Apologetics: witnessing to atheists

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Before even addressing the grammar, there is a fundamental problem of instability that your position cannot escape. No rational person would test-fly an airplane built from contradicting schematics, and no one would purchase a house governed by multiple conflicting contracts, each carrying serious consequences. Yet this is precisely what is being defended here. A translation that reverses itself and then insists the later reading must be upheld creates a situation where, if you debated your pre-2011 self without naming the version, you would be arguing against yourself over the same verse. That is not refinement of the text, but confusion, and it forces the reader into arbitration rather than submission to a settled authority.

Turning to the text itself, the proposed explanation still does not arise from the grammar of the passage, either in Greek or in English. In Mark 1:40, both the KJV and the NIV translate the sentence as a respectful conditional appeal, not as a challenge to Christ’s compassion or willingness. The English construction “If thou wilt, thou canst make me clean” reflects a long-established idiom of submission. The conditional clause recognizes authority; it does not probe character. Grammatically, the condition governs will, not disposition. Nothing in the English syntax signals accusation, testing, or provocation.

This is reinforced by normal English usage. Conditional language does not imply doubt by default. In both Early Modern English and contemporary English, “if” often functions as a deferential framing device. Expressions such as “If you will allow” or “If you please” do not question goodwill; they acknowledge authority. The KJV accurately preserves this idiomatic sense, and the NIV’s English does as well. Neither translation linguistically suggests that the leper was questioning Jesus’ compassion.

The narrative structure also matters. When Jesus is misunderstood, challenged, or morally provoked elsewhere, the text consistently records a correction, rebuke, or teaching moment. Here, no such response appears. The request is immediately granted. From a narrative standpoint, that response aligns naturally with compassion rather than indignation. An angry response without stated cause or correction would be out of place in the flow of the account.

The Greek confirms this reading. The verb δύνασαι is indicative and declarative, affirming ability. The leper is not questioning whether Jesus can act, nor whether He is compassionate, but affirming Christ’s power while submitting to His will. The sentence structure encodes humility and trust, not tension. Any reading that introduces indignation must therefore import psychological motives that the grammar itself does not convey.

There is also an important historical consideration. The majority of Greek manuscripts did not transmit the indignant reading, and that is not accidental. The manuscript tradition reflects sustained judgment by generations of scribes who recognized which readings fit the grammar, context, and portrayal of Christ, and which did not. Readings that disrupt narrative coherence or create Christological difficulty tend not to spread widely. The compassion reading fits the passage naturally, while the indignant reading introduces difficulty that must be explained away.

For clarity, passages where Jesus displays righteous indignation elsewhere in the Gospels, such as the cleansing of the temple, explicitly state the cause for His anger. Mark 1 does not. Introducing indignation here portrays Jesus as angry without cause, which conflicts with His own warning in Matthew 5:22. That is not a minor historical detail. It directly affects how Christ’s character is presented.

At this point, the indignant reading has still not been adequately defended from the text itself. It is unsupported by the immediate context, by the English grammar of Mark 1:40, and by the Greek grammar underlying the passage. What has been offered in its defense is a speculative narrative imposed on the text rather than one derived from it. Ultimately, insisting on indignation here violates the flow of the passage, the teaching of Scripture, and the principle of a stable text, replacing submission to God’s word with a pick-and-choose, shape-shifting Bible mindset.

If this is the approach you are going to take, then there really is no point in moving on to other verses. At this stage, you already made a decision regardless of what the English says or what the Greek actually shows. In other words, when the text itself no longer controls the your understanding of God's Word or your conclusion, continuing this discussion on other verses will not really accomplish anything.

However, if you change your mind in your approach, my writeup is available for you to read. All I can do is encourage you to keep an open mind and look at the larger pattern of changes found in Modern Bibles, which includes the NIV as well.

....

My "approach" is English rather than Greek or Hebrew, so may I point out that my saying "Granted, indignation is not explicitly stated
in the verse" indicates that I am NOT "insisting on indignation", and your appeal to the original languages does not refute indignation mixed with compassion being a possibility, but I also understand God to be insulted by tulipists accusing Him of hating nonelect humanity, so I confess having that issue in mind while reading Mark 1:40.

Again I see you getting hung up about a minor nuance rather than a significant changed doctrine, so you ignored my moving on
to ask whether you agree that the verses are in a historical rather than a doctrinal passage, and if there is an implicit lesson, doctrine or teaching it would be: Of COURSE Jesus is willing to heal sinners (cf. Matt. 13:14-15, 22:37-40)!

I also asked whether you agree that divine indignation/wrath does not contradict divine love?

Then I said that I am ready to consider another one of the "77 changes" whenever you have time to share it
(and I will try to watch Polycarp).

Hasta manana.
 
Yes, my parents were loving, so I understood love to mean wanting to cooperate with their will, not obeying because of fear.
Their commitment to the Lord and each other lasted for 70 years until death.
And although marital love included romance, that is not what love for God means.

Never got spanked I guess - never rebuked and warned of more stern consequences - never rebellious at all - good boy...
 
When a detective investigates a cold case, the original crime scene and written evidence may be decades old, but the detective may have many detailed reports, witness statements, and photographs from people who saw the scene firsthand. Differences in testimony don’t change the overall truth: a crime occurred.

Similarly, variations in Bible manuscripts don’t change the way to salvation, the doctrine of Christ, or the validity of Christianity. Just as a detective can reconstruct the truth of the crime, sincere seekers can see the truth of God’s Word.

If a lawyer is handling a long-standing case, they may be looking at contracts, letters, or reports that were written decades ago. Those documents may have minor differences—maybe a word is slightly changed, a date is off, or a signature is smudged—but the lawyer doesn’t throw out the case because of one small inconsistency. Instead, they examine all the evidence together, trace it back to its origin, check for patterns, corroboration, and authenticity, and then reconstruct the truth of what actually happened.

The same principle applies to the Bible. Even if there are tiny variations in manuscripts or translations, a careful examination of the body of evidence allows a lawyer, or a genuine seeker, to see the truth of what really occurred.

And the truth did and does not change.

From my research none of those “alleged scribal errors” change anything about Christianity or the word of God to completely discredit it. Most are extremely minor and do not change anything about Christianity. I have looked into Bible reliability. Some 5000 hand-copied documents exist of all or part of the Bible, and they agree in 98% of the text. No other ancient writing has this amount of underlying support with such amazing agreement as to the text. A. T. Robertson estimated that NT textual concerns have to do with only a “thousandth part of the entire text,” placing the accuracy of the NT text at 99.9 percent-the best known for any book from the ancient world. Of the less than 1 percent of the text that is in question, no doctrinal teaching or command is jeopardized.

So, this idea that “there are at least so and so many different translations of such verses, so how can we be sure we have the correct one?” doesn’t hold water.

Does the difference in them affect any core doctrine in the sense that it affects the validity of Christianity and how to have eternal life/salvation in Christ? No. Not a single one.
 
Never got spanked I guess - never rebuked and warned of more stern consequences - never rebellious at all - good boy...

Well, I was rarely spanked, and never because of emotional anger, but only after my dad would explain why he thought my behavior warranted a spanking. I cannot remember the reasons, but I think it was because of disobedience rather than insolence.

And you?
 
Ok, then how do you know what is right? And how do you know you’re not wrong? Did God leave us a book that does not tell us how to have eternal life, or we are just having to come up with a way all on our own?

Did God dictate the scriptures or did men write the scriptures as they were inspired by their relationship with God. If God dictated, why does Paul occasionally claim that he is giving HIS word, not God's.

As for me, I know I have been wrong in my understanding of the Bible at some time because my understanding has changed over the years enough that at least one time I had to be wrong. But I come to my understanding by studying and meditating on the scriptures, just as commanded. I do not claim that consensus of humans necessarily is correct, the recorded attitude of the Pharisees and Sadducees is sufficient to disprove that.
 
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Are you sure you should have entitled this as "Modern Versions"? I'm looking at several modern versions that do not agree with the NIV for obvious underlying reasons.

It is common knowledge that the NIV is a Modern Version.
Knowing this fact is really basic.
To deny this would be as bad as denying gravity or oxygen.
This is something you can confirm with a standard Google internet search or Ais (like ChatGPT or Perplexity).



.....
 
You're obviously free to see logic any way you so desire and to classify anything any way you want to classify it.

My point was simple - when I first glanced at your graphic, its headings say Modern Versions and KJV - then looking at the fine print it looks like NIV broke ranks to go with Codex D, so it's off on it's own where it did so - thus in this instance it looks like it's actually NIV vs. KJV here, and not Modern Versions vs. KJV since the other modern versions' chosen manuscripts apparently agree with the TR in this instance.

IOW, in this instance your graphic uses an exception to criticize "Modern Versions" when most "Modern Versions" apparently agree with the KJV.

If you have ever looked carefully at the differences between Modern Bibles and the KJV, you will notice that there are many changes that are worse, not better, when viewed collectively rather than in isolation. You are isolating the NIV as if it is not a Modern Version or not in the same category as the others, when in fact it is. The NIV uses the same underlying Greek text tradition, namely the Nestle-Aland Critical Text, which traces back to Westcott and Hort.

The KJV, by contrast, primarily follows Beza’s 1598 Greek text, with only about twenty-five translatable differences. Once you understand the basic issue in the KJV versus Modern Bibles debate, it becomes clear that the disagreement is not merely about translation style but about different underlying Greek texts altogether.

The NIV belongs in the same category as the NASB, ESV, CSB, BSB, NET, and similar versions because they all rely on the same Critical Text tradition. For this reason, the NIV cannot be treated as an exception or evaluated in isolation from the broader Modern Bible movement.

If you want to see this laid out in detail, you can visit www.affectionsabove.com, where I offer free PDFs documenting a substantial list of doctrinal changes found in Modern Bibles when compared to the KJV.



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My "approach" is English rather than Greek or Hebrew, so may I point out that my saying "Granted, indignation is not explicitly stated
in the verse" indicates that I am NOT "insisting on indignation", and your appeal to the original languages does not refute indignation mixed with compassion being a possibility, but I also understand God to be insulted by tulipists accusing Him of hating nonelect humanity, so I confess having that issue in mind while reading Mark 1:40.

Again I see you getting hung up about a minor nuance rather than a significant changed doctrine, so you ignored my moving on
to ask whether you agree that the verses are in a historical rather than a doctrinal passage, and if there is an implicit lesson, doctrine or teaching it would be: Of COURSE Jesus is willing to heal sinners (cf. Matt. 13:14-15, 22:37-40)!

I also asked whether you agree that divine indignation/wrath does not contradict divine love?

Then I said that I am ready to consider another one of the "77 changes" whenever you have time to share it
(and I will try to watch Polycarp).

Hasta manana.

This is not a minor nuance at all, nor is it merely a question of tone or emotional shading. The NIV 2011 reading in Mark 1:41 introduces a serious doctrinal problem. If Jesus is said to be angry in that moment without any stated cause, then that anger stands in direct tension with Matthew 5:22 (KJV), which says, “whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.”

If Jesus were truly angry without a cause, He would be placed in danger of judgment, which would necessarily imply sin. Yet Scripture is clear that Jesus is without sin (Hebrews 4:15; 1 Peter 2:22; 1 John 3:5; 2 Corinthians 5:21). That is why this reading cannot be dismissed as a harmless emotional nuance.



....



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My "approach" is English rather than Greek or Hebrew, so may I point out that my saying "Granted, indignation is not explicitly stated
in the verse" indicates that I am NOT "insisting on indignation", and your appeal to the original languages does not refute indignation mixed with compassion being a possibility, but I also understand God to be insulted by tulipists accusing Him of hating nonelect humanity, so I confess having that issue in mind while reading Mark 1:40.

Again I see you getting hung up about a minor nuance rather than a significant changed doctrine, so you ignored my moving on
to ask whether you agree that the verses are in a historical rather than a doctrinal passage, and if there is an implicit lesson, doctrine or teaching it would be: Of COURSE Jesus is willing to heal sinners (cf. Matt. 13:14-15, 22:37-40)!

I also asked whether you agree that divine indignation/wrath does not contradict divine love?

Then I said that I am ready to consider another one of the "77 changes" whenever you have time to share it
(and I will try to watch Polycarp).

Hasta manana.

Mark 1:41 is not the only verse in the NIV which falsely teaches that Jesus sinned.

Here are three more in the NIV:

Modern_Bibles_01_2_35.png

Modern_Bibles_02_35 7777.png

Modern_Bibles_03_35 888888.png



,,,,
 
Attacks on the Word of God should be one link the chain of evidence to the atheist. These attacks confirm Scripture. Modern Bibles repeatedly make changes for the worse and not for the better. This is proof or evidence one can verify by looking at the changes on my website www.affectionsabove.com. In the garden, there are two tactics that the serpent tries to trick man with. One tactic by the devil is to get a person to doubt or question God's word (Which today is Scripture). If one has multiple conflicting readings and or those readings are heretical, then it shows there is an attack. Things that have value are attacked. The KJV itself, and those who hold to it as God's perfect word are verbally attacked. Believers in the KJV have been falsely slandered. They are said to be in a cult, and yet they have no cult leader and if they were to time travel back to the 1800s, they would find that the vast majority of believers held to the view that the KJV was God's perfect words in English-speaking countries. There are many quotes by believers confirming this in the 1800s.


....
 
Mark 1:41 is not the only verse in the NIV which falsely teaches that Jesus sinned.

Here are three more in the NIV:

View attachment 283968

View attachment 283969

View attachment 283970



,,,,

Regarding Mark 1:40-41, I agree that Scripture clearly teaches Jesus is sinless, so any interpretation of less clear passages must not contradict that doctrine, and viewing Jesus as having righteous indignation because of the implied cause of being insulted by the leper questioning his willingness to have compassion for people does NOT contradict that doctrine, even though it is not explicitly stated, which is why this reading can be considered as a possible logical nuance.

Regarding the three couplets you shared, here are my comments about each:

John 7:8. My 1978 NIV has "yet", which I agree is the better translation, since Jesus did go to the feast after all.

Titus 3:10. The 1978 NIV has "divisive person", and what can be more divisive than an heretical person? However, I like the KJV "an heretic", because I view the Gospel kerygma/GRFS (Accept Jesus as Messiah and Lord) as the Christian creed or crucial truth that should be used as the test for orthodoxy or heresy. Rejection seems to speak of excommunication, which I find mentioned also in:

TOJ #43: Do not fellowship with enemies. [Matt. 7:6] Do not dance with demons. All fields are not ripe for harvest. In contrast with the situation in Matthew 9:37, some people are demonic and dangerous (Matt. 10:16-17). Here such people are called dogs and pigs, and the gospel or TOJ are pearls of wisdom. Jesus said whenever saints encounter demonic people to “shake the dust off your feet” and leave. {Matt. 10:14&23}

TOP #73: May God give believers a spirit of unity. [Rom. 15:5b-7&9, 16:17] The opposite spirit of divisiveness is demonic and condemned in Rom. 16:18 and Tit. 3:9-11. Jesus prayed for oneness in John 17:20-23, by which they will glorify or bring praise to God.

TOP #85: A community of believers should not associate with immoral people who claim to be Christians. [1Cor. 5:1-13, Tit. 3:9-11] Sins cited include sexual immorality, greed, idolatry, slander, drunkenness and swindling (cf. TOP #13) in the first passage and arguing, quarreling and divisiveness in the second. Such excommunication is an appropriate of approved form of judging.

Thus, if in Titus 3:10 a divisive person is understood to be an heretic, there is no doctrinal problem, but if the Greek supports the latter, I am happy with that translation and agree it should be preferred, because "division" per Paul does not always seem caused by heresy (1Cor. 1:10, 11:18, 12:25). However, I do not think using "divisive person" promotes the view that Jesus sinned, because both divisiveness and heresy are sinful.

Matthew 5:22. My NIV has "without cause" in the footnote for this verse, which I agree makes more sense, and omitting it might imply that there is no such thing as righteous anger, which is a "changed doctrine". Not sure why the NIV did not have the omission of "without cause" as the footnote per some manuscripts.

So far I agree that the KJV translations of the four couplets are better. I guess as a dialectical theologian my question would be "are there any passages/couplets where the NIV is better?

Next?
 
Well, I was rarely spanked, and never because of emotional anger, but only after my dad would explain why he thought my behavior warranted a spanking. I cannot remember the reasons, but I think it was because of disobedience rather than insolence.

And you?

So you did know of proper fear which is more akin to proper orientation to proper authority.

Compared to you it seems somewhat of a bad boy but had limits.
 
Thus, if in Titus 3:10 a divisive person is understood to be an heretic, there is no doctrinal problem, but if the Greek supports the latter, I am happy with that translation and agree it should be preferred, because "division" per Paul does not always seem caused by heresy (1Cor. 1:10, 11:18, 12:25). However, I do not think using "divisive person" promotes the view that Jesus sinned, because both divisiveness and heresy are sinful.

Greek is αἱρετικός - hairetikos - which means divisive, so transliterate or translate & define - probably better to translate so we know what it means and don't import all the burning on a stake imagery! Many heretics-divisives on these forums and in christendom in general.
 
So you did know of proper fear which is more akin to proper orientation to proper authority.

Compared to you it seems somewhat of a bad boy but had limits.

Yes, and to proper respect for parents and reverence for God.
I share my "God's plan A for parenting" (marriage) with folks in order to encourage them to realize it is possible and a goal to strive for,
although no parent (spouse) or child is perfect.
 
Greek is αἱρετικός - hairetikos - which means divisive, so transliterate or translate & define - probably better to translate so we know what it means and don't import all the burning on a stake imagery! Many heretics-divisives on these forums and in christendom in general.

Well, perhaps best to translate literally and explain the meaning in a footnote.
There are some divisives (good coin) and some heretics (mainly tulipists) on CC.
All heretics are divisives, but perhaps not all divisives are heretics, although their divisive spirit is sinful.
And we should not view excommunication for just reasons as the moral equivalent of heretical divisiveness.
 
If you have ever looked carefully at the differences between Modern Bibles and the KJV, you will notice that there are many changes that are worse, not better, when viewed collectively rather than in isolation. You are isolating the NIV as if it is not a Modern Version or not in the same category as the others, when in fact it is. The NIV uses the same underlying Greek text tradition, namely the Nestle-Aland Critical Text, which traces back to Westcott and Hort.

The KJV, by contrast, primarily follows Beza’s 1598 Greek text, with only about twenty-five translatable differences. Once you understand the basic issue in the KJV versus Modern Bibles debate, it becomes clear that the disagreement is not merely about translation style but about different underlying Greek texts altogether.

The NIV belongs in the same category as the NASB, ESV, CSB, BSB, NET, and similar versions because they all rely on the same Critical Text tradition. For this reason, the NIV cannot be treated as an exception or evaluated in isolation from the broader Modern Bible movement.

If you want to see this laid out in detail, you can visit www.affectionsabove.com, where I offer free PDFs documenting a substantial list of doctrinal changes found in Modern Bibles when compared to the KJV.



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Thanks for the offer. I have looked at the differences somewhat extensively. I'm also trained in Greek so am not tied to any English translation and only use them for reference and posting. In seminary I determined textual criticism was not for me and I could refer to those who focus on it when needed. I watch for textual variants when I'm focusing on translational issues.

Many years ago I looked into the KJV-only issue and determined it was for me a waste of time. I'm sure you know of the many arguments against it. A few years back, I believe you and I had a fairly aggressive discussion on the matter on another forum. Shortly thereafter, as I recall, the topic was banned on that site.

IMO you in the case at hand have lumped an exception among your so-labeled "Modern Versions" and put it on display. As I said, you're of course free to do so, but in this case IMO it lessens your credibility and adds to your man-with-a-mission identity.

Again, IMO, to infer that the NIV in this case affects the credibility of other translations that disagree with it and agree with the KJV makes no sense. Since you mentioned logic in a previous post, I could also get into how what you've done in this case is presented a logically fallacious argument.
 
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Well, perhaps best to translate literally and explain the meaning in a footnote.
There are some divisives (good coin) and some heretics (mainly tulipists) on CC.
All heretics are divisives, but perhaps not all divisives are heretics, although their divisive spirit is sinful.
And we should not view excommunication for just reasons as the moral equivalent of heretical divisiveness.

If concerning the Gospel I think Paul would make a distinction but I don't think this is the context of Titus3:10 which it looks like is the only place the word is used. One would think with all the use of it in history and still today when "Christians" use it against one another so aggressively, that it would be a very common word in our Text. One would also think we would all be looking in the mirror when accusing others of being divisive/heretics.

Maybe we should look at the previous verse and use some context to determine what heretics were doing in Paul's view.

Maybe we should just look at one of BDAG's definitions of the word Paul uses to command what to do with heretics and on the one hand wonder why all the burnings and on the other hand have a smile:
b. decline, refuse, avoid, reject (CMRDM I, 164, 16f a wrestler is declared the victor when his opponents decline to engage him upon seeing his unclothed physique; Diod. S. 13, 80, 2 abs.)
 
When a detective investigates a cold case, the original crime scene and written evidence may be decades old, but the detective may have many detailed reports, witness statements, and photographs from people who saw the scene firsthand. Differences in testimony don’t change the overall truth: a crime occurred.

Similarly, variations in Bible manuscripts don’t change the way to salvation, the doctrine of Christ, or the validity of Christianity. Just as a detective can reconstruct the truth of the crime, sincere seekers can see the truth of God’s Word.

If a lawyer is handling a long-standing case, they may be looking at contracts, letters, or reports that were written decades ago. Those documents may have minor differences—maybe a word is slightly changed, a date is off, or a signature is smudged—but the lawyer doesn’t throw out the case because of one small inconsistency. Instead, they examine all the evidence together, trace it back to its origin, check for patterns, corroboration, and authenticity, and then reconstruct the truth of what actually happened.

The same principle applies to the Bible. Even if there are tiny variations in manuscripts or translations, a careful examination of the body of evidence allows a lawyer, or a genuine seeker, to see the truth of what really occurred.

And the truth did and does not change.

From my research none of those “alleged scribal errors” change anything about Christianity or the word of God to completely discredit it. Most are extremely minor and do not change anything about Christianity. I have looked into Bible reliability. Some 5000 hand-copied documents exist of all or part of the Bible, and they agree in 98% of the text. No other ancient writing has this amount of underlying support with such amazing agreement as to the text. A. T. Robertson estimated that NT textual concerns have to do with only a “thousandth part of the entire text,” placing the accuracy of the NT text at 99.9 percent-the best known for any book from the ancient world. Of the less than 1 percent of the text that is in question, no doctrinal teaching or command is jeopardized.

So, this idea that “there are at least so and so many different translations of such verses, so how can we be sure we have the correct one?” doesn’t hold water.

Does the difference in them affect any core doctrine in the sense that it affects the validity of Christianity and how to have eternal life/salvation in Christ? No. Not a single one



I am so glad that you are familiar with the six different potential translations and that you do not consider any of them to change a fundamental doctrine. You are much more tolerant than most people. For every other person I know, including biblical scholars of all orientations as well as pastors, they are troublesome, especially the one potential translation that no bible wants to present, you know, the one that implies that Satan will be forgiven.