WHAT????? CHURCH FATHERS WERE PRETRIB ???

[Psalm1]

The early Church Fathers largely believed in a "rapture" (a catching up of saints to meet Christ), but it was generally understood as a post-tribulation event, occurring at the Second Coming alongside resurrection and judgment, not a secret pre-tribulation event as taught in modern dispensationalism. They saw the believers' gathering as linked to the final coming of Christ after significant tribulation and the Antichrist's rise, a view differing from the modern concept of a secret, separate rapture before a seven-year tribulation period.

Key Points on Early Church Views:
No Pre-Trib Rapture: The distinct pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is a 19th-century development by John Nelson Darby and not found in early writings.

One Event:
The fathers saw the resurrection, gathering (rapture), and Christ's visible return as one combined, climactic event at the end of the age.

Post-Tribulation Timing:
They expected the gathering to happen after or at the end of the tribulation, often with the defeat of the Antichrist.

Imminence:
While post-trib, they still held a strong belief in the imminence of Christ's return, encouraging preparedness.

Key Figures:
Writers like Iraneaus, Rufinus, Victorinus, Tyconius, and Cyprian held views consistent with a post-tribulation gathering or a tribulation period before Christ's return.

In essence, the early church anticipated a glorious, visible gathering and resurrection at Christ's return, which concluded the tribulation, differing from the modern, distinct, secret pre-tribulation rapture.

Lol.
Not only was the Darby origination lie debunked years ago, but the vid I posted has many more church fathers with the pretrib rapture view.

You are way way off...and have been for years.
Jesus taught a pretrib rapture, as does the bible.
Read the 2 escape verses by Jesus, and ask yourself why postribbers omit them and all the other pretrib rapture verses.

 

[Psalm1]

Well as my pastor once said, you can be pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib.

He said he was pan-trib. It's all going to pan out in the end so why worry about it.

The bible ends with the bride calling out to the groom.
The only group doing that is the pretribbers.

There are no postribbers calling out to the groom.
They await the trib.

 

[Psalm1]

Yet this is 2025 and YouTube videos overrule what they wrote they believed?

That's like me saying: "never investigate, since faulty men have established your beliefs 2000 years ago."

Investigation is your enemy?

 

[Psalm1]

The early Church Fathers largely believed in a "rapture" (a catching up of saints to meet Christ), but it was generally understood as a post-tribulation event, occurring at the Second Coming alongside resurrection and judgment, not a secret pre-tribulation event as taught in modern dispensationalism. They saw the believers' gathering as linked to the final coming of Christ after significant tribulation and the Antichrist's rise, a view differing from the modern concept of a secret, separate rapture before a seven-year tribulation period.

Key Points on Early Church Views:
No Pre-Trib Rapture: The distinct pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is a 19th-century development by John Nelson Darby and not found in early writings.

One Event:
The fathers saw the resurrection, gathering (rapture), and Christ's visible return as one combined, climactic event at the end of the age.

Post-Tribulation Timing:
They expected the gathering to happen after or at the end of the tribulation, often with the defeat of the Antichrist.

Imminence:
While post-trib, they still held a strong belief in the imminence of Christ's return, encouraging preparedness.

Key Figures:
Writers like Iraneaus, Rufinus, Victorinus, Tyconius, and Cyprian held views consistent with a post-tribulation gathering or a tribulation period before Christ's return.

In essence, the early church anticipated a glorious, visible gathering and resurrection at Christ's return, which concluded the tribulation, differing from the modern, distinct, secret pre-tribulation rapture.

There is no resurrection at the second coming.
Besides that Rev 14:14 has a gathering YEARS BFORE the second coming of rev 19 on white horses.
( think about it. Your doctrine has the dead in Christ RAISED AFTER the living of rev 14:14)

Your doctrine and dead church fathers doctrines are DOCTRINES VIA OMISSION.

Read Rev 14:14 and get a postribber to unpack it.
Watch the blatant hack job they do on God's word.
Your doctrine DEPENDS on twisting rev14:14 and the ones "taken/left behind"
Get a postrib to unpack those two passages.
It is comical how creative they get.

 

[Psalm1]

The early Church Fathers largely believed in a "rapture" (a catching up of saints to meet Christ), but it was generally understood as a post-tribulation event, occurring at the Second Coming alongside resurrection and judgment, not a secret pre-tribulation event as taught in modern dispensationalism. They saw the believers' gathering as linked to the final coming of Christ after significant tribulation and the Antichrist's rise, a view differing from the modern concept of a secret, separate rapture before a seven-year tribulation period.

Key Points on Early Church Views:
No Pre-Trib Rapture: The distinct pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is a 19th-century development by John Nelson Darby and not found in early writings.

One Event:
The fathers saw the resurrection, gathering (rapture), and Christ's visible return as one combined, climactic event at the end of the age.

Post-Tribulation Timing:
They expected the gathering to happen after or at the end of the tribulation, often with the defeat of the Antichrist.

Imminence:
While post-trib, they still held a strong belief in the imminence of Christ's return, encouraging preparedness.

Key Figures:
Writers like Iraneaus, Rufinus, Victorinus, Tyconius, and Cyprian held views consistent with a post-tribulation gathering or a tribulation period before Christ's return.

In essence, the early church anticipated a glorious, visible gathering and resurrection at Christ's return, which concluded the tribulation, differing from the modern, distinct, secret pre-tribulation rapture.

QUOTE
""Key Points on Early Church Views:
No Pre-Trib Rapture: The distinct pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is a 19th-century development by John Nelson Darby and not found in early writings.""

The reason you are going by what you are told is because you are too lazy to investigate.

You are lied to twice.
Once by men dead 2000 years.
Then again by your lazy teachers who omit due to their own failure to investigate.

I see anyone not actually watching 5 minutes of the vid as putting their heads in a wash tub and screaming... " la la la la la la la la..."
" I can't take it!"
"Please please please ....no investigation "

 

[lrs68]

Lol.
Not only was the Darby origination lie debunked years ago, but the vid I posted has many more church fathers with the pretrib rapture view.

You are way way off...and have been for years.
Jesus taught a pretrib rapture, as does the bible.
Read the 2 escape verses by Jesus, and ask yourself why postribbers omit them and all the other pretrib rapture verses.

There is no resurrection at the second coming.
Besides that Rev 14:14 has a gathering YEARS BFORE the second coming of rev 19 on white horses.
( think about it. Your doctrine has the dead in Christ RAISED AFTER the living of rev 14:14)

Your doctrine and dead church fathers doctrines are DOCTRINES VIA OMISSION.

Read Rev 14:14 and get a postribber to unpack it.
Watch the blatant hack job they do on God's word.
Your doctrine DEPENDS on twisting rev14:14 and the ones "taken/left behind"
Get a postrib to unpack those two passages.
It is comical how creative they get.

QUOTE
""Key Points on Early Church Views:
No Pre-Trib Rapture: The distinct pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is a 19th-century development by John Nelson Darby and not found in early writings.""

The reason you are going by what you are told is because you are too lazy to investigate.

You are lied to twice.
Once by men dead 2000 years.
Then again by your lazy teachers who omit due to their own failure to investigate.

I see anyone not actually watching 5 minutes of the vid as putting their heads in a wash tub and screaming... " la la la la la la la la..."
" I can't take it!"
"Please please please ....no investigation "

Unlike You, there's hard copies of the Church Fathers writings and there's the Books they wrote that have the original copy inside them.

I watched your video and reminded me when Yeshua said beware of false prophets and wolves in sheep clothing.

Takes a real smo to get duped as bad as it's apparent that you are.

We call that hook, line, and sinker...

 

[Psalm1]

Unlike You, there's hard copies of the Church Fathers writings and there's the Books they wrote that have the original copy inside them.

I watched your video and reminded me when Yeshua said beware of false prophets and wolves in sheep clothing.

Takes a real smo to get duped as bad as it's apparent that you are.

We call that hook, line, and sinker...

So your sole argument is from ancient men.
Got it.
No...wait... you also call your opponent names and use God's word to falsely malign.

That is a great basis .
No..not at all.
Like I said investigation is not your enemy.
But in your case, I suppose it is.

 

[Psalm1]

Unlike You, there's hard copies of the Church Fathers writings and there's the Books they wrote that have the original copy inside them.

I watched your video and reminded me when Yeshua said beware of false prophets and wolves in sheep clothing.

Takes a real smo to get duped as bad as it's apparent that you are.

We call that hook, line, and sinker...

Rev 14:14.
Debunks your church fathers doctrine.

Have you bothered to look it up?

THEY NEVER addressed it.
I would venture you have never factored it in either since you are basing your views off of men.

 

[Psalm1]

The early Church Fathers largely believed in a "rapture" (a catching up of saints to meet Christ), but it was generally understood as a post-tribulation event, occurring at the Second Coming alongside resurrection and judgment, not a secret pre-tribulation event as taught in modern dispensationalism. They saw the believers' gathering as linked to the final coming of Christ after significant tribulation and the Antichrist's rise, a view differing from the modern concept of a secret, separate rapture before a seven-year tribulation period.

Key Points on Early Church Views:
No Pre-Trib Rapture: The distinct pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is a 19th-century development by John Nelson Darby and not found in early writings.

One Event:
The fathers saw the resurrection, gathering (rapture), and Christ's visible return as one combined, climactic event at the end of the age.

Post-Tribulation Timing:
They expected the gathering to happen after or at the end of the tribulation, often with the defeat of the Antichrist.

Imminence:
While post-trib, they still held a strong belief in the imminence of Christ's return, encouraging preparedness.

Key Figures:
Writers like Iraneaus, Rufinus, Victorinus, Tyconius, and Cyprian held views consistent with a post-tribulation gathering or a tribulation period before Christ's return.

In essence, the early church anticipated a glorious, visible gathering and resurrection at Christ's return, which concluded the tribulation, differing from the modern, distinct, secret pre-tribulation rapture.

Some did.
But the video debunks the error that all did.

Postribs have lied for years that the pretrib rapture view started with Darby.

Flat out lied about it.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Some did.
But the video debunks the error that all did.

Postribs have lied for years that the pretrib rapture view started with Darby.

Flat out lied about it.

Why don't you post what the early church fathers wrote that you think pertains to a pretrib rapture so we can discuss it?

 

[DallasMan]

WHAT????? CHURCH FATHERS WERE PRETRIB ???

There is no pre-trib according to God's Word.

The rapture (catching away of the church) happens sometime after the anti-christ is revealed to the world.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

*The phrase ”Gathering together”
Strongs 1997 = from 1996; a complete collection; especially a Christian meeting (for worship): -- assembling (gathering) together.
Strongs 1996 = from 1909 and 4863; to collect upon the same place: KJV -- gather (together).

*The phrase ”Falling Away”
Strongs 646 = feminine of the same as 647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"): KJV -- falling away, forsake.
Strongs 647 = neuter of a (presumed) adjective from a derivative of 868; properly, something separative, i.e. (specially) divorce: KJV -- (writing of) divorcement.
Strongs 868 = from 575 and 2476; to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.: KJV -- depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.

*Same word is translated “forsake” in Acts 21:21 - so this is what the word means: many will forsake the Lord (speaking of those that were Christians but fall away)

Definitions point to the rapture not happening until many who claim to be Christians fall away from the faith, and the anti-christ is revealed

This would mean the traditional pre-trib rapture view could not be correct
where Christians are taken out before the anti-christ is revealed, but instead Christians will be here leading up to the start of the anti-christ coming to power

Some claim the word translated “falling away” really means rapture… if that were true, then 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 would say the rapture won't happen until the rapture happens and the anti-christ be revealed which it does NOT say.

 

[lrs68]

So your sole argument is from ancient men.
Got it.
No...wait... you also call your opponent names and use God's word to falsely malign.

That is a great basis .
No..not at all.
Like I said investigation is not your enemy.
But in your case, I suppose it is.

Rev 14:14.
Debunks your church fathers doctrine.

Have you bothered to look it up?

THEY NEVER addressed it.
I would venture you have never factored it in either since you are basing your views off of men.

Some did.
But the video debunks the error that all did.

Postribs have lied for years that the pretrib rapture view started with Darby.

Flat out lied about it.

You ask if I am taking the words of ancient men?

If you really had a clue you would know that many of the Church Father's were literal and factual Disciples of John, Peter, Paul, and other Disciples of Jesus now Apostles.

If you are believing a source that tells you that the Disciples of the Disciples of Jesus lied about Post Trib then you are someone I want nothing from.

 

[DallasMan]

If you really had a clue you would know that many of the Church Father's were literal and factual Disciples of John, Peter, Paul, and other Disciples of Jesus now Apostles.

We have the Word of the Lord thru the actual Apostles.

So why mess with writings from those who came later when we have the real Word of the Lord in the scriptures.

Writings not in God's Word are not scripture.

 

[Jim62]

Funny how satan uses the time of we believers being called up in the clouds with Christ as a way to get Christians to argue with one another which sometimes leads to anger, and stubborn pride about being right. Not a good thing. I believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and savior and that is all that matters. When it's all said and done we who truly believe will be with God in heaven. All the, pre trib, mid trib, post trib stuff will not matter one bit. Just remember by our faith in Christ we are granted salvation.

 

[DallasMan]

Funny how satan uses the time of we believers being called up in the clouds with Christ as a way to get Christians to argue with one another which sometimes leads to anger, and stubborn pride about being right.

Only the immature ones do that.

 

[lrs68]

We have the Word of the Lord thru the actual Apostles.

So why mess with writings from those who came later when we have the real Word of the Lord in the scriptures.

Writings not in God's Word are not scripture.

The wick is short I see...

The Apostles confirm what Jesus said because they were His Disciples much like the Church Father's confirm the Apostles because They're 3rd generation Disciples.

The Bible confirms the Word many times and a SMART person will do the same.

 

[DallasMan]

The wick is short I see...

Your "wick" is leading you away from what the Lord says.

That's slow

 

[lrs68]

Your "wick" is leading you away from what the Lord says.

That's slow

The Church Father's repeat the Disciples of Jesus. That's confirmation.

 

[DallasMan]

The Church Father's repeat the Disciples of Jesus. That's confirmation.

Not all the time.

Right after Paul left, that's when the wolves moved in and false doctrines started coming in.

My point is, WHY is what the Lord says in scripture not good enough for ya?

Playing around with extra biblical writings leads to deception.

 

[lrs68]

Not all the time.

Right after Paul left, that's when the wolves moved in and false doctrines started coming in.

My point is, WHY is what the Lord says in scripture not good enough for ya?

Playing around with extra biblical writings leads to deception.

John took over Paul's Churches and his own Disciples and it's their words like Polycarp, Irenaeus, and others.