Molinism: Is there scripture that supports it?

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Because a common objection from critics is…"since God knows all, I wish I was never born if God knew I was going to be lost before he ever made the universe. Why would He allow someone like Hitler to be born, knowing he’d kill millions?”

Typically, the answer you will get from people who identify as followers of Jesus is knowing is not controlling or forcing (and that is true) but it doesn’t answer the question of “why?”

If God willed that none encroach on His will, would He then 'feel' free to encroach on any others' of which He had granted the privilege in the first place? I think that we come willing is important enough to God that He is willing to suffer wills such as that of Hitler, especially in confidence of His own capacity for remedial resolution for collateral damages which might occur from that allowance.

Hope I was able to articulate my idea about it clearly enough. I gave it my best.
 
If God willed that none encroach on His will, would He then 'feel' free to encroach on any others' of which He had granted the privilege in the first place? I think that we come willing is important enough to God that He is willing to suffer wills such as that of Hitler, especially in confidence of His own capacity for remedial resolution for collateral damages which might occur from that allowance.

Hope I was able to articulate my idea about it clearly enough. I gave it my best.
I appreciate you giving your best.
 
None of those texts say God knows everybody's tomorrow.

The context of 1 John 3:20
1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love (ἀγαπῶμεν present active subjunctive, let us be loving in the present) in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
1Jo 3:19 And hereby we know that we are (ἐσμέν, present active) of the truth, and shall assure (future active indicative) our hearts before him.
1Jo 3:20 For if our heart condemn (καταγινώσκῃ, present active subjunctive) us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth (γινώσκει, present active indicative, [God] is knowing in the present) all things.
1Jo 3:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn (καταγινώσκῃ, present active subjunctive, is condemning in the present) us not, then have we confidence toward God.

John is clearly focused on the present attitudes and behaviour and the believers, that we should be loving others practically and sincerely in the present, and not just professing to love others (v. 18).
This sincere practical love for others is the witness and assurance that we are of the truth (V. 19)
Then he says that if in the present we know of one or more things we have done in our past or are doing in our present (not in our future, because we have not yet performed our future choices and actions) that our conscience condemns us over - and we do not know everything about our past and our present - God knows everything about your past and present. He knows all the things you would feel guilty over, if you could remember them. The future is irrelevant to the context of John's argument. It certainly says nothing remotely like "God knows all your tomorrow or all your future."

Also 1 John 2:20
1Jo 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jo 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1Jo 2:20
But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
1Jo 2:21
I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

Here John says we know all things, so clearly John's idea in this letter of knowing all things does not include knowing all the future.
 
None of those texts say God knows everybody's tomorrow.

The context of 1 John 3:20
1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love (ἀγαπῶμεν present active subjunctive, let us be loving in the present) in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
1Jo 3:19 And hereby we know that we are (ἐσμέν, present active) of the truth, and shall assure (future active indicative) our hearts before him.
1Jo 3:20 For if our heart condemn (καταγινώσκῃ, present active subjunctive) us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth (γινώσκει, present active indicative, [God] is knowing in the present) all things.
1Jo 3:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn (καταγινώσκῃ, present active subjunctive, is condemning in the present) us not, then have we confidence toward God.

John is clearly focused on the present attitudes and behaviour and the believers, that we should be loving others practically and sincerely in the present, and not just professing to love others (v. 18).
This sincere practical love for others is the witness and assurance that we are of the truth (V. 19)
Then he says that if in the present we know of one or more things we have done in our past or are doing in our present (not in our future, because we have not yet performed our future choices and actions) that our conscience condemns us over - and we do not know everything about our past and our present - God knows everything about your past and present. He knows all the things you would feel guilty over, if you could remember them. The future is irrelevant to the context of John's argument. It certainly says nothing remotely like "God knows all your tomorrow or all your future."

Also 1 John 2:20
1Jo 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jo 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1Jo 2:20
But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
1Jo 2:21
I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

Here John says we know all things, so clearly John's idea in this letter of knowing all things does not include knowing all the future.
Ok.
 
What about 1 John 3:20; Isaiah 46:9-11; Mt. 10:29-30; Ps. 139; Heb. 4:13?

Isa 46:6
They lavish gold out of the bag, and weigh silver in the balance, and hire a goldsmith; and he maketh it a god: they fall down, yea, they worship.
Isa 46:7
They bear him upon the shoulder, they carry him, and set him in his place, and he standeth; from his place shall he not remove: yea, one shall cry unto him, yet can he not answer, nor save him out of his trouble.
Isa 46:8
Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors.
Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Isa 46:11
Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Here Isaiah is rebuking men who make an idol out of gold or silver and fall down and worship it, when it cannot move itself from where men place it, but needs to be carried here and there by men; and they cry to it when it cannot answer them nor rescue them from trouble.
Then Isaiah reminds the Israelites how, unlike the immobile and powerless idols, God has been able to speak from the beginning, when he said - "Let there be light..." And declaring the end (the consequence) from the beginning (before the action is taken that brings the predicted consequence - e.g.
And He was able to speak saying, Gen 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die (literally, to die you will be dying, you will start to degenerate until your degeneration leads to your physical death.)

And He spoke telling the serpent, Gen 3:14
And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Gen 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. (An example of God declaring from ancient times the things that are not yet done, i.e. declaring the consequences (the end) for satan from the beginning in Adam's day, but consequences which were not yet done in Isaiah's day.

Unlike idols which cannot warn of consequences before they happen, but men foolishly rely on to rescue them from consequences of their actions after the consequences happen, God speaks to warn what will happen if men do X, Y or Z, and then has the power to cause those consequences if men do X, Y or Z.

God does not mention anything about knowing what the consequences (the end) will be because He knows the future exhaustively. He credits His predicted consequences happening to the fact that He makes them happen them, not that He knows how everything will unfold.
 
What about 1 John 3:20; Isaiah 46:9-11; Mt. 10:29-30; Ps. 139; Heb. 4:13?

In Matt. 10:29-30, Jesus says -
Mat 10:27
What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
Mat 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mat 10:29
Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
Mat 10:30
But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Mat 10:31
Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

What does Jesus mean by "and one [sparrow] shall not fall on the ground without your Father." The text does not say " without your Father's will," as some paraphrase it and then claim it teaches that God decrees the exact time of death of every sparrow.
No, Jesus seems to be talking about no sparrow dying without God knowing it has died, or possibly without God empathising or sympathising with the sparrow. Jesus seems to be describing God as being cognizant of all the present, not God decreeing or knowing all the future, because He then goes on to talk about God knowing the number of hairs on your head in the present, not God knowing how many hairs you will have in a week's time. His point is that nothing happens to us that God does not see at the time, in the present when it happens because He is present with everything, even sparrows, in the present. Don't worry about being killed by men. God will see your death and will not forget you, and will take you to himself at death, and raise your body back to life at the resurrection. Jesus does not mention knowing all our tomorrows in this text either.
 
What about 1 John 3:20; Isaiah 46:9-11; Mt. 10:29-30; Ps. 139; Heb. 4:13?
Psalm 139 is about God seeing the development of the foetus in the womb and rnoticing and remembering its daily development. It is about God presently knowing us from observation of us in the present. I does not talk about God already knowing what we will become daily over the entire course of our lives.

If you disagree, please highlight the particular verses in Ps 139 that you think specifically tell us that God knows all our tomorrows in exhaustive detail.
 
What about 1 John 3:20; Isaiah 46:9-11; Mt. 10:29-30; Ps. 139; Heb. 4:13?
Heb 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Heb 4:13
Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight (enOpion: autou in front of Him): but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

This seems to me to make sense if one considers the author to be professing God's exhaustive knowledge only of the past and present. One does no need to include an exhaustive knowledge of the future in the "all things" for the text to make perfect sense. And as we saw in 1 John, "all things" did not mean all the future in 1 John 2:20, so there is no reason or need to assume that it includes all the future in 1 John 3:20, or here in Heb. 4:13.

So, it appears to be as I said, there is no biblical text where God is attributed with exhaustive foreknowledge of the future, therefore no Berean needs to submit to any man's claims that God has such an attribute as exhaustive foreknowledge of the future..
 
Isa 46:6
They lavish gold out of the bag, and weigh silver in the balance, and hire a goldsmith; and he maketh it a god: they fall down, yea, they worship.
Isa 46:7
They bear him upon the shoulder, they carry him, and set him in his place, and he standeth; from his place shall he not remove: yea, one shall cry unto him, yet can he not answer, nor save him out of his trouble.
Isa 46:8
Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors.
Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Isa 46:11
Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Here Isaiah is rebuking men who make an idol out of gold or silver and fall down and worship it, when it cannot move itself from where men place it, but needs to be carried here and there by men; and they cry to it when it cannot answer them nor rescue them from trouble.
Then Isaiah reminds the Israelites how, unlike the immobile and powerless idols, God has been able to speak from the beginning, when he said - "Let there be light..." And declaring the end (the consequence) from the beginning (before the action is taken that brings the predicted consequence - e.g.
And He was able to speak saying, Gen 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die (literally, to die you will be dying, you will start to degenerate until your degeneration leads to your physical death.)

And He spoke telling the serpent, Gen 3:14
And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Gen 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. (An example of God declaring from ancient times the things that are not yet done, i.e. declaring the consequences (the end) for satan from the beginning in Adam's day, but consequences which were not yet done in Isaiah's day.

Unlike idols which cannot warn of consequences before they happen, but men foolishly rely on to rescue them from consequences of their actions after the consequences happen, God speaks to warn what will happen if men do X, Y or Z, and then has the power to cause those consequences if men do X, Y or Z.

God does not mention anything about knowing what the consequences (the end) will be because He knows the future exhaustively. He credits His predicted consequences happening to the fact that He makes them happen them, not that He knows how everything will unfold.
This is a really interesting response, and it makes sense. How did you figure all that out?
 
This is a really interesting response, and it makes sense. How did you figure all that out?
he's only posting scripture that looks as if God doesn't know the future, and ignoring scripture where God does talk about knowing the future, even in the scripture it appears that God doesn't know, it doesn't mean that he doesn't because it's not clearly written in the scripture in the scripture he's posting, because time and time again we see God speaking to you without revealing the future but hinting your future and your outcome.

It's why prophet's where so very important to people, because they could deliver messages that made people believe they had a future with God.

He doesn't have an answer for God changing the future of king Hezekiah and giving him 15 more years to live either
 
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Psalm 139 is about God seeing the development of the foetus in the womb and rnoticing and remembering its daily development. It is about God presently knowing us from observation of us in the present. I does not talk about God already knowing what we will become daily over the entire course of our lives.

If you disagree, please highlight the particular verses in Ps 139 that you think specifically tell us that God knows all our tomorrows in exhaustive detail.
It doesn't say the things you want them to say,

Because you can't see a different understanding lining up with an understanding you have.

Its Like God changing the future of all mankind to only live for no more than 120 years because mankind was living a lot longer than that at once along a time.

This means that when your knitted together in your mother's womb he changes how long you can live for, setting your future and changing your future and knowing all your days. Because he can change your future.

It's called his living miracles
 
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he's only posting scripture that looks as if God doesn't know the future, and ignoring scripture where God does talk about knowing the future, even in the scripture it appears that God doesn't know, it doesn't mean that he doesn't because it's not clearly written in the scripture in the scripture he's posting, because time and time again we see God speaking to you without revealing the future but hinting your future and your outcome.

It's why prophet's where so very important to people, because they could deliver messages that made people believe they had a future with God.

He doesn't have an answer for God changing the future of king Hezekiah and giving him 15 more years to live either
You and I both would agree that God’s word doesn’t contradict. You and I would also agree God doesn’t want anyone to be lost. So perhaps you can help me harmonize that with if God knows the fate of our souls before He created the world, then why would He have some to be born, when He is already knowing they’d grow up to die lost?
 
You and I both would agree that God’s word doesn’t contradict. You and I would also agree God doesn’t want anyone to be lost. So perhaps you can help me harmonize that with if God knows the fate of our souls before He created the world, then why would He have some to be born, when He is already knowing they’d grow up to die lost?
Because everyone has the chance to have there future changed by God. People who are born with sickness disease in my view is down to Satan changing the future, with his way. Or man made error, God holds every life precious, psalms 139 genesis 1

But then people will say well why did God allow satan to live, well God doesn't allow him to live, he's dead in good spirit, and that's the outcome for those who follow him and remain an atheist.



,
 
You and I both would agree that God’s word doesn’t contradict. You and I would also agree God doesn’t want anyone to be lost. So perhaps you can help me harmonize that with if God knows the fate of our souls before He created the world, then why would He have some to be born, when He is already knowing they’d grow up to die lost?

That is a good question, and I think the answer must include at least these two truths:

1. God's foreknowledge does not determine that some souls will die lost. God loves and wants to save everyone (John 3:16, 1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11, Acts 17:26-28). Christ died to show God’s love and the possible salvation of all (Rom. 5:6-8) including His enemies (ungodly, atheist, anti-Christ).

2. God's hell is just, because lost souls reap only what they have sown before being destroyed. God is just (2Thes. 1:6a, cf. Rom. 3:25-26 & 9:14, Deut. 32:4, Psa. 36:6, Luke 11:42, Rev. 15:3). All explanations of reality and interpretations of Scripture should conform to this certitude: “The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.” (Psa. 145:17) The Judge is just, and because God is loving and just, He does not tempt, trick, confuse or otherwise contribute to anyone’s sinfulness. On the contrary, God must be doing all that He can do without abrogating justice or volition (MFW) to influence people not to be deceived and become self-condemned (Jam. 1:13-17, Tit. 3:11, Isa. 45:19).

This realization should steer us away from the problematic opinion (a la Augustine via John Calvin) that God predestines most people for hell and lead us to affirm free will as a paradoxical fact (Deut. 30:19). It is paradoxical, because it affirms both that God is sovereign and that God chooses not to control moral thinking, because doing so would nullify human responsibility for sin, making the biblical revelation of salvation based on repentance irrelevant and absurd.

Evil people punish/torture themselves by experiencing delayed karma, just as those who experience appropriate justice during this earthly existence also punish themselves or reap what they have sown and send themselves to jail. This view makes souls responsible for breaking the rules rather than blaming evil on the judges (or Judge) who enforce the rules.

The purpose of earthly punishment is to promote repentance, but the reason for retribution in hell is to attain justice. It is difficult to imagine, but somehow even someone as evil as Hitler will receive perfect justice, perhaps experiencing the agony of the millions of deaths he caused in accordance with the principal of “eye for eye” (MT 5:38), after which their souls are destroyed forever (per John 17:12, Rom. 9:22, Gal. 6:8, Phil. 3:19, 2Thes. 1:9, 2Pet. 3:7 & Rev. 20:13-14).
 
Not sure what God you serve but Mine made every day for me that I will ever live meaning He knows them all before I live them.

Psalm 139:16 ("in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me")

What is my substance in context? My unformed body in the womb. My members, parts of my body, were made to develop exactly how God inteded. You are reading way more into this passage than what is there.

16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; And in thy book all my members were written, ||Which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
 
You and I both would agree that God’s word doesn’t contradict. You and I would also agree God doesn’t want anyone to be lost. So perhaps you can help me harmonize that with if God knows the fate of our souls before He created the world, then why would He have some to be born, when He is already knowing they’d grow up to die lost?
May I ask which are you concerned by most people being born to be lost or people being born to be saved ?

Either way if your born to be lost why would you hold God accountable for that ?

Because God knows your future he shouldn't have let you be born in the first place ? Is this your understanding.

Well ok people born with sickness and diseases should we help them or let them get on with it ?
 
Can you post scripture stating this? Thanks.
What is my substance in context? My unformed body in the womb. My members, parts of my body, were made to develop exactly how God inteded. You are reading way more into this passage than what is there.

16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; And in thy book all my members were written, ||Which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
Unlike YOU, I use a most reliable source for the Old Testament called the Tanakh which existed literally thousands of years before the kjv.

So we will stick with the translation in which is factual for Verse 16, MINE!!
 
May I ask which are you concerned by most people being born to be lost or people being born to be saved ?

Either way if your born to be lost why would you hold God accountable for that ?

Because God knows your future he shouldn't have let you be born in the first place ? Is this your understanding.

Well ok people born with sickness and diseases should we help them or let them get on with it ?

Love thy neighbor as thyself.
A "neighbor" is someone in your insulah. A collection of houses built onto a central patriarch's house with a courtyard. But also includes the outcast "Samaritan" according to Jesus. So....YES! But not necessarily if they are a proclaimed atheist.

THIS:

All physical infirmities/deformities were caused ultimately by sin.

Being born into a Christian family or community gives people a better chance at being Christian.

So....sin must determine all faults of unbelief or illness in a person.

Then....is it individual sin or corporate sin that causes these life altering problems?

And we see this story in John when the Apostles asked Jesus, "Who sinned to cause this man to be born blind?".

And it's the same as the more modern Calvinistic question that's been asked for centuries before the internet was invented.

And as far as the Nature of God....
A.W. Tozer's "Knowledge of the Holy" has been the standard of Attributes of God as well as all the "omni-" terms used by people to describe God's nature and character. It's not an easy read by a long shot. But it's accuracy hasn't been challenged successfully. His style of writing has. (hard read and difficult to understand but otherwise the substance of his writing remains unchallenged.
 
Unlike YOU, I use a most reliable source for the Old Testament called the Tanakh which existed literally thousands of years before the kjv.

So we will stick with the translation in which is factual for Verse 16, MINE!!
Translation shopping or Bible rewriting doesn't work for successful logic trains.

It's the very thing that got Stephan killed when he used the Septuagint instead of Hebrew scriptures for his dissertation right before he got stoned.
I thought Stephen's dissertation was accurate even though he used a mixture of summaries and quotes of the Septuagint. And the Septuagint was considered a "warped" and "unholy" translation.

Biblica Hebraica Stuttengartensia *BHS" for short is a suitable collection of the Tenakh. However....
Hebrew is a verb based metaphoric language that does not translate completely or accurately into a noun based literal language. And by using it exclusively you absolutely break the second commandment proclaimed by Jesus of "Love your neighbor as yourself."
And
The other imperative of Jesus to call no one else "Rabbi" meaning that they must come under the tutelage of a religious leader (you) to understand the scriptures or more succinctly: Find out what God has said.

Kapeesh?