FOUNDATION, the 12 apostles or Pauls?

[Aaron56]

I mean people I always run into at these rodeos who speak authoritatively about Scripture with no evidence, other than they believe it, that their understanding of Scripture is in fact authoritative.

Correct me if I'm wrong but if people cannot agree on the SEAT of authority then arguments between the two are moot.

If one says "The Roman Church has the authority to tell me what scripture means"
but another says
"The Holy Spirit, given authority by the Lord (who has all authority), determines what scripture means and He shares this with the saints directly"
still, another says
"Scripture should interpret scripture"...

It may be best to find common ground elsewhere.

 

[Aaron56]

Yeah @Nedsk It's time to take a serious look at the history of the Roman Church - not just what they have said but what they have done. How many wars, persecutions of non-Roman saints, murders, scandals involving women, children (many boys), frauds must they commit (and consistently so) before one wonders about the foundation upon which it is built?

https://www.bishop-accountability.org/

 

[Wansvic]

I read it differently to you.

I view John the Baptist as the last prophet from the older covenant era.

The old covenant era was the law and prophets (including John).

John preceded the messiah therefore John was not a new covenant participant.

John's baptism was a baptism of repentance and that's all it was.

John was sent to straighten the path of the Lord.

Water baptism is an external ritual.

John was preparing Israel for the arrival of the messiah and the baptism of the Holy Spirit
and fire.

That is the spiritual baptism and an internal statement by Jesus of your citizenship in heaven.

I agree that John died prior to the institution of the NT. However, he was used to introduce water baptism for remission of sin. Water baptism was later modified to include calling upon the name of the Lord Jesus in association with His sacrifce and resurrection. (Luke 24:47) Each account detailing the essential elements reveal water baptism in the name of Jesus and receiving the Holy Ghost are necessary. (Acts 2:4-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7, 22:16)

 

[homwardbound]

Other than you saying so you have way to prove your understanding of Scripture is accurate or more authoritative than anyone elses

Believe as you think, okay have a great day
Thank you for the convo's
I perceive this, you are a sheep dressed in wolves clothing, you want to know the truth and put self and other flesh people first, Much confusion there, was me fro along while under Law first. to now hold up Law as good
God loves you through it all, I see this as God has done this in me for a very long while. Which I saw this love as Paul saw it in Philippians 3 Where he states he gave up the Law, to win Christ. Thanks as we each learn truth over error, while we here on earth first

 

[homwardbound]

Again, the command to be water baptized in the name of Jesus for remission of sin is a NT command. It is not part of the OT law. John the Baptist introduced the baptism of repentance for the remission of sin. At that time water baptism had no direct connection with Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. The water baptism command was later changed to include the name of Jesus. Those who believed in Jesus and His sacrifice were baptized in His name in order to receive remission of their sin.

The issue Paul was explaining in Galatians concerned the OT requirement of circumcision. The account reveals Jews were telling believers who had already obeyed the NT commands that they had to submit to the OT circumcision as well.

Also, it is commonly understood that Paul wrote to the Galatians prior to his stay in Ephesus. This is revealing since Paul preached the need to be water baptized in the name of Jesus, and assisted the men of Ephesus in receiving the Holy Ghost/Spirit as well.

Thank you, John came as a Prophet to tell the people, their savior has arrived. When he saw Jesus coming towards him. He said behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.
When Jesus confronted John, to get water Baptized by John. John refused, saying to Jesus "I" need to be Baptized by you! Jesus replied Baptize me for now, I am to do all that is right.
Jesus, was here on earth in flesh (Only perfect flesh) to reconcile us all to his Father God for us to get saved in his risen Life by Father. Father does the imputing, no other person can or does, yet man stands in the way and gets water Baptized, getting others to put them in charge. When truth is filled under Law it is now in Son, done on that cross, finished. Once for us all. Now, all that is left is to believe God in this done work for them, then God will impute you to be new in love and mercy to all also, see, what is done by Jesus. Has done for us to do. John 13:34
I believe God in risen Son. I am given new life from Daddy to love all not a few or just those that claim they are saved in by baptism of man.
John stated "I Baptize with water" you Jesus Baptize with Spirit, the Holy Spirit. So when the cross was done and the risen Jesus became real, we no longer under Law, now upholding Law as good, we have new in Father's Spirit and truth leading us in love where there is no law against true Love, 1 Cor 13:4-7 Daddy imputes this, no other way to do this in reality. Yet one, anyone can try and see 1 Cor 13:1-3 first
What does it mean, when Jesus yelled out "It is Finished" John 19:30
Ypu ask God what is finished? I see under Law is finished, yet you or others reading this too, ask God personally in your own prayer closet please, thank you
I do not see it as bad to go ahead and be water Baptized by people in a chuch gathering. The ?, I present is: Why are you doing it?
Does any other person save anyone else? Other than Jesus with Father the two as Won (One) for you at the resurrection after the death took away all sin first? So new life can get installed in you from Father for you through risen Son to you. Now to see Col 1:21-23 is that true, you are by Son made as if never sinned in Dady's Father's sight?
That is the greatest news. Since are given this from belief, who can refuse to get water Baptized? You are given it Wow woe is me Isaiah 6:1-7

 

[homwardbound]

You do know the law ended when JESUS died on the cross right?

Apparently you do, thank you, the freedom given was never meant for anyone to take it for grated. As Father knows who is who and what is what, Thanks

 

[sawdust]

How does HIS word tell us how we get rid of our sins?

Or don't we have to?

Don't feel bad, I don't believe any man unless it lines up with HIS word.

To ever think that we don't need to get rid of our sins is Satan finest work.

How many times must it be said?

We are baptized into Christ. His blood pardons our sins.

LOL You mean you don't believe any man unless it lines up with what you think HIS word says. Ergo, I don't feel bad at all.

 

[sawdust]

Why do you only use Acts 10 and put JESUS in a box?

Why not in Acts 8 where the semiratios were grafted in?

Why not Act 19 where the ephens were grafted in?

Peter says what happens when we are filled with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

JESUS says they shall speak with new tongues,

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

IF YOU DON'T THINK WE NEED TO BE BAPTIZED IN JESUS NAME TO GET RID OF OUR SINS AND THE ONLY THING WE NEED IS TO BE FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST.

HAS JESUS FILLED YOU with the HOLY GHOST like HE filled the Gentles???

BEFORE BAPTISM?

Just like HE filled he 120?

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

So basically you think everyone should speak in tongues in order to be saved? Is that why you emphasize a gift that was the prophetic fulfillment of Is.28:11-12 warning the unbelieving Jews to accept their Messiah but knowing they would not, abruptly ended the gift in 70AD as Israel faced it's final punishment from God and destroyed the Temple which Paul prophesied would happen in 1Cor.13:8?

 

[sawdust]

The idea Peter made a mistake is simply not true. The Apostle Paul's interaction with the Ephesians reveals baptism in the name of Jesus is water baptism, as receiving the Holy Ghost is recorded as a separate experience. (Acts 19:1-7) This occurred some 20+ years after Peter supposedly made the mistake of continuing to water baptize. Paul performed water baptism in the name of Jesus as revealed in 1 Corinthians 1:14-17. That account mentions that Paul baptized Crispus. And that is recorded in Acts 18:8. We know the baptisms are in water as only God can baptize people with the Holy Ghost.

In addition, Acts 1:5 does not state one experience would replace the other. And scripture elsewhere proves that was not the case. (Acts 2:4-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7, 22:16)

In Acts 11:15-18, Peter is reiterating what occurred in Acts 10:43-48. He remembered Jesus comment just prior to giving the command to be water baptized.

As noted previously, it is through acceptance of what Peter's rhetorical question reveals that the truth becomes clear, "Who was I to withstand God?". Peter understood to withhold water baptism in the name of Jesus from the Gentiles would have barred them from acquiring what Jesus died to provide. (Acts 10:43-48, 11:15-18)

And yes, John's baptism is long gone. The NT water baptism requires calling upon the name of Jesus affirming one's belief in His sacrifice and resurrection. (Acts 2:4-41, 8:12-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7, 22:16) Jesus prophesied this change would occur, "...Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." Luke 24:47

I have not denied water baptism was occurring but that is not the baptism Christ promised His followers would receive nor is it the baptism that places us into Christ, the only place where our sins are remitted.

There is only one baptism for the Church. Acts is a book showing us the beginning of the Church, it was a learning curve and they made mistakes, just like the OT saints made mistakes and all is recorded for our benefit. John's baptism in water was never meant for the Gentiles to start with. It was a baptism for Israel to prepare them for the coming Messiah.

As far as Peter's remark "who am I to withstand God" was in relation to his opposition who were complaining about him going in and eating with Gentiles, not that he baptized them in water. Acts 11:3

Yes, remission of sins in the name of Christ and what is it about Christ that remits our sins?

Matthew 26:28
For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

We are baptized into Christ and the means by which this occurs is with the Spirit, water doesn't have a high enough pay grade for the job.

Romans 6:3
Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

Ephesians 4:5
one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

 

[Ouch]

How many times must it be said?

We are baptized into Christ. His blood pardons our sins.

LOL You mean you don't believe any man unless it lines up with what you think HIS word says. Ergo, I don't feel bad at all.

No I meant what I said, and you will see what I mean.

How about we do this,

You say,

We are baptized into Christ. His blood pardons our sins.

SHOW ME THAT IN HIS WORD!!! OR IS IT A LIE???

You do know we will be held responsible for EVERY WORD that comes from our mouth.

 

[Ouch]

So basically you think everyone should speak in tongues in order to be saved? Is that why you emphasize a gift that was the prophetic fulfillment of Is.28:11-12 warning the unbelieving Jews to accept their Messiah but knowing they would not, abruptly ended the gift in 70AD as Israel faced it's final punishment from God and destroyed the Temple which Paul prophesied would happen in 1Cor.13:8?

Read HIS word for your self, JESUS SAYS

John 3:5
King James Version
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[sawdust]

No I meant what I said, and you will see what I mean.

How about we do this,

You say,

We are baptized into Christ. His blood pardons our sins.

SHOW ME THAT IN HIS WORD!!! OR IS IT A LIE???

You do know we will be held responsible for EVERY WORD that comes from our mouth.

Do you actually read my posts or is it you simply can't think logically?

I have shown you so many times already.

I am not going to keep repeating myself.

Have a nice day.

ps. you would do well to stop yelling at people too.

 

[Wansvic]

I have not denied water baptism was occurring but that is not the baptism Christ promised His followers would receive nor is it the baptism that places us into Christ, the only place where our sins are remitted.

There is only one baptism for the Church. Acts is a book showing us the beginning of the Church, it was a learning curve and they made mistakes, just like the OT saints made mistakes and all is recorded for our benefit. John's baptism in water was never meant for the Gentiles to start with. It was a baptism for Israel to prepare them for the coming Messiah.

As far as Peter's remark "who am I to withstand God" was in relation to his opposition who were complaining about him going in and eating with Gentiles, not that he baptized them in water. Acts 11:3

Yes, remission of sins in the name of Christ and what is it about Christ that remits our sins?

Matthew 26:28
For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

We are baptized into Christ and the means by which this occurs is with the Spirit, water doesn't have a high enough pay grade for the job.

Romans 6:3
Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

Ephesians 4:5
one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

Clearly our understanding of what it means to be baptized in the name of Jesus as well as what is conveyed in other scripture differs. However, thanks for the discussion.

 

[sawdust]

Read HIS word for your self, JESUS SAYS

John 3:5
King James Version
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Yes, I already explained. You are not born twice either physically or spiritually. One is born of water (physical birth) and the Spirit (spiritual birth).

One must be born into the world and from above to enter God's Kingdom.

 

[Ouch]

Yes, I already explained. You are not born twice either physically or spiritually. One is born of water (physical birth) and the Spirit (spiritual birth).

One must be born into the world and from above to enter God's Kingdom.

Yea, sorry since you can't back up your thoughts with HIS word I don't believe you.

As I said I only believe those who back up what they say WITH HIS WORD.

My choice do I follow you or JESUS who leads me down the straight and narrow path??

Do I need to answer that?

 

[sawdust]

Yea, sorry since you can't back up your thoughts with HIS word I don't believe you.

As I said I only believe those who back up what they say WITH HIS WORD.

My choice do I follow you or JESUS who leads me down the straight and narrow path??

Do I need to answer that?

I guess all those verses I quoted must have come from War and Peace?

I'm hardly shocked you don't believe me and frankly Charlotte .....

Have a nice day.

 

[Ouch]

I guess all those verses I quoted must have come from War and Peace?

I'm hardly shocked you don't believe me and frankly Charlotte .....

Have a nice day.

They could have been, none of them to me how I GET rid of my sins, OR prove JESUS filled you with the Holy Ghost.

When you stand in front of JESUS he will be judging you with HIS rule book and what HE TOLD US WHAT WE HAVE TO DO TO BE SAVED.

I sure hope you have a good day, but I know you could have a better one if you follow JESUS.

 

[Inquisitor]

The ONLY human born with the Holy Ghost and you don't think what he was doing had any inportance to us?

Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Luke 3:3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

As you can see he was in fact preaching remission of sins.

His mission was just for JESUS to set HIS path stright, YET JESUS was sin free.

Do you think we are to follow JESUS in every way EXCEPT IN THE WATER???

Make since you said this,

"Water baptism is an external ritual."

Since the only way to get rid of our sins is being baptized in JESUS name why do you say.

You say that as it's true, BUT CAN'T back it up with HIS word so it's STORY TIME.

So show me in HIS word where it's a ritual.

How do you think we get rid of our sins if it's not the way JESUS laid in out in the water?

Looks like you point out the catholics errors and don't know your own!!

The Reformers and Protestants followed in the foot steps of the Catholic Church.

They adopted a huge amount of doctrine from the Catholics.

John was sent to the Jews and not to the Gentiles.

John baptism was a simple public water baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets and that includes John the Baptist.

Jesus fulfilled all things that are written.

Luke 21:22
Because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.

As a Christian you are under grace and you have the Holy Spirit now.

We do everything now in the Spirit and not in the flesh.

 

[Ouch]

The Reformers and Protestants followed in the foot steps of the Catholic Church.

They adopted a huge amount of doctrine from the Catholics.

John was sent to the Jews and not to the Gentiles.

John baptism was a simple public water baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets and that includes John the Baptist.

Jesus fulfilled all things that are written.

Luke 21:22
Because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.

As a Christian you are under grace and you have the Holy Spirit now.

We do everything now in the Spirit and not in the flesh.

Thank you for all of your wisdom.

I don't need a history lesson with your oppionons, and I agree John was sent for the Jews.

When John was baptizing I would agree it was a public display of the sort since being bapitzed in JESUS name didn't start until way after John was murdered in Acts 2 and they all had to be rebaptize.

I sure do agree that JESUS fullfilled all HE needed to.

Since, I hope you can see that Paul is speaking to establish churchs after the book of Acts????

Tell me what we have to do to be reborn USING HIS WORD.

How do we get rid of our sins?

How do we get filled with the Holy Ghost?

 

[DallasMan]

Not sure I understood what you were saying in that sentence above?

Yeah, those with little revelation of what the New Testament teaches wouldn't.

To ever think that we don't need to get rid of our sins is satan finest work.

That's one of the many ways we know so called once saved always saved teaching is doctrines of devils because they claim one can live in sin and still be saved and still go to Heaven.

Thats EXACTLY what Scripture says.

The catholics do go by what scripture says so it's quite funny to hear any catholic tell someone to pay attention to what the Lrd says in His Word. Quite funny in deed.

Paul performed water baptism in the name of Jesus as revealed in 1 Corinthians 1:14-17.

Your scripture reference does not say Paul baptized in Jesus Name only, you added that in.

Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost

Colossians 3:17
And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by Him

What Peter said in Acts 2:38 is in relation to what is taught in Colossians 3:17 – if not, then Peter is in opposition to Jesus which is not the case because Peter was under the influence of the Holy Spirit who only speaks what He hears the Lord say (see John 16:13)

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

This is why many ministers when baptizing someone will say “In the Name of Jesus, I baptize you in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit”

Can you prove your understanding of Scripture is authoritative or not?

Well we certainly know that catholic teaching is not authoritative seeing they sadly teach numerous doctrines that are not found in God's Word because catholics go by their pagan traditions that led them to idolatry