Molinism: Is there scripture that supports it?

[Jordon]

Love thy neighbor as thyself.
A "neighbor" is someone in your insulah. A collection of houses built onto a central patriarch's house with a courtyard. But also includes the outcast "Samaritan" according to Jesus. So....YES! But not necessarily if they are a proclaimed atheist.

THIS:

All physical infirmities/deformities were caused ultimately by sin.

Being born into a Christian family or community gives people a better chance at being Christian.

So....sin must determine all faults of unbelief or illness in a person.

Then....is it individual sin or corporate sin that causes these life altering problems?

And we see this story in John when the Apostles asked Jesus, "Who sinned to cause this man to be born blind?".

And it's the same as the more modern Calvinistic question that's been asked for centuries before the internet was invented.

And as far as the Nature of God....
A.W. Tozer's "Knowledge of the Holy" has been the standard of Attributes of God as well as all the "omni-" terms used by people to describe God's nature and character. It's not an easy read by a long shot. But it's accuracy hasn't been challenged successfully. His style of writing has. (hard read and difficult to understand but otherwise the substance of his writing remains unchallenged.

well I don't know about Calvinistic views, but I do know about people calling people Calvinistic when they don't like the answers given,

But you touch on a good question about sin causing a man to be blind.

I believe that scripture touches more on spiritual blindness not physical blindness, where sin is preventing people seeing the spiritual ways of God and not believing a person can be healed

I believe that people who miss represent that, should be seen as blind to, and not calvinistic, because true Christians associated with Calvin's teachings are not spiritually blind.

But those painting the picture they are, are either miss informed or in my opinion forcing there will upon you, whilst painting the picture somebody else is forcing there will,

That's a never ending cycle sadly.

 

[PaulThomson]

I have no idea what that is. Why is this important to you?

Curiosity is a wonderful thing. It makes life interesting to be curious about the things we see and hear and to want to understand them more. Advances in every field of endeavour, including theology, come through people who are curious and are willing to ask questions that the status quo has no satisfactory answer for yet.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Curiosity is a wonderful thing. It makes life interesting to be curious about the things we see and hear and to want to understand them more. Advances in every field of endeavour, including theology, come through people who are curious and are willing to ask questions that the status quo has no satisfactory answer for yet.

I'm curous too about the things of God but I'm going to wait until I see Him face to face. We have forever to get to know the things He doesn't reveal to us yet in this age.

It's also quite possible that we won't understand Him right now if He told us. Maybe when when we're like Jesus later on.

 

[Blue155]

I'm curous too about the things of God but I'm going to wait until I see Him face to face. We have forever to get to know the things He doesn't reveal to us yet in this age.

It's also quite possible that we won't understand Him right now if He told us. Maybe when when we're like Jesus later on.

While we might not have every answer, we are to trust the one who does :-D

 

[John146]

Unlike YOU, I use a most reliable source for the Old Testament called the Tanakh which existed literally thousands of years before the kjv.

So we will stick with the translation in which is factual for Verse 16, MINE!!

The most reliable source is the ESV?

 

[PaulThomson]

he's only posting scripture that looks as if God doesn't know the future, and ignoring scripture where God does talk about knowing the future, even in the scripture it appears that God doesn't know, it doesn't mean that he doesn't because it's not clearly written in the scripture in the scripture he's posting, because time and time again we see God speaking to you without revealing the future but hinting your future and your outcome.

It's why prophet's where so very important to people, because they could deliver messages that made people believe they had a future with God.

He doesn't have an answer for God changing the future of king Hezekiah and giving him 15 more years to live either

God knows the future is coming, and God can make specific plans for the future, if he wants to. And God has the power to make his plans come to pass, if He still wants to when the time comes. Or He can change His plans in response to changing circumstances, if He wants to. God does not need to know every detail of the future to be able to make His specific plans come to pass. His problem-solving ability and His supreme power are sufficient to achieve that. There is no scripture that says that God knows all the future. I have logically and scripturally addressed the proof texts so far launched in this thread as supposed proof that God knows all the future, and have shown that they do not say that at all.

So, your accusation that I am ignoring scripture where God talks about knowing the future is false. You and others in this thread have not been able to defeat the logic of my exegesis, of those texts to remove them from your gotcha arsenal, but have only nay-said and resorted to ad hominems.

My position, that God does not know all the future, but can plan and bring about specific plans that He might devise through His power and wisdom, us what we see time and again in scripture, and is a position which no one has provided scripture to contradict. The level of consideration of arguments by many in this thread is simply to cite a Bible reference and claim victory, or to quote a Bible verse and claim victory, without making any attempt to show hoe one can logically exegete their claim from those texts. I on the other hand, have shown how I exegete my understanding from those same texts.

I will allow fair-minded readers to decide who is being disingenuous here.

 

[PaulThomson]

well I don't know about Calvinistic views, but I do know about people calling people Calvinistic when they don't like the answers given,

But you touch on a good question about sin causing a man to be blind.

I believe that scripture touches more on spiritual blindness not physical blindness, where sin is preventing people seeing the spiritual ways of God and not believing a person can be healed

I believe that people who miss represent that, should be seen as blind to, and not calvinistic, because true Christians associated with Calvin's teachings are not spiritually blind.

But those painting the picture they are, are either miss informed or in my opinion forcing there will upon you, whilst painting the picture somebody else is forcing there will,

That's a never ending cycle sadly.

Thse two boldened statements sound contradictory to me. How can you know whether true Christians associated with Calvin are not spiritually blind, if you don't know about Calvinism?

True Christians can be spiritually blind.

2Pe 1:9
But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
Rev 3:17
Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Rev 3:18
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Rev 3:19
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

 

[Blue155]

To @PaulThomson, not sure if you saw my comment to you. Post #69.

https://christianchat.com/threads/molinism-is-there-scripture-that-supports-it.221965/post-5661236

 

[Jordon]

Thse two boldened statements sound contradictory to me. How can you know whether true Christians associated with Calvin are not spiritually blind, if you don't know about Calvinism?

True Christians can be spiritually blind.

2Pe 1:9
But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
Rev 3:17
Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Rev 3:18
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Rev 3:19
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

I know how reformed churches teach who are affiliated with Calvin's teachings and preach and there not Calvinistic,


No you didn't know much sadly only your attempt to derail what I said, with an attempt to grow conspiracy, it's quite normal for people who doubt his word, which you do.

But anyhow here's my church

 

[Jordon]

God knows the future is coming, and God can make specific plans for the future, if he wants to. And God has the power to make his plans come to pass, if He still wants to when the time comes. Or He can change His plans in response to changing circumstances, if He wants to. God does not need to know every detail of the future to be able to make His specific plans come to pass. His problem-solving ability and His supreme power are sufficient to achieve that. There is no scripture that says that God knows all the future. I have logically and scripturally addressed the proof texts so far launched in this thread as supposed proof that God knows all the future, and have shown that they do not say that at all.

So, your accusation that I am ignoring scripture where God talks about knowing the future is false. You and others in this thread have not been able to defeat the logic of my exegesis, of those texts to remove them from your gotcha arsenal, but have only nay-said and resorted to ad hominems.

My position, that God does not know all the future, but can plan and bring about specific plans that He might devise through His power and wisdom, us what we see time and again in scripture, and is a position which no one has provided scripture to contradict. The level of consideration of arguments by many in this thread is simply to cite a Bible reference and claim victory, or to quote a Bible verse and claim victory, without making any attempt to show hoe one can logically exegete their claim from those texts. I on the other hand, have shown how I exegete my understanding from those same texts.

I will allow fair-minded readers to decide who is being disingenuous here.

He can bring the future to the present if he wants to, which he did when he showed the future to John in revalation, which means he can be present in anytime with his omnipresence , and he can change the future of a person by knowing the future of that person, which you've still not yet to acknowledge king hezekiah

 

[Jordon]

How to know if your a Christian

 

[PaulThomson]

He can bring the future to the present if he wants to, which he did when he showed the future to John in revalation, which means he can be present in anytime with his omnipresence , and he can change the future of a person by knowing the future of that person, which you've still not yet to acknowledge king hezekiah

LOL! You think what John saw was actual history and what John saw will happen literally.
Or is it more reasonable to understand Revelation as a symbolic vision predicting how spiritual and political forces will play out in the world if things follow their usual human and demonic courses?

 

[Jordon]

LOL! You think what John saw was actual history and what John saw will happen literally.
Or is it more reasonable to understand Revelation as a symbolic vision predicting how spiritual and political forces will play out in the world if things follow their usual human and demonic courses?

revelation 21:3-4 is not predicting either it is knowing.the future. So if you take into account what your not seeing then maybe your eyes will be opened. And maybe you can see Gods presence already in that future, because to know there will not be suffering is to have your presence there in feeling, not just in vision.

Or if you take into account his eyes go before us, then you can grasp the reality.

You need to stop doubting.

 

[lrs68]

Translation shopping or Bible rewriting doesn't work for successful logic trains.

It's the very thing that got Stephan killed when he used the Septuagint instead of Hebrew scriptures for his dissertation right before he got stoned.
I thought Stephen's dissertation was accurate even though he used a mixture of summaries and quotes of the Septuagint. And the Septuagint was considered a "warped" and "unholy" translation.

Biblica Hebraica Stuttengartensia *BHS" for short is a suitable collection of the Tenakh. However....
Hebrew is a verb based metaphoric language that does not translate completely or accurately into a noun based literal language. And by using it exclusively you absolutely break the second commandment proclaimed by Jesus of "Love your neighbor as yourself."
And
The other imperative of Jesus to call no one else "Rabbi" meaning that they must come under the tutelage of a religious leader (you) to understand the scriptures or more succinctly: Find out what God has said.

Kapeesh?

I was raised on it in a home that spoke several languages and I am aware there are translations in the English language that have a good concept of the original Hebrew. Just like he did anyone can search and find a translation different to be confrontational.

I understand your analogy with Stephen but Hellenized Greeks forcing Scribes to translate which they skewed purposely wasn't the original language God chose to begin with.

Ultimately translations were bound to happen throughout the generations but it's not difficult remaining true to the original text unless there's an agenda involved.

 

[PaulThomson]

This is a really interesting response, and it makes sense. How did you figure all that out?

In the 2000s and 2010 I spent some considerable time discussing theology on CARM. In contentions between unitarians and trinitarians, for example, I noticed that both sides were usually so invested in winning the argument, that they would never concede that any of their proof-texts were ambiguous, and could be reasonably interpreted as being compatible with either side, but did not therefore prove either side. Trying my best not to impose any presuppositions into the texts under consideration, I would look at the original Greek and Hebrew and the context to determine the range of possible meanings of a text, and I would sometimes point out to unitarians that they were overreaching and making exclusive claims beyond what the text actually says, and sometimes I would do the same to trinitarians. Over time, I developed variant perspectives on theological themes that I believed conformed better to what the scriptures actually said than the theories that others were championing and claiming were orthodoxy (right teaching). I would share my perspective, placing it in the crucible, to see if others could see what I was seeing, or maybe could demonstrate it wrong. I found that I would sometimes be accused of embracing some heresy or other I had never heard of: e.g. kenoticism, or open theism or some other supposed heresy. When I looked up the so-called heretical theory, I might sometimes find that I had indeed drifted in my thinking toward the said "heresy" through reasoning from the Greek and Hebrew scriptures.

I have continued to use this method of investigating what scripture is saying, and have found it preferable to handing over sense-making of scripture to other professed experts in theology or some tradition to which we are supposedly supposed to defer. I choose to rely on the Holy Spirit illuminating the words He actually inspired in Greek and Hebrew and Chaldee, rather than to men who may have confirmation biases and private agendas influencing the way they explain the meaning of scripture. I don't accept any teaching based on who is giving it, but rather I compare all teaching to the scriptures being used to justify the claims. If the scriptural texts do not directly implicate the teaching, I do not need to accept the teaching, no matter who the teacher is.

I applied this methodology to the texts irs based his/her opinions on. and I simply typed the interpretation that seemed to logically come out of the text and context. As I was doing this ,the Holy Spirit pointed me to other scriptures that were examples of how my understanding of Isaiah's words had played out historically, confirming my understanding was compatible with the rest of scripture.


I appreciate your letting me know that you could sense my explanation resonating with the rest of scripture. I an arena where most are dyed in the wool champions of this or that teacher or tradition, one does not often read such concessions from fellow students of the Word who are willing to consider ideas that are outside of their own box. Thanks.

 

[lrs68]

The most reliable source is the ESV?

This Site uses that so it's bound to be presented just by typing Book, Chapter, and Verse.

 

[PaulThomson]

This is a really interesting response, and it makes sense. How did you figure all that out?

Rev 21:3
And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.
Rev 21:4
‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

I have already agreed that God can and does sometimes decide on ends/goals that will be in the future and has the wisdom and power to direct history enough to fulfil those plans. One cannot, however, logically deduce that every aspect of the future is either foreknown or planned by God, simply because He tells us of some details He has determined to make happen.