FOUNDATION, the 12 apostles or Pauls?

[Aaron56]

You ARE a rando on the internet though just like me. Seems has nothing to do with it.

Well, we have our senses of our mind informed by our bodies and we have the senses of our spirits informed by the Spirit of God. When Jesus said "My sheep hear my voice" He wasn't talking about physical ears for hearing.

 

[Wansvic]

Oh so you're deciding who Jesus can authorize to forgive sins. Nothing in that passage contradicts other passages. Jesus authorized them to baptize in the name of the father and the and the holy spirit so why couldn't they be authorized to forgive sins in the name of the Father. John notes Jesus breathed on them( the holy Spirit) just like when God breathed across the water in Genesis. I like how you folks just add and subtract at will.

In order to ascertain the truth concerning any topic requires study of the sum of God's word on the subject. (Ps. 119:160)

 

[sawdust]

Acts 2:38 was water baptism in Jesus' name

Which Peter realised 9 chapters later was unnecessary as Christ baptizes with the Spirit.

Acts 11:16
Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

Why would Peter remember that part of Christ's last instructions if nothing was to change regarding baptism?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Which Peter realised 9 chapters later was unnecessary as Christ baptizes with the Spirit.

Acts 11:16
Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

Why would Peter remember that part of Christ's last instructions if nothing was to change regarding baptism?

Now you're just going in circles. Peter was telling a story to people who were criticizing him for hanging around gentiles. Basically:

"I saw the spirit fall on them like I remember it falling on us, so who was I to withhold baptism from them?"

 

[sawdust]

Simple answer, since John baptism was before JESUS ascended and the NT rebirthing process started in Acts 1. No one was ever baptized in JESUS name until then.

I think you getting two things mixed up, being baptized in water which is how we get rid of our sins today is something we have to do.

Being filled with the Holy Ghost (baptized in the spirit) is something JESUS has to do.

If you look at Acts 10 both happened, JESUS filled them, HE did HIS part and Peter put them in the water.

The Gentiles were filled and accepted Peters COMMANMENTS and was baptized.

As JESUS said in John 3:5 need BOTH to ENTER.

Peter in Acts 2:38-39 get baptized and you will be filled with the Holy Ghost.

We can also learn they don't come in that order.

Christ died for our sins. The barrier is removed. You would be making John's baptism which, wasn't for sins but for repentance, more effective than Christ's death. Mk.1:4 Lk.3:3 Acts13:24 Acts 19:4

Yes, and the next chapter (Acts 11) Peter finally remembered what the Lord told him about baptism.

I'm not mixing them up. I'm understanding they were two different baptisms for two different reasons. One (John's in water) was of repentance, a preparatory for the coming Messiah the other was Christ's with the Spirit, one of power for the building of the Church.

Prior to Christ's death the disciples baptized in water continuing John's legacy of preparation to the Jews. After Christ's death, resurrection and ascension, now that it was finished, no more need for John's baptism as Christ stated in His last instructions to the disciples.

Acts 1:5
for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

There is only one baptism for the Church and it is not John's.

Ephesians 4:5
one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

 

[Nedsk]

In order to ascertain the truth concerning any topic requires study of the sum of God's word on the subject. (Ps. 119:160)

And you've decided what Jesus can and cannot authorize. The words are clear and straightforward. YOU added water baptism. Not a good look friend

 

[sawdust]

Acts 11-What was Peter talking about when he said who was he to withstand God AFTER the undeniable evidence of tongues proved the Gentiles had received the indwelling presence of the Spirit?

Acts 15-What requirements did the gospel message presented by Peter include for both Jews and Gentiles?

What is your point in regards to baptism with water and baptism with the Spirit and which baptism is for the Church because I'm failing to see it?

Nothing about water baptism in Acts 15 and Peter makes it clear he agrees with Paul in that we are saved by grace. So again, no idea where you are coming from. You will need to be clearer as to what you are arguing against. Thank you.

Actually the scripture you shared from Acts 11 disputes what you contend.

I see, so you say so therefore it must be true? Bring your argument with your opinion, your opinion alone doesn't cut it.

 

[sawdust]

Now you're just going in circles. Peter was telling a story to people who were criticizing him for hanging around gentiles. Basically:

"I saw the spirit fall on them like I remember it falling on us, so who was I to withhold baptism from them?"

The point you seem to keep missing is they (Cornelius etc) were already baptized and Peter realised that when he finally remembered what the Lord had said to him regarding baptism.

Ephesians 4:5
one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

The point you seem to keep missing is they (Cornelius etc) were already baptized and Peter realised that when he finally remembered what the Lord had said to him regarding baptism.

Ephesians 4:5
one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

They weren;t already baptized otherwise Peter would not have baptized them. Spirit baptism and water baptism are distinct. Water baptism is into forgiveness of sins, and spirit baptism is for power to be Christ's witnesses. One baptism into Christ, which is water.

 

[sawdust]

They weren;t already baptized otherwise Peter would not have baptized them. Spirit baptism and water baptism are distinct. Water baptism is into forgiveness of sins, and spirit baptism is for power to be Christ's witnesses. One baptism into Christ, which is water.

Acts 11:15
And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning.

Are you suggesting Peter and company were not baptized with the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost as Christ said would happen?

 

[Inquisitor]

I don't care where you get your information from, AI has a lot of benefits BUT IF IT DOES NOT LINE UP WITH HIS WORD, IT'S A LIE.

Example, I asked "what do I have to do to be reborn"

A COMPUTER MADE BY MEN told me this.

To be "reborn," which means a deep spiritual or personal transformation, different beliefs offer different paths, but commonly involve turning from past ways (repentance), believing in a higher power (like Jesus in Christianity), seeking inner change through practices like meditation or self-reflection, and committing to a new way of living. For Christians, it's about receiving Jesus as Savior; in Eastern traditions, it's about breaking karma's cycle through spiritual perfection.

Does that make you think of what JESUS said in John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

JESUS said we need to be born of WATER AND OF SPIRIT.

So always check HIS word, of course it's best to let the Holy Ghost lead you if you have it.

If you don't you could be anything, muslim, buddha anything, that is why there in ONLY ONE GOD and ONE truth and so many different denominations.

For instance WHY WOULD YOU SAY,

"As for Acts which is not a letter from an apostle and has no authority"

Personal opinion?

Did you find that in HIS word?

You are right, it's not hard to read so you should be able to explain yourself easily, using HIS word of course.

I asked the same question of AI.

Scripture only. How can someone be saved by Jesus?

Scripture only

God’s provision in Christ

• “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.” — John 3:16
• “God shows His love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” — Romans 5:8
• “Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures… He was buried… He was raised on the third day.” — 1 Corinthians 15:3–4

The means: faith

• “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.” — Acts 16:31
• “Whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life.” — John 5:24
• “Everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins through His name.” — Acts 10:43

By grace, not works

• “By grace you have been saved through faith… not a result of works.” — Ephesians 2:8–9
• “To the one who does not work but believes… his faith is counted as righteousness.” — Romans 4:5
• “He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness.” — Titus 3:5

Confession and heart-faith

• “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.” — Romans 10:9–10
• “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” — Romans 10:13

Union with Christ

• “I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.” — Galatians 2:20
• “If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.” — 2 Corinthians 5:17

The Spirit’s work

• “Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” — John 3:5
• “No one can say ‘Jesus is Lord’ except in the Holy Spirit.” — 1 Corinthians 12:3

The fruit that follows

• “We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works.” — Ephesians 2:10
• “The fruit of the Spirit is love…” — Galatians 5:22–23
• “Whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.” — 1 John 4:7

Summary

• “There is salvation in no one else.” — Acts 4:12
• “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life.” — John 3:36

 

[Inquisitor]

I don't care where you get your information from, AI has a lot of benefits BUT IF IT DOES NOT LINE UP WITH HIS WORD, IT'S A LIE.

Example, I asked "what do I have to do to be reborn"

A COMPUTER MADE BY MEN told me this.

To be "reborn," which means a deep spiritual or personal transformation, different beliefs offer different paths, but commonly involve turning from past ways (repentance), believing in a higher power (like Jesus in Christianity), seeking inner change through practices like meditation or self-reflection, and committing to a new way of living. For Christians, it's about receiving Jesus as Savior; in Eastern traditions, it's about breaking karma's cycle through spiritual perfection.

Does that make you think of what JESUS said in John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

JESUS said we need to be born of WATER AND OF SPIRIT.

So always check HIS word, of course it's best to let the Holy Ghost lead you if you have it.

If you don't you could be anything, muslim, buddha anything, that is why there in ONLY ONE GOD and ONE truth and so many different denominations.

For instance WHY WOULD YOU SAY,

"As for Acts which is not a letter from an apostle and has no authority"

Personal opinion?

Did you find that in HIS word?

You are right, it's not hard to read so you should be able to explain yourself easily, using HIS word of course.

On the subject of water baptism.

Here is the question I asked AI.

Is water baptism a one-off, external symbol, of the inner baptism of the Holy Spirit. Was the new covenant an introduction into the ultimate fulfillment, of circumcision, and water baptism. Was the early church unclear on the depth of Christ's new covenant?

Excellent and deep set of questions — and yes, Scripture itself traces a powerful link between circumcision, baptism, and the new covenant — each pointing progressively toward the inner work of the Spirit rather than external ritual. Let’s unpack each part using Scripture only, step by step.
1. Is water baptism a one-off, external symbol, of the inner baptism of the Holy Spirit?
Yes — Scripture reveals that water baptism is an outward confession of an inner reality that only the Spirit of God accomplishes.

• John the Baptist distinguished them clearly:
  
  “I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who comes after me… will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.”
  — Matthew 3:11​

John’s baptism was external — repentance and preparation. Christ’s baptism is internal — transformation and new birth.

• Paul makes the distinction:
  
  “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body — whether Jews or Greeks... and were all made to drink of one Spirit.”
  — 1 Corinthians 12:13​

That’s Spirit baptism, not water.

• Peter too draws the parallel:
  
  “Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you — not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience — through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”
  — 1 Peter 3:21​

Peter explicitly says it’s not physical cleansing, but a spiritual appeal of faith to God.
So yes — the water act is symbolic and one-time; the Spirit’s work is inward and lifelong.
2. Was the new covenant an introduction into the ultimate fulfillment of circumcision and water baptism?
Yes — the new covenant brings to fulfillment the spiritual reality that the old signs (circumcision, and later baptism) only pointed toward.

• Circumcision was the old covenant’s external sign (Genesis 17:10–11).
  But Paul explains that true circumcision is of the heart:
  
  “He is not a Jew who is one outwardly… but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter.”
  — Romans 2:28–29​
• Christ fulfills it perfectly:
  
  “In Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with Him in baptism...”
  — Colossians 2:11–12​

Paul directly ties spiritual circumcision to baptism, both being fulfilled inwardly in Christ. The old covenant’s external symbols are replaced by the Spirit’s internal work of regeneration and union with Christ.
So yes — the new covenant is the ultimate fulfillment of what both circumcision and baptism represented:
→ a cutting away of the old nature and entry into new life in the Spirit.
3. Was the early church unclear on the depth of Christ’s new covenant?
Yes — initially. The book of Acts reveals a gradual unfolding of understanding.

• Early believers often held onto old covenant shadows:
  • Jewish believers still practiced temple worship (Acts 2:46; 3:1).
  • Peter initially hesitated to eat with Gentiles (Acts 10).
  • Some insisted Gentiles must be circumcised (Acts 15:1–5).
• The Jerusalem Council (Acts 15) marked the Spirit’s clarification that Gentiles were not under the law, nor required circumcision — showing how the church was being taught progressively by the Spirit into the fullness of grace.

Even Paul’s letters correct misunderstandings:

“Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?”
— Galatians 3:3​

This shows how the early believers were growing in understanding that Christ’s covenant is entirely spiritual — internal, not external.

Conclusion
Water baptism is a one-time public declaration of what Spirit baptism truly accomplishes — the death of the old man and resurrection into new life.
The new covenant fulfills both circumcision and baptism, uniting them in one spiritual reality — the heart transformed by the Holy Spirit.
And yes — the early church grew gradually into understanding the full spiritual depth of Christ’s covenant, as the law of love and the indwelling Spirit replaced all external forms.

 

[Inquisitor]

Maybe you misunderstand what was written. You need to show evidence, besides you say so, that your understanding is authoritative

John 3:15
So that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:18
The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

John 3:36
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who believes has eternal life.

John 11:25
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; the one who believes in Me will live, even if he dies,

John 11:26
And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?

John 12:46
I have come as Light into the world, so that no one who believes in Me will remain in darkness.

John 14:12
Truly, truly I say to you, the one who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I am going to the Father.

1 Corinthians 1:21
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

1 Corinthians 2:2
For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Acts 11:15
And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning.

Are you suggesting Peter and company were not baptized with the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost as Christ said would happen?

Peter and the 120 were, but that's all that the text indicates

 

[sawdust]

Peter and the 120 were, but that's all that the text indicates

Peter says Cornelius had the Spirit fall on them the same way it fell on Peter and company. If you think that one is the baptism of the Spirit and the other is not, imo, is irrational. Therefore I see no value to further discussion.

Acts 11:15
And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning.

grace and peace

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Peter says Cornelius had the Spirit fall on them the same way it fell on Peter and company. If you think that one is the baptism of the Spirit and the other is not, imo, is irrational. Therefore I see no value to further discussion.

Acts 11:15
And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning.

grace and peace

OK bye. It's pointless to have a discussion with you, and it's not edifying

 

[sawdust]

OK bye. It's pointless to have a discussion with you, and it's not edifying

Sometimes people have to have their ivory towers torn down before they can be built up.

 

[homwardbound]

So your saying you was baptized in JESUS name?

I think your saying some churches do it to become members?

If so I do agree, makes no since since that is not in HIS word.

The purpose of baptism is very clear in HIS word, to remove our sins.

You are right we are no longer under the law, when JESUS died it died with him.

If you could just say what you want instead of explaing it I would be able to understand better.

Are you saying I'm starting an argument??????

Then you refer to letters to churchs?????

I am just shaing HIS word on how to be reborn with the ONLY foundation to do so.

You do know, the foudation of being reborn didn't start until JESUS accended right? Which is Acts 1, which is still in effect today right?

Sorry, GOD BLESS YOU.

There are many views, and many do see the truth Jesus the Son died for them where new life for them begins in his risen Life for them of love and mercy to all. The same love and mercy Jesus did, all that way to that cross willingly. Whoever does truth unwillingly is under the crurse of the Law. God knows each person, whether or not they are willing or out for self and those they chose to love. When truth is God loves us all, period. If does not, then Son would not have ever gone to that cross once for us all, for each to choose to believe God or not, or would he have? God is fair, is not prejudice against his creation, or is God, you decide?
We are God's creation in the lineage of Adam and Eve, are we all not?
Belief Son is risen in your place for you to be saved, does not mean God will not save them. God knowing the truth of one's anyone's motive, God views one's anyone's motive and sees righteously whether or not one that claims to belief is real or not

Quote I think you're saying some churches do it to become members? End Quote

Go to a Church gathering anyone and ask to Join, you want to be a member, get water Baptized and you in. Go to another one and the same. You will see you have to be water Baptized again
Even though another Church water Baptized you
And it is not John the Baptist, nor any man after him that saves anyone
God Father an dSoin a sWon for us, Spirit Baptizes us
Thank you

 

[homwardbound]

The command to be water baptized in the name of Jesus had nothing to do with the OT law. The command was instituted at Pentecost as prophesied by Jesus after His resurrection. (Luke 24:47, Acts 2:38)

Not what I see. I see God Father in Spirit and Truth did the Spirit Baptism to 3,000 believers that day. Confo(i)rmation to the disciples was them seeking to them in their own language Hebrew. They heard them God speak through them. Later on Peter heard the Gentile house do the same and went to the other disciples and told them without Laws or rituals they got the Spirit of God working. through them too I think this was Acts 10-11. God frees, God saves and I had nothing to do with this mercy given us all through risen Son
It's free to respond to God in, not a have to as people are taught to do, are under Law, under the curse and learning not to be as time goes forward., God continues in love and mercy to us all anyways. Amazing, so I respond in thanksgiving and praise

 

[homwardbound]

The command to be water baptized in the name of Jesus had nothing to do with the OT law. The command was instituted at Pentecost as prophesied by Jesus after His resurrection. (Luke 24:47, Acts 2:38)

The Levite Priest, got water Baptized sprinkled before entering the Temple year after year, each with a rope tied to them before entering the Temple, that is now open thanks to Son's done work for everyone on that cross over two thousand years ago now
That veil ripped into two, when Jesus gave up the Ghost John 19:30. Three days later risen and will never die again, It is done for us that believe God we see new Spiritually, thankfully, not pridefully