LOL, Insults aren’t exegesis. The question still stands: show from Scripture where Acts 2 Jews & Acts 10 Gentiles are treated the same.
Acts 2:38 Comparison: Evangelical vs. Oneness / Baptismal-Regeneration View
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LOL, Insults aren’t exegesis. The question still stands: show from Scripture where Acts 2 Jews & Acts 10 Gentiles are treated the same.
If this is true (it is not, at least not the way you imply) then WHY were all new believers baptized.... for the next couple of thousand years or so?
It's recorded beginning with Abel (Heb 11) for thousands of years people were saved by Grace thru Faith with no water baptism involved.
The Lord Jesus commanded communion & water baptism.
Rom 1:5 "Through him we received grace" & apostleship "to call all the Gentiles to the obedience" "that comes from faith" for his name’s sake
(NOTE: FAITH leads to obedience)
Rom 16:26 Now revealed & made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, "so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience," "that comes from faith"
(NOTE: Obedience is the result of FAITH, not the cause.)
Every NT believer because of obedience should partake in communion & water baptism.
When true FAITH is the root obedience & good works will be the fruit.
Obedience is the evidence of Genuine FAITH (Abraham & James), not the cause of salvation (Paul) .
BECAUSE YOU SAY SO, makes since to me.
What happen to proving the Gentiles were grafted in differently than the Jews.
Rom1:5 and Rom16:26 most literally says obedience [] faith. The Greek grammar at it's most base and simplistic is translated as obedience [of] faith because those brackets need to be filled in to make some sense in English. But there are several very specific. legitimate ways to interpret the grammar and fill in the brackets.
This wording "that comes from faith" is one of several ways to translate this and is the favored of the faith-alone advocates who need faith to be alone and separate from all other words that Scripture uses to describe and define genuine faith. This also gives them the root and fruit idea.
But, there are other legitimate ways to translate this phrase:
- obedience [which is] faith, obedience [consisting of] faith, obedience-faith or faith-obedience, obedience namely faith
- Paul will show also in Rom10:16 that he considers faith and obedience to be virtually interchangeable when he's discussing genuine faith - the just above translations are consistent with this.
- Hebrews3:18-19 will also substantiate this.
- Then there are other ways to legitimately translate this phrase, such as: obedient faith or faithful obedience.
In Romans 1:5 and 16:26 faith is in the genitive case, which I read as possessive, meaning faith's obedience.
Another legitimate sense, but in Greek training we were taught to not use the possessive if there was a better choice, because possessive can run into ambiguity when reasoning with it. In this case I think apposition is better. I've also chased this through Scripture and in the end come to a sense where it really just seems to be language for faithfulness.
Your opinion is duly noted. Keeping it simple: Rom 1 & 16, faith is the cause, obedience is the effect.
The head noun obedience is what faith produces. It’s the fruit, not the root.
Faith produces obedience & Obedience flows from faith
And your opinion was noted, understood and even addressed as a simple grammatical possibility.
I've provided the Greek grammatical basis for my position. What is the basis for yours?
You are insisting on a Genitive of Source (root/fruit) because your theology requires it, not because the grammar demands it.
The 'root and fruit' distinction you've learned fails in Rom10:16, where Paul explicitly defines 'obeying the gospel' as 'believing the report.' He uses them as synonyms, yet you're trying to force a separation between them. Is your 'simple' opinion based on the syntax, or just a faith-alone tradition?
Good grief:
I've already spoke to this. Here are the posted verses that have you so upset.
Rom 1:5 "Through him we received grace" & apostleship "to call all the Gentiles to the obedience" "that comes from faith" for his name’s sake
(NOTE: FAITH leads to obedience)
Rom 16:26 Now revealed & made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, "so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience," "that comes from faith"
(NOTE: Obedience is the result of FAITH, not the cause.)
You replied: IMO using this root and fruit argument is very weak.
I replied:
Your opinion is duly noted. Keeping it simple: Rom 1 & 16, faith is the cause, obedience is the effect.
The head noun obedience is what faith produces. It’s the fruit, not the root.
Faith produces obedience & Obedience flows from faith.
Again it's a simple read:
Here's a C&P from KJB, Rom 1:5 > "obedience that" > "comes from faith". My Note said > FAITH leads to obedience.
Another simple read:
A C&P from KJB, Rom 16:26 "obedience" "that comes from faith". My note said, Obedience is the result of FAITH, not the cause.
I'm done wasting time with this silly argument.
You're a very typical systematic theology conversant who quickly deviates into fallacious arguments. I'm not at all upset.
You're simply stuck in a systematic theology that favors a certain interpretation to make it work.
Your 'simple read' actually relies on the NIV, which is one of the few versions that adds words like 'that comes from' to enforce a particular theology. You aren't actually quoting the KJB (KJV) as you erred in stating.
Since you still haven't addressed why Paul defines 'obeying the gospel' as 'believing the report' in Rom10:16, it's clear you're not really interested in Paul's own vocabulary.
Labeling a grammatical argument 'silly' is just a tactical way to attempt an exit from a position of weakness.
I haven't been following the details of this discussion. Is it trying to determine whether obedience flows from faith, or whether obedience is an inseparable attribute/quality/characteristic of faith?
Since obedience appears to be defined as hearkening to what God says, hearkening of faith seems to imply an intrinsic response or action of faith. So hearkening comes through, or out of faith, which comes out of (ἐκ) hearing/reading, which comes through (διά) God's spoken/written words.
I hope this makes sense
Justification by Faith
22 This righteousness of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ for all those [Jew or Gentile] who believe [and trust in Him and acknowledge Him as God’s Son]. There is no distinction,
23 since all have sinned and continually fall short of the glory of God,
24 and are being justified [declared free of the guilt of sin, made acceptable to God, and granted eternal life] as a gift by His [precious, undeserved] grace, through the redemption [the payment for our sin] which is [provided] in Christ Jesus,
25 whom God displayed publicly [before the eyes of the world] as a [life-giving] sacrifice of atonement and reconciliation (propitiation) by His blood [to be received] through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness [which demands punishment for sin], because in His forbearance [His deliberate restraint] He passed over the sins previously committed [before Jesus’ crucifixion].
26 It was to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the One who justifies those who have faith in Jesus [and rely confidently on Him as Savior].
22 This righteousness of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ for all those [Jew or Gentile] who believe [and trust in Him and acknowledge Him as God’s Son]. There is no distinction,
23 since all have sinned and continually fall short of the glory of God,
24 and are being justified [declared free of the guilt of sin, made acceptable to God, and granted eternal life] as a gift by His [precious, undeserved] grace, through the redemption [the payment for our sin] which is [provided] in Christ Jesus,
25 whom God displayed publicly [before the eyes of the world] as a [life-giving] sacrifice of atonement and reconciliation (propitiation) by His blood [to be received] through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness [which demands punishment for sin], because in His forbearance [His deliberate restraint] He passed over the sins previously committed [before Jesus’ crucifixion].
26 It was to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the One who justifies those who have faith in Jesus [and rely confidently on Him as Savior].
Probably here would be the best start. Yes, it's really about the inseparable interrelationship between faith & obedience and the best translation - among several grammatical possibilities - of Rom1:5 & Rom16:26.
I don't think @FlyingDove likes input that opposes his systematics.
Baptism wasn't a thing then, but sacrificial blood on the altar demonstrated saving faith. That's why Cain was rejected: no blood on the altar
Genuine faith is described as unhypocritical faith, ie, faith that does what God says. In other words, not taking the lord's name to oneself in vain (Why call ye me lord, but don't do what I say?)