other verses reiterate this same truth.
24As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. IF it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that He Himself made to us: eternal life.…(1 John 2:24)

 

[NightTwister]

In the Parable of the Vine and Branches, some who were grafted in did not CONTINUE to abide or REMAIN in that position. Therefore they could not continue to reside in the LIFE of the SON:
6If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned.
(John 15:6)

This verse allows for the possibility that someone may not continue in Christ and in His teaching. If choose to depart from Christ they will no longer experience His (eternal) life either.
The Bible says: …11And this is that testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.…
(1 John 5:12)
We can only remain in the Son if we remain/abide/continue in His message of salvation - the gospel. Those who cease believing the gospel no longer have access to His life

Many other verses reiterate this same truth.
24As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. IF it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that He Himself made to us: eternal life.…(1 John 2:24)

Still not an example. If you had one, you would've already posted it.

 

[Ouch]

Still not an example. If you had one, you would've already posted it.

Luke 15:11-32
11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:

12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.

13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.

14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.

15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.

16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.

17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!

18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:

23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:

24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.

26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.

27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.

28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.

29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:

30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.

31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.

32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

 

[GWH]

Incorrect.
Salvation is always a gift given to those that believe.
We are not talking about the ways to forfeit your salvation.
Our salvation is solely based on the crucifixion of Jesus Christ for our sin.
That crucifixion is called the atonement for our sinful rebellion.
You cannot receive the Holy Spirit unless you believe in Jesus first.
And you cannot walk the Christian walk without the Holy Spirit.
I am shocked that so few people understand the gospel.
There is no such thing as the fuller gospel.
Jesus alone is the alpha and the omega of everything in Christianity.
We boast in Christ alone for salvation.

I asked for Scriptures to support this post, but seeing none I will now reply more fully.
It would be nice to know what is "incorrect" about what I posted: both-and, horse>cart, Faith works (Eph. 2:8-10, Jam. 2:17-18).
Yes, salvation is a gift, received via belief/faith in Jesus as Messiah and Lord (Eph. 2:8-10, Acts 16:30-31).
Apostasy is the repudiation and forfeiture of one's salvation = returning/throwing away God's gift (Heb. 6:4-6).
Yes, salvation is made possible because of Christ's atonement and is signified by his resurrection (Rom. 3:21-5:1, 1Cor. 15:17-19).
Yes, those who repent of unbelief and seek God's salvation receive God's HS (Rom. 5:5, 8:9).
And yes, walking by faith means cooperating with the HS (2Cor. 5:7, Gal. 5:22-23).
It is indeed rather shocking and very sad that so few people understand and accept the Gospel (Matt. 7:14, 23:37).
The essential Gospel creed is simple: Accept Jesus as Messiah and Lord. The elaboration of its implications is longer/fuller.
Yes, Jesus as Lord/God is the alpha and omega (Rev. 1:8, 21:6, 22:13).
We boast that God loves and wants to save everyone who believes (Eph. 2:8-9, 1Tim. 2:3-4, John 3:16).

 

[Inquisitor]

I asked for Scriptures to support this post, but seeing none I will now reply more fully.
It would be nice to know what is "incorrect" about what I posted: both-and, horse>cart, Faith works (Eph. 2:8-10, Jam. 2:17-18).
Yes, salvation is a gift, received via belief/faith in Jesus as Messiah and Lord (Eph. 2:8-10, Acts 16:30-31).
Apostasy is the repudiation and forfeiture of one's salvation = returning/throwing away God's gift (Heb. 6:4-6).
Yes, salvation is made possible because of Christ's atonement and is signified by his resurrection (Rom. 3:21-5:1, 1Cor. 15:17-19).
Yes, those who repent of unbelief and seek God's salvation receive God's HS (Rom. 5:5, 8:9).
And yes, walking by faith means cooperating with the HS (2Cor. 5:7, Gal. 5:22-23).
It is indeed rather shocking and very sad that so few people understand and accept the Gospel (Matt. 7:14, 23:37).
The essential Gospel creed is simple: Accept Jesus as Messiah and Lord. The elaboration of its implications is longer/fuller.
Yes, Jesus as Lord/God is the alpha and omega (Rev. 1:8, 21:6, 22:13).
We boast that God loves and wants to save everyone who believes (Eph. 2:8-9, 1Tim. 2:3-4, John 3:16).

Well done.

Even supplied the quotations.

 

[mystic7]

Romans 10:9-10 That if thou confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shall be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation

 

[GWH]

Romans 10:9-10 That if thou confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shall be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation

Yes, shall we unpack that passage to explore what it teaches?

First, IF. This word should not be skipped, because it indicates God's condition for salvation that follows. Needing to satisfy a condition indicates that a sinner is able to do so--or not. IOW, they have moral free will as per Deut. 30:19, Matt. 23:37, John 3:16, 1Tim. 2:3-4 and so forth.

Second, the passage mentions confession accompanied by faith in the first sentence and then clarifies in the second sentence that saving faith or believing unto righteousness occurs first and is then followed by the work of confessing Jesus as Lord. This agrees with Eph. 2:8-10, which says we are saved by grace through or because we satisfy the condition of faith, and then we cooperate with God in doing His will.

Third, the content of saving faith includes belief that Jesus is Lord or God in the human dimension, who died as the atonement for the sins of humanity, and who was resurrected to prove his divinity as the Son of God. Paul said in 1Cor. 15:17-19 that if Jesus has not been raised then our faith is futile, and he explained in Rom. 3:21-5:3 that Christ's sacrificial death made possible the forgiveness of sins of those who believe in him as Messiah.

Fourth, Paul refers to the heart as the seat of saving faith, and elsewhere in the NT we learn that the heart's faith can be in Satan instead of in Jesus/God. Heart in this context does not refer to the organ that pumps blood but rather to the part of our consciousness that Freud called the ego or self-identity. Those who reject faith in God are thereby I-dolatrous.

Fifth, this passage goes on in Rom. 10:16-18 to say that not all Jews accepted the good news, but the message has gone out to the ends of the world, presumably meaning to the Gentiles. Paul may have been anticipating the future evangelization of the world, or he may have meant something akin to Rom. 1:20: that creation reveals God's power and moral nature via general revelation.

Sixth?

 

[Ouch]

Romans 10:9-10 That if thou confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shall be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation

That is a good verse, not sure if your trying to prove that is how your reborn? If it is, you should look at it again in context.

It is a perfect verse to prove not once saved always saved.

 

[GWH]

Well done.

Even supplied the quotations.

Thanks! Yes, the essential Gospel creed is simple: Accept Jesus as Messiah and Lord,
but many churches/pastors do not teach a fuller/deeper understanding by elaborating its implications
and then building on it with didachaic doctrines--or else what they build is problematic (1Cor. 3:11-15).

First, God made just forgiveness of sins possible via becoming Messiah and paying the penalty Himself (Rom. 3:21-5:1).
Second, God proved Jesus was Messiah/Christ by His resurrection after atoning for sins (1Cor. 15:17-19).
Third, salvation from punishment of sins to heaven is a gift offered to all sinners, because God loves all (John 3:16, 1Tim. 2:3-4).
Fourth, God's grace/gift may be received/opened via saving faith/accepting Jesus as Messiah and Lord (Eph. 2:8-9, Acts 16:31).
Fifth, faith is the non-meritorious condition of forgiveness, not a work whereby a person earns salvation (John 6:29, 5:39-47, Rom. 4:3).
Sixth, saving faith at the moment of repentance/conversion/seeking salvation is signified by loving/godly works (Eph. 2:10, Jam. 2:17).
Seventh, godly love is the fruit of receiving and cooperating with the HS (Rom. 5:5, 8:9, 2Cor. 5:7, Gals. 5:22-23, Col. 2:6).
Eighth, apostasy is the repudiation and forfeiture of one's salvation = returning/throwing away God's gift (Heb. 6:4-6, 10:26-39).

 

[NightTwister]

Branches are a reference to those who have attached themselves to Jesus and are tapped into His life. I cannot see how you can say anything else and be consistent with the text. Jesus was making the point that we must remain in that union to continue to enjoy His life (which is eternal). His life is eternal. We have it too as long as we remain connected to Him. We do not have to perform works to stay in that place. Rather, the relationship of the branches to the Vine is one of continual faith/love dependency.

Jesus said: in John 15:4 Remain in Me, and I will remain in you..."
This verse by itself suggests that His "remaining in us" is conditioned on our choice to also "abide in Him."
Remaining in this active relationship is the only way we can bear fruit. However, in John 15:6 Jesus gives us a warning,
6If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned.
Here he says that it is possible for a "branch," one who has been joined to Himself, to willfully discontinue that relationship.

The result is this: 6If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned. "Withering is a sign of the cessation of life" Thus the teaching speaks of how someone, who has been raised to life can fall back into death.

This is the simplest, most straight-forward way of handling the text clearly is an example of someone going from a state of spiritual life to spiritual death.

Branches are a reference to those who have attached themselves to something or someone. Those who are attached to Jesus will advise in Him. Those who attach themselves to something or someone else will not. I'm any case, this still isn't an example.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Those who are attached to Jesus will abide in Him. Those who attach themselves to something or someone else will not.

Are you saying that all who currently abide in Christ will always continue to do so?

 

[Inquisitor]

Thanks! Yes, the essential Gospel creed is simple: Accept Jesus as Messiah and Lord,
but many churches/pastors do not teach a fuller/deeper understanding by elaborating its implications
and then building on it with didachaic doctrines--or else what they build is problematic (1Cor. 3:11-15).

First, God made just forgiveness of sins possible via becoming Messiah and paying the penalty Himself (Rom. 3:21-5:1).
Second, God proved Jesus was Messiah/Christ by His resurrection after atoning for sins (1Cor. 15:17-19).
Third, salvation from punishment of sins to heaven is a gift offered to all sinners, because God loves all (John 3:16, 1Tim. 2:3-4).
Fourth, God's grace/gift may be received/opened via saving faith/accepting Jesus as Messiah and Lord (Eph. 2:8-9, Acts 16:31).
Fifth, faith is the non-meritorious condition of forgiveness, not a work whereby a person earns salvation (John 6:29, 5:39-47, Rom. 4:3).
Sixth, saving faith at the moment of repentance/conversion/seeking salvation is signified by loving/godly works (Eph. 2:10, Jam. 2:17).
Seventh, godly love is the fruit of receiving and cooperating with the HS (Rom. 5:5, 8:9, 2Cor. 5:7, Gals. 5:22-23, Col. 2:6).
Eighth, apostasy is the repudiation and forfeiture of one's salvation = returning/throwing away God's gift (Heb. 6:4-6, 10:26-39).

Why would two people disagree that salvation is a free gift given to those that believe?

 

[Ouch]

Why would two people disagree that salvation is a free gift given to those that believe?

More that two, JESUS said we have to be born of water and of spirit to enter.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Of course if you don't belive you would never get baptized.

JESUS also said this, which alines with John 3:5

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

 

[Inquisitor]

Of course if you don't belive you would never get baptized.

You did state "Of course if you don't believe you would never get baptized".

Which is stating the obvious.

Ultimately, salvation is a free gift and we cannot earn it through a sacrament, or any other way.

If you believe that sprinkling some water on your head atones for you sin, then that is what
you believe.

 

[NightTwister]

Those who are attached to Jesus will abide in Him. Those who attach themselves to something or someone else will not.

Are you saying that all who currently abide in Christ will always continue to do so?

Yes