WHAT????? CHURCH FATHERS WERE PRETRIB ???
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Irenaeus is good for understanding what the Valentinian gnostics believed vis-a-vis what Christians believed
Re read it.
You are reading into it.
The BIBLE says "revealed".
Look up "revealed" in the dictionary
Then look up "in power".
I have ALWAYS BELIEVED the AC will be revealed , and then a few days later the rapture.
That is still a pretrib rapture.
Your doctrine has you changing it to say he is in power for years, and then the rapture.
But your doctrine has huge obstacles to overcome. Namely that the AC kills anyone refusing the mark.
Which, if you think about it, completely destroys any hope of a postribulation rapture.( all saints are martyred)
Another impossibility, of a post trib rapture is the fact that there is a gathering in revelation 14:14, which is during the tribulation, and before the second coming of revelation 19.( so under your doctrine the dead in christ do not rise first.)
Those 2 items alone make your doctrine impossible.
Can any of the church fathers help you when we see that the AC kills all refusing the mark, and that the bible says "Every man woman and child on the planet, whether bond or free, receives the mark."
Can the church fathers get you out of that predicament?
What about the "one coming"?
Can any of the church fathers help you when we see a gathering during the tribulation, in rev 14:14, which is years before the second coming, which means your doctrine places the dead in Christ NOT RISING FIRST, BUT INDEED, Rising years after the gathering of revelation 14.
Maybe appeal to the the church fathers that are guiding you?
It is worse than that.
The church fathers are the foundation to all postribbers.
That is how they easily are deceived.
Why try to silence your challenger.?
You do worry way too much.
I use the bible as my base.
For example, ask a postribber to unpack rev14:14.
Watch what they do to it.
( remember, the BIBLE says the dead in Christ shall rise first)
Postribbers have the dead in Christ rising at the end of the trib.
SMH.
Then get one of them to unpack the fact that all on the planet take the mark.
Watch them change that one also.
So that is why your trusting in men's doctrines is a really bad place to be.
Jesus chose Disciples to carry on His work.
Those Disciples did as Jesus taught them and made new Disciples and explained to them in their own words what Jesus told them.
These men then wrote those things down.
So, if anyone is against that it reveals the level of foolishness that person lives by.
Those Disciples did as Jesus taught them and made new Disciples and explained to them in their own words what Jesus told them.
These men then wrote those things down.
So, if anyone is against that it reveals the level of foolishness that person lives by.
From google:
""Key aspects of Irenaeus's view:
Transformation: The bread and wine are no longer mere bread and wine but the Eucharist, having heavenly and earthly realities.
Real Presence: He argued against those who denied Christ's physical reality, stating that nourishing our bodies with the Eucharist connects us to Christ's own flesh and blood, giving our own bodies hope for resurrection.
Connection to Incarnation: For Irenaeus, the Eucharist mirrors the Incarnation, making Christ's physical body and blood truly present to feed His followers""
The church fathers were a flawed bunch for sure.
If you don't believe that taking Communion is receiving the literal body and blood of Yeshua then you are not Saved!!
I'll stick with first hand knowledge directly from God's Word.
Not all of the so called "church fathers" taught what the Lord teaches in His Word.
Those following the so called "church fathers" are engaging in idolatry
Salvation can only be found b y walking with the Lord, not so called "church fathers"
Besides, Jesus said call no man on earth Father (Matthew 23:7-12)
Too bad you have a problem with following the Lord and accepting what He said
God's Word is very very clear, the catching away of the church does not happen until after the man of sin is revealed:
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
No, the 7 year tribulation period starts when the man of sin is revealed
The first part of the 7 year tribulation period is somewhat peaceful and nothing like the second half of the tribulation period
No, I said the rapture happens sometime after the man of sin is revealed.
We'll have to wait and see how long after.
It's the Lord's doctrine not mine and the anti-christ is not going to start whacking people immediately after he is revealed to the world.
God's Word says the dead in Christ rise first.
I never said they was not true.
Jesus put God's Word in written form.
It's called scripture, maybe you have heard of it?
Any and all writings that are not scripture is for amusement purposes only.
Yes because many of them were deceived and taught things Jesus did not put in His Canon.
That's His Word for those in Rio Linda
You think you are chewing on a chunk of Jesus' flesh? You think you are a cannibal???
You think you are drinking Jesus' actual Blood? You think you are a vampire?
And WHY do you people refuse to submit a sample of your juice and crackers for scientific analysis?
You know why, because if you did the scientific analysis would prove you just minchin on juice and crackers!
QUOTE
""God's Word is very very clear, the catching away of the church does not happen until after the man of sin is revealed:""
Lol
I already corrected you on this and you repeated the exact same thing.
The AC is "REVEALED" before he takes power.
You are insisting that is a mistranslation.
He is revealed PRETRIB AND THE RAPTURE IS PRETRIB AS JESUS TAUGHT.
QUOTE
""God's Word says the dead in Christ rise first.
I never said they was not true.""
Well if you are a postribber then you you believe in "one coming"
That means you believe Rev 14:14 is the same thing as Rev 19's glorious return on white horses.
IOW you have the dead in Christ rising at the white horses coming AFTER the GT.
In Rev 14:14 Jesus comes and gathers the elect DURING THE TRIB.
..so , if you are a postribber, you have the dead in Christ PRECEDED by the mid trib gathering of rev 14:14.
QUOTE
""It's the Lord's doctrine not mine and the anti-christ is not going to start whacking people immediately after he is revealed to the world""
The AC comes into power riding a white horse with a bow.
He comes "CONQUERING "
AHEM...KILLING.
So yes God's word is true and it is not one huge mistranslation. Rev 6 is the hell released on earth at the seals
The first seal after the horses is MARTYRS FOR JESUS.
Rev 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Note that the MARTYRS are not allowed into the general population UNTIL THEIR NUMBER IS FULFILLED.
So this is at the beginning of the GT.
The first thing to happen, after the horsemen, are ONLY 144,000 ETHNIC JEWS SEALED.
BEFORE THAT, BILLIONS of saints are wiped from the earth, MARTYRED, and are in THE GENERAL POPULATION of heaven right away at the start of the GT.
Remember the martyrs before the trib are confined to under the throne ...UNTIL THEIR NUMBERS ARE FULFILLED
Rev 6
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
.
Note that ONLY the ethnic Jews are sealed AGAINST THE FLYING SCORPIONS.
...Indicating the church is completely removed and martyred.
Sorry.
I am not catholic.
You are adhering to gross heresy.
Ever read fox's book of martyrs?.
Thousands of Christians died for not worshipping a cup and loaf of bread as you do.
...and your religion burned them alive and their writings.
I had no idea of the extent of your error.
You need to investigate that idolatry and make massive changes.
Well we now know Irenaeus worshipped a cup and a loaf of bread.
....the guy you follow .
So no, you are really off.
Way way off.
I understand that you don't know but it is 100% symbolic and that is what Iraneaus said that you PURPOSELY Maligned just like your original post claiming that the Church Father's believed something they never claimed.
I guess I will now treat you the same as I have any other liar from point forward.
LoL! No, you tried to claim that the Lord LIED in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
Reality called and wants to know when you and your buddy are going to pull your head out!
I never said I was post trib
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 tells us the rapture happens mid trib
Well then prepare thyself to DIE
Then you should stop spouting your mistranslation