Apologetics: witnessing to atheists

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It's your lack of acceptance of the Bible's inerrancy that led to your false soteriology, including your false alternate gospel.

Apparently, you do not realize that the dictation theory has a caveat: It refers to the original manuscripts (which we do not have), correctly interpreted.

The key to correct interpretation is viewing the Bible as concerned with communicating God’s will to humanity regarding His requirement for salvation (soteriology): THAT is the Gospel and what is inerrant!

My understanding of the Gospel or Christian creed is this:

The normative way of stating the Gospel kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in Acts 16:31, 2Cor. 4:5 & Col. 2:6). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:
  1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or Creator God (Deut. 6:4, John 3:16, 2Thes. 1:6), who loves sinful humanity (Rom. 5:6-8, John 3:16) and who is both able (2Tim. 1:12) and willing (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
  2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (Rom. 3:23, 2Tim. 3:2-4, Col. 3:5), miserable (Gal. 5:19-21), and hopeless (Eph. 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (Matt. 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (John 3:18, Rom. 2:5-11).
  3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31, Phil. 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (Rom. 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1Cor. 15:14-28).
  4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s grace or justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (Luke 2:11, John 14:6, Acts 16:31), at which moment God’s loving Holy Spirit of Christ indwells/baptizes the believer into the church (Rev. 3:20, Rom. 5:5, 1Cor. 12:13).
  5. Loving Christ Jesus as Lord (Luke 2:11), God the Son (Matt. 16:16) or God in the human dimension (Col. 2:9) means reflecting divine love as empowered by the Holy Spirit, thereby obeying His command to love one another (Matt. 7:21, 22:37-40, John 13:35, Rom. 13:9)—forever (Matt. 10:22, Psa. 113:2), which will eventually achieve spiritual maturity on earth and heaven after Christ returns at God’s resurrection (John 14:6, 17&26, Rom. 8:6-17, Gal. 6:7-9, Eph. 1:13-14, Phil. 3:12-16, Heb. 10:36, 12:1, Jam. 1:2-4).
Which point(s) do you or anyone view as false?
 
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Apparently, you do not realize that the dictation theory has a caveat: It refers to the original manuscripts (which we do not have), correctly interpreted.

The key to correct interpretation is viewing the Bible as concerned with communicating God’s will to humanity regarding His requirement for salvation (soteriology): THAT is the Gospel and what is inerrant!

My understanding of the Gospel or Christian creed is this:

The normative way of stating the Gospel kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in Acts 16:31, 2Cor. 4:5 & Col. 2:6). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:
  1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or Creator God (Deut. 6:4, John 3:16, 2Thes. 1:6), who loves sinful humanity (Rom. 5:6-8, John 3:16) and who is both able (2Tim. 1:12) and willing (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
  2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (Rom. 3:23, 2Tim. 3:2-4, Col. 3:5), miserable (Gal. 5:19-21), and hopeless (Eph. 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (Matt. 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (John 3:18, Rom. 2:5-11).
  3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31, Phil. 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (Rom. 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1Cor. 15:14-28).
  4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s grace or justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (Luke 2:11, John 14:6, Acts 16:31), at which moment God’s loving Holy Spirit of Christ indwells/baptizes the believer into the church (Rev. 3:20, Rom. 5:5, 1Cor. 12:13).
  5. Loving Christ Jesus as Lord (Luke 2:11), God the Son (Matt. 16:16) or God in the human dimension (Col. 2:9) means reflecting divine love as empowered by the Holy Spirit, thereby obeying His command to love one another (Matt. 7:21, 22:37-40, John 13:35, Rom. 13:9)—forever (Matt. 10:22, Psa. 113:2), which will eventually achieve spiritual maturity on earth and heaven after Christ returns at God’s resurrection (John 14:6, 17&26, Rom. 8:6-17, Gal. 6:7-9, Eph. 1:13-14, Phil. 3:12-16, Heb. 10:36, 12:1, Jam. 1:2-4).
Which point(s) do you or anyone view as false?
Yours
 
So then it’s entirely reasonable that humans can know whether someone is speaking the word of God, right?

Possible, yes, but given humanities track record I would not count on it. Even a blind squirrel is capable of finding a nut.

There are six possible translations of Colossians 2:20 based on the Greek with six different ultimate meanings. How certain are you that you know the proper one as opposed to the one that makes you feel the most comfortable?
 
Good points.
Those who believe in Sola Scriptura make a lot of assumptions on what they think God can or cannot do.

Exactly. God is capable of anything He wishes to do but being capable of doing something and actually doling it are two very different things. God is capable of ensuring that His believers always have the money they need in their bank accounts, yet how many rely on that beneficence from God? Yet it is even implied in the gospels.
 
Created this today, just for you.

View attachment 283908

Note: I only mention Vaticanus and Sinaiticus because these two manuscripts are generally preferred for the main text of the Nestle and Aland Greek (which underlies the Modern Bibles). The Beza 1598 Greek (except for 25 translatable differences) is what underlies the King James Bible for the New Testament.


.....

Are you sure you should have entitled this as "Modern Versions"? I'm looking at several modern versions that do not agree with the NIV for obvious underlying reasons.
 
Apparently, you do not realize that the dictation theory has a caveat: It refers to the original manuscripts (which we do not have), correctly interpreted.

The key to correct interpretation is viewing the Bible as concerned with communicating God’s will to humanity regarding His requirement for salvation (soteriology): THAT is the Gospel and what is inerrant!

My understanding of the Gospel or Christian creed is this:

The normative way of stating the Gospel kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in Acts 16:31, 2Cor. 4:5 & Col. 2:6). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:
  1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or Creator God (Deut. 6:4, John 3:16, 2Thes. 1:6), who loves sinful humanity (Rom. 5:6-8, John 3:16) and who is both able (2Tim. 1:12) and willing (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
  2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (Rom. 3:23, 2Tim. 3:2-4, Col. 3:5), miserable (Gal. 5:19-21), and hopeless (Eph. 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (Matt. 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (John 3:18, Rom. 2:5-11).
  3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31, Phil. 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (Rom. 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1Cor. 15:14-28).
  4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s grace or justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (Luke 2:11, John 14:6, Acts 16:31), at which moment God’s loving Holy Spirit of Christ indwells/baptizes the believer into the church (Rev. 3:20, Rom. 5:5, 1Cor. 12:13).
  5. Loving Christ Jesus as Lord (Luke 2:11), God the Son (Matt. 16:16) or God in the human dimension (Col. 2:9) means reflecting divine love as empowered by the Holy Spirit, thereby obeying His command to love one another (Matt. 7:21, 22:37-40, John 13:35, Rom. 13:9)—forever (Matt. 10:22, Psa. 113:2), which will eventually achieve spiritual maturity on earth and heaven after Christ returns at God’s resurrection (John 14:6, 17&26, Rom. 8:6-17, Gal. 6:7-9, Eph. 1:13-14, Phil. 3:12-16, Heb. 10:36, 12:1, Jam. 1:2-4).
Which point(s) do you or anyone view as false?

The older I get and the more time I redeem in the Scriptures, the more I think we just make it all too complex.

NKJ Ecc12:10-14 The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth. 11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd. 12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

NKJ 1John3:23-24 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.​

Solomon boiled it down to one issue - one duty - one responsibility - Fear God / Obey God (aka Love God)

John summarized the entire NC - the end of the matter - in 2 commands from God.

Love God, neighbor, one-another - the summary of the Bible - the summary of all Law.

cc: @SilverFox7
 
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The older I get and the more time I redeem in the Scriptures, the more I think we just make it all too complex.

NKJ Ecc12:10-14 The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth. 11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd. 12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

NKJ 1John3:23-24 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.​

Solomon boiled it down to one issue - one duty - one responsibility - Fear God / Obey God (aka Love God)

John summarized the entire NC - the end of the matter - in 2 commands from God.

Love God, neighbor, one-another - the summary of the Bible - the summary of all Law.

cc: @SilverFox7

Yes, we should keep in mind that GRFS is simple enough for a 8 or 9 year old child to understand.
At least I did, and it was "love the Lord and each other" in order to go to heaven.
 
Exactly. God is capable of anything He wishes to do but being capable of doing something and actually doling it are two very different things. God is capable of ensuring that His believers always have the money they need in their bank accounts, yet how many rely on that beneficence from God? Yet it is even implied in the gospels.

Placing the Bible higher than the Creation is not something a lot of others subscribe to.
The Bible comes from the Creation, from the trees, which are turned into paper, where people (who are not blind) can read.
God is found in the Creation first, then when you ask Who is this God, your journey hopefully leads you TO the Bible to find out WHO Jesus Christ is and what's our relationship to the Creator.
 
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Thanks! The NIV has a footnote acknowledging that many mss have the KJV translation, and I can see how both are possible,
because Jesus might very well have been insulted by the leper questioning (in Mark 1:40) whether he was compassionate and willing to heal people. Thus, I see no significant contradiction between the two translations, although I agree with you that the 1984 NIV and KJV are preferable as the primary understanding, and the nuance of indignation should have been the footnote.

BTW, even if the difference is deemed to be a "change", it is contained in a historical rather than a doctrinal passage. If there is an implicit lesson, it would be: Of COURSE Jesus is willing to heal sinners (cf. Matt. 13:14-15, 22:37-40)!

The flip of the coin by the 2011 NIV translators might put this verse in the same vein as when Jesus manifested righteous indignation by driving the moneychangers out of the temple. IOW, the doctrine is that divine indignation/wrath does not contradict divine love.

That was fun BH (my initials also using my nickname). Please share another couplet as time permits.
HAND (Need that emoji as well as praying hands added to the icons :^)

Thanks for the response. One clarification at the outset. Neither the KJV nor the NIV, in any edition, translates Mark 1:40 in a way that suggests doubt in Christ’s ability. Both clearly affirm that Jesus can cleanse the leper. The idea that the leper insulted Jesus by questioning His power is not supported by the English of either translation, and it is not supported by the Greek text.

The real issue begins at the Greek and textual level in Mark 1:40, because this verse sets the grammatical, moral, and narrative context for what follows in Mark 1:41. The Greek text reads:

ἐὰν θέλῃς, δύνασαί με καθαρίσαι

Each element is precise.

ἐὰν
KJV: “if”

This introduces a conditional clause. The condition does not concern Christ’s power, but frames the request.

θέλῃς
KJV: “thou wilt”

Careful modern equivalent: “if it is your will” or “if you are willing”
This verb is in the subjunctive mood, placing uncertainty only on Christ’s will, not His ability. The leper submits himself to Christ’s choice rather than challenging Him.

δύνασαι
KJV: “thou canst”

Careful modern equivalent: “you have the power to”
This is present indicative, a statement of fact. The leper affirms Christ’s ability without hesitation.

με καθαρίσαι
KJV: “make me clean”

Put plainly, the leper is saying, I know you can do this. I submit to whether you choose to. This is humility, not provocation or skepticism. The grammar leaves no room for reading doubt into the plea.

This becomes even clearer when we compare how Greek expresses doubt when doubt is intended. Greek has clear and unmistakable ways to question ability, and Mark does not use them here. In Mark 9:22, the father says:

εἴ τι δύνασαι, βοήθησον ἡμῖν
“If you can at all, help us.”

Here, doubt is explicit. The phrase εἴ τι directly questions ability, and Jesus immediately corrects that doubt in the following verse. Greek also commonly expresses uncertainty using particles such as μήπως or μήποτε, or by framing the statement as an interrogative. None of these features appear in Mark 1:40. Instead, Mark uses a straightforward indicative affirmation of Christ’s power. Grammatically, doubt is excluded.

Because Mark 1:40 contains no doubt, no challenge, and no provocation, it provides no linguistic or contextual basis for portraying Jesus as indignant in response in Mark 1:41. Introducing indignation at that point requires importing a reaction that the grammar and narrative flow do not warrant.

For clarity, it should be noted that when Jesus displays righteous indignation elsewhere in the Gospels, such as in the cleansing of the temple, the text explicitly supplies a cause for His anger. Those passages describe deliberate, willful corruption and abuse of sacred things. Mark 1 presents a completely different situation. There is no stated cause whatsoever for indignation. The grammar of Mark 1:40, the immediate context, and the parallel accounts in Matthew 8:3and Luke 5:13 all portray a humble plea from a broken man seeking mercy. To portray Jesus as indignant at this moment maligns His character by depicting Him as angry without a cause, placing Him under the very warning He Himself gave:

“But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.”
(Matthew 5:22 KJV)

The indignant reading, therefore, introduces a moral and Christological problem that the text itself does not create.

At this point, after the Greek grammar, narrative flow, and moral implications have been weighed, the conclusion follows naturally. For the NIV 2011 translators to introduce indignation here reflects a serious failure of judgment. The Greek syntax excludes doubt, the context supplies no cause for anger, and Christ’s own teaching condemns anger without cause. To overlook or set aside these factors is not a neutral translation decision. It represents a breakdown in the responsible handling of the text. Either these elements were not properly understood, or they were ignored in favor of a minority Western reading driven by Codex D (Codex Bezae) and a small group of Old Latin witnesses.

This also exposes a deeper instability within the NIV tradition itself. The NIV 1984 reads “filled with compassion,” while the NIV 2011 reverses course and reads “indignant,” with a footnote hedging between the two. Which one is the Bible? The reader is left to choose. That is not a single, settled text, but a shape-shifting Bible that changes from edition to edition. In practice, it becomes a pick-and-choose your own adventure approach to Scripture.

Scripture presents a very different model. God is not the author of confusion, and Jesus did not argue competing textual variants of the Hebrew Scriptures with His disciples. He quoted Scripture as settled and authoritative. By contrast, the NIV model asks the reader to navigate competing readings and decide which portrayal of Christ they prefer.

By comparison, the KJV presents a stable reading, and the Greek manuscript evidence explains why that stability exists. Distinguishing between Greek manuscript authority and Latin versional influence does not undermine the KJV. It strengthens its defense. Mark 1:40 and Mark 1:41 read grammatically, contextually, and morally coherent when compassion, not indignation, is recognized as the original sense, faithfully preserving the character of Christ revealed in the Gospels.


Side Note

Scripture itself affirms the legitimacy of using real-world illustrations and analogies to explain and defend spiritual truth. In Matthew 15:26–28 (KJV), Jesus uses a brief parabolic statement when He says, “It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs.” The Canaanite woman responds by extending His illustration with a real-world application: “Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” Jesus does not rebuke her for expanding His example, nor does He say that only He may use parables or real-world illustrations. Instead, He commends her faith and grants her request. This demonstrates that using everyday examples to illustrate spiritual truth is not improper, but can be appropriate and insightful when done rightly.

That principle matters here. Real-world reasoning exposes the weakness of a shape-shifting, pick-and-choose approach to Scripture. No one would test-fly an airplane knowing it was built from contradicting schematics that disagreed at critical points. No one would purchase a house governed by multiple conflicting contracts, each worded slightly differently and all capable of causing serious financial harm. If such instability is unacceptable in matters of safety and livelihood, then why accept it in a book that deals with your very soul?

A Bible tradition that continually revises, hedges, and reverses itself forces the reader into uncertainty rather than confidence. Scripture presents a very different model. God is not the author of confusion, and the words of Scripture are treated by Christ and the apostles as settled and authoritative. Real-world illustrations do not replace Scripture, but they help expose the practical and spiritual consequences of abandoning a stable textual foundation.




....
 
Since I am not omniscient, there are things I don’t know and are wrong about, but I believe one can be wrong about something but still be in a saved condition.

Well, we must meet God's condition for salvation to be in a saved condition,
but one's understanding of GRFS will be amended/fine-tuned as more of GW is learned.
At least that is my experience based on my understanding at age seven and my current understanding at age 75.
 
Are you sure you should have entitled this as "Modern Versions"? I'm looking at several modern versions that do not agree with the NIV for obvious underlying reasons.

This image is only one panel from a larger slide that documents multiple textual and translation changes found across Modern Versions as a category. The purpose of the slide is not to claim that every modern translation agrees on every change, but to show how modern translation methodology has produced real and sometimes significant departures from the historic reading of the text. The NIV 2011 is properly included under Modern Versions because it belongs to that category by era and method, even if it stands alone on this particular verse. That is not a contradiction. It simply illustrates that within the modern translation movement, individual versions can and do make divergent decisions. The category identifies the source and approach behind the change, not a numerical consensus.



…..
 
This image is only one panel from a larger slide that documents multiple textual and translation changes found across Modern Versions as a category. The purpose of the slide is not to claim that every modern translation agrees on every change, but to show how modern translation methodology has produced real and sometimes significant departures from the historic reading of the text. The NIV 2011 is properly included under Modern Versions because it belongs to that category by era and method, even if it stands alone on this particular verse. That is not a contradiction. It simply illustrates that within the modern translation movement, individual versions can and do make divergent decisions. The category identifies the source and approach behind the change, not a numerical consensus.



…..
As a stand-alone image it came across as misleading - suggesting modern translations disagree with the KJV
 
Thanks for the response. One clarification at the outset. Neither the KJV nor the NIV, in any edition, translates Mark 1:40 in a way that suggests doubt in Christ’s ability. Both clearly affirm that Jesus can cleanse the leper. The idea that the leper insulted Jesus by questioning His power is not supported by the English of either translation, and it is not supported by the Greek text.

The real issue begins at the Greek and textual level in Mark 1:40, because this verse sets the grammatical, moral, and narrative context for what follows in Mark 1:41. The Greek text reads:

ἐὰν θέλῃς, δύνασαί με καθαρίσαι

Each element is precise.

ἐὰν
KJV: “if”

This introduces a conditional clause. The condition does not concern Christ’s power, but frames the request.

θέλῃς
KJV: “thou wilt”

Careful modern equivalent: “if it is your will” or “if you are willing”
This verb is in the subjunctive mood, placing uncertainty only on Christ’s will, not His ability. The leper submits himself to Christ’s choice rather than challenging Him.

δύνασαι
KJV: “thou canst”

Careful modern equivalent: “you have the power to”
This is present indicative, a statement of fact. The leper affirms Christ’s ability without hesitation.

με καθαρίσαι
KJV: “make me clean”

Put plainly, the leper is saying, I know you can do this. I submit to whether you choose to. This is humility, not provocation or skepticism. The grammar leaves no room for reading doubt into the plea.

This becomes even clearer when we compare how Greek expresses doubt when doubt is intended. Greek has clear and unmistakable ways to question ability, and Mark does not use them here. In Mark 9:22, the father says:

εἴ τι δύνασαι, βοήθησον ἡμῖν
“If you can at all, help us.”

Here, doubt is explicit. The phrase εἴ τι directly questions ability, and Jesus immediately corrects that doubt in the following verse. Greek also commonly expresses uncertainty using particles such as μήπως or μήποτε, or by framing the statement as an interrogative. None of these features appear in Mark 1:40. Instead, Mark uses a straightforward indicative affirmation of Christ’s power. Grammatically, doubt is excluded.

Because Mark 1:40 contains no doubt, no challenge, and no provocation, it provides no linguistic or contextual basis for portraying Jesus as indignant in response in Mark 1:41. Introducing indignation at that point requires importing a reaction that the grammar and narrative flow do not warrant.

For clarity, it should be noted that when Jesus displays righteous indignation elsewhere in the Gospels, such as in the cleansing of the temple, the text explicitly supplies a cause for His anger. Those passages describe deliberate, willful corruption and abuse of sacred things. Mark 1 presents a completely different situation. There is no stated cause whatsoever for indignation. The grammar of Mark 1:40, the immediate context, and the parallel accounts in Matthew 8:3and Luke 5:13 all portray a humble plea from a broken man seeking mercy. To portray Jesus as indignant at this moment maligns His character by depicting Him as angry without a cause, placing Him under the very warning He Himself gave:

“But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.”
(Matthew 5:22 KJV)

The indignant reading, therefore, introduces a moral and Christological problem that the text itself does not create.

At this point, after the Greek grammar, narrative flow, and moral implications have been weighed, the conclusion follows naturally. For the NIV 2011 translators to introduce indignation here reflects a serious failure of judgment. The Greek syntax excludes doubt, the context supplies no cause for anger, and Christ’s own teaching condemns anger without cause. To overlook or set aside these factors is not a neutral translation decision. It represents a breakdown in the responsible handling of the text. Either these elements were not properly understood, or they were ignored in favor of a minority Western reading driven by Codex D (Codex Bezae) and a small group of Old Latin witnesses.

This also exposes a deeper instability within the NIV tradition itself. The NIV 1984 reads “filled with compassion,” while the NIV 2011 reverses course and reads “indignant,” with a footnote hedging between the two. Which one is the Bible? The reader is left to choose. That is not a single, settled text, but a shape-shifting Bible that changes from edition to edition. In practice, it becomes a pick-and-choose your own adventure approach to Scripture.

Scripture presents a very different model. God is not the author of confusion, and Jesus did not argue competing textual variants of the Hebrew Scriptures with His disciples. He quoted Scripture as settled and authoritative. By contrast, the NIV model asks the reader to navigate competing readings and decide which portrayal of Christ they prefer.

By comparison, the KJV presents a stable reading, and the Greek manuscript evidence explains why that stability exists. Distinguishing between Greek manuscript authority and Latin versional influence does not undermine the KJV. It strengthens its defense. Mark 1:40 and Mark 1:41 read grammatically, contextually, and morally coherent when compassion, not indignation, is recognized as the original sense, faithfully preserving the character of Christ revealed in the Gospels.


Side Note

Scripture itself affirms the legitimacy of using real-world illustrations and analogies to explain and defend spiritual truth. In Matthew 15:26–28 (KJV), Jesus uses a brief parabolic statement when He says, “It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs.” The Canaanite woman responds by extending His illustration with a real-world application: “Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” Jesus does not rebuke her for expanding His example, nor does He say that only He may use parables or real-world illustrations. Instead, He commends her faith and grants her request. This demonstrates that using everyday examples to illustrate spiritual truth is not improper, but can be appropriate and insightful when done rightly.

That principle matters here. Real-world reasoning exposes the weakness of a shape-shifting, pick-and-choose approach to Scripture. No one would test-fly an airplane knowing it was built from contradicting schematics that disagreed at critical points. No one would purchase a house governed by multiple conflicting contracts, each worded slightly differently and all capable of causing serious financial harm. If such instability is unacceptable in matters of safety and livelihood, then why accept it in a book that deals with your very soul?

A Bible tradition that continually revises, hedges, and reverses itself forces the reader into uncertainty rather than confidence. Scripture presents a very different model. God is not the author of confusion, and the words of Scripture are treated by Christ and the apostles as settled and authoritative. Real-world illustrations do not replace Scripture, but they help expose the practical and spiritual consequences of abandoning a stable textual foundation.

....

Another clarification is that I said Mark 1:40 questions whether Jesus was compassionate and willing to heal people,
not whether Jesus had the power to do so, and that is the reason Jesus might have responded with righteous indignation
as well as compassion. Granted, this is not explicitly stated in the verse.

Moving on, do you agree with my point that even if the difference is deemed to be a "change", it is contained in a historical rather than a doctrinal passage, and if there is an implicit lesson/doctrine/teaching, it would be: Of COURSE Jesus is willing to heal sinners (cf. Matt. 13:14-15, 22:37-40)!

Also, do you agree that divine indignation/wrath does not contradict divine love?

I am ready to consider another one of the 77 changes whenever you have time to share it.
 
Yes, we should keep in mind that GRFS is simple enough for a 8 or 9 year old child to understand.
At least I did, and it was "love the Lord and each other" in order to go to heaven.

I'll bet when you became a bit older, you came to understand that love was in truth not a feeling. Maybe with your upbringing you were taught this truth at an early age.
 
As a stand-alone image it came across as misleading - suggesting modern translations disagree with the KJV

But logic dictates also that the NIV is not in its own category, separate from the other Modern Bibles. They share the same history with the Westcott and Hort / Nestle and Aland Greek Critical Text for the New Testament. The NIV does not have a different underlying textual Greek stream from the ESV, NASB, CSB, and others. That is why I can say the NIV falls under the category of Modern Versions. So even if it was mentioned in isolation, if you are truly aware of the underlying text and the issues involved, you would not see the NIV as a separate animal from the other Modern Versions because it uses the Nestle and Aland Greek like the other Modern Bibles. It’s why I showed the underlying Greek involved.


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Another clarification is that I said Mark 1:40 questions whether Jesus was compassionate and willing to heal people,
not whether Jesus had the power to do so, and that is the reason Jesus might have responded with righteous indignation
as well as compassion. Granted, this is not explicitly stated in the verse.

Moving on, do you agree with my point that even if the difference is deemed to be a "change", it is contained in a historical rather than a doctrinal passage, and if there is an implicit lesson/doctrine/teaching, it would be: Of COURSE Jesus is willing to heal sinners (cf. Matt. 13:14-15, 22:37-40)!

Also, do you agree that divine indignation/wrath does not contradict divine love?

I am ready to consider another one of the 77 changes whenever you have time to share it.

Before even addressing the grammar, there is a fundamental problem of instability that your position cannot escape. No rational person would test-fly an airplane built from contradicting schematics, and no one would purchase a house governed by multiple conflicting contracts, each carrying serious consequences. Yet this is precisely what is being defended here. A translation that reverses itself and then insists the later reading must be upheld creates a situation where, if you debated your pre-2011 self without naming the version, you would be arguing against yourself over the same verse. That is not refinement of the text, but confusion, and it forces the reader into arbitration rather than submission to a settled authority.

Turning to the text itself, the proposed explanation still does not arise from the grammar of the passage, either in Greek or in English. In Mark 1:40, both the KJV and the NIV translate the sentence as a respectful conditional appeal, not as a challenge to Christ’s compassion or willingness. The English construction “If thou wilt, thou canst make me clean” reflects a long-established idiom of submission. The conditional clause recognizes authority; it does not probe character. Grammatically, the condition governs will, not disposition. Nothing in the English syntax signals accusation, testing, or provocation.

This is reinforced by normal English usage. Conditional language does not imply doubt by default. In both Early Modern English and contemporary English, “if” often functions as a deferential framing device. Expressions such as “If you will allow” or “If you please” do not question goodwill; they acknowledge authority. The KJV accurately preserves this idiomatic sense, and the NIV’s English does as well. Neither translation linguistically suggests that the leper was questioning Jesus’ compassion.

The narrative structure also matters. When Jesus is misunderstood, challenged, or morally provoked elsewhere, the text consistently records a correction, rebuke, or teaching moment. Here, no such response appears. The request is immediately granted. From a narrative standpoint, that response aligns naturally with compassion rather than indignation. An angry response without stated cause or correction would be out of place in the flow of the account.

The Greek confirms this reading. The verb δύνασαι is indicative and declarative, affirming ability. The leper is not questioning whether Jesus can act, nor whether He is compassionate, but affirming Christ’s power while submitting to His will. The sentence structure encodes humility and trust, not tension. Any reading that introduces indignation must therefore import psychological motives that the grammar itself does not convey.

There is also an important historical consideration. The majority of Greek manuscripts did not transmit the indignant reading, and that is not accidental. The manuscript tradition reflects sustained judgment by generations of scribes who recognized which readings fit the grammar, context, and portrayal of Christ, and which did not. Readings that disrupt narrative coherence or create Christological difficulty tend not to spread widely. The compassion reading fits the passage naturally, while the indignant reading introduces difficulty that must be explained away.

For clarity, passages where Jesus displays righteous indignation elsewhere in the Gospels, such as the cleansing of the temple, explicitly state the cause for His anger. Mark 1 does not. Introducing indignation here portrays Jesus as angry without cause, which conflicts with His own warning in Matthew 5:22. That is not a minor historical detail. It directly affects how Christ’s character is presented.

At this point, the indignant reading has still not been adequately defended from the text itself. It is unsupported by the immediate context, by the English grammar of Mark 1:40, and by the Greek grammar underlying the passage. What has been offered in its defense is a speculative narrative imposed on the text rather than one derived from it. Ultimately, insisting on indignation here violates the flow of the passage, the teaching of Scripture, and the principle of a stable text, replacing submission to God’s word with a pick-and-choose, shape-shifting Bible mindset.

If this is the approach you are going to take, then there really is no point in moving on to other verses. At this stage, you already made a decision regardless of what the English says or what the Greek actually shows. In other words, when the text itself no longer controls the your understanding of God's Word or your conclusion, continuing this discussion on other verses will not really accomplish anything.

However, if you change your mind in your approach, my writeup is available for you to read. All I can do is encourage you to keep an open mind and look at the larger pattern of changes found in Modern Bibles, which includes the NIV as well.




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Possible, yes, but given humanities track record I would not count on it. Even a blind squirrel is capable of finding a nut.

There are six possible translations of Colossians 2:20 based on the Greek with six different ultimate meanings. How certain are you that you know the proper one as opposed to the one that makes you feel the most comfortable?
Ok, then how do you know what is right? And how do you know you’re not wrong? Did God leave us a book that does not tell us how to have eternal life, or we are just having to come up with a way all on our own?
 
Before asking which God exists, we have to sort claims into categories.

Some “gods” are:

1. Mythological (local deities tied to places or stories)

2. Philosophical abstractions (an impersonal force, energy, or principle)

3. Personal, historical claims (a God who acts, speaks, reveals, and enters history)

Only the last category is even capable of being tested in any meaningful way.

A god who is merely a symbol, energy, or metaphor cannot be proven or disproven. It explains nothing and demands nothing.

Contingent things exist (including us). Contingent things cannot explain themselves without appealing to something and someone else. An infinite regress of contingent causes explains nothing. Therefore, a necessary, self-existent, non-contingent being must exist

This immediately rules out: Created gods. Finite gods. Gods bounded within the universe. Gods dependent on something else

Whatever God exists must be eternal, immaterial, powerful, and necessary. That already eliminates most religious claims.

Internal coherence matters (law of non-contradiction). Two gods making mutually exclusive claims cannot both be true. Examples: God is personal vs. God is impersonal. God speaks vs. God never speaks. God entered history vs. God never can. God is one vs. God is many.

Contradictory claims mean at least one is false.

Revelation must be historically anchored. If God reveals Himself, that revelation must: Occur in real time. Involve identifiable people. Leave a public record.

Private visions, inner feelings, or mystical experiences fail here. They are unverifiable and indistinguishable from psychology.

Only a God who acts in history can be known. Christianity stands or falls on a single, testable claim: The test of resurrection.

God raised Jesus from the dead. Not philosophy. Not ethics. Not feelings. A public execution. An empty tomb. Eyewitness testimony. Hostile witnesses. A transformed movement willing to die for what they claimed to see.

Paul was blunt:

“If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile.” (1 Cor. 15)

No other religion places everything on a historical event that could have collapsed if false.

The nature of the God revealed must match the necessary being

The God of Scripture: Is self-existent (“I AM”). Created all things. Is not part of the universe. Acts with purpose. Reveals moral law. Judges evil. Enters creation without being limited by it.

Other concepts of god either: Collapse into impersonal force
Depend on the universe
Contain contradictions
Or cannot explain moral obligation, reason, or truth itself

Finite gods are out
Created gods are out
Gods dependent on the universe are out
Impersonal forces are out (forces don’t issue moral law or speak).

Conclusion: From contingency alone, the God of all creation must be eternal, uncaused, immaterial, immensely powerful, and necessary. That already eliminates polytheism, because multiple “gods” would either differ or depend on something else to distinguish them. It also eliminates gods who are born, created, localized, or limited by nature. Any god who exists and is bounded within time, space, matter, or hierarchy cannot be the ultimate explanation for those things.

So the true God, if He exists, must be one, eternal, non-physical, necessary, and independent.

Second, we ask whether this necessary being is personal or impersonal. An impersonal cause cannot explain persons. You do not get minds from non-mind, rationality from non-rationality, moral obligation from indifference, or intentional order from brute force. Laws do not create themselves, and abstractions do not act. If reason, morality, and consciousness exist, the source must have reason, will, and intention. That points to a personal God, not a force, not an energy field, not an abstract principle.

That rules out pantheism and impersonal deism.

Third, we ask whether this God has revealed Himself in history.

If God exists and created rational beings, it is reasonable to expect communication. Not vague impressions, not private mysticism, but public, historical revelation that can be examined, challenged, preserved, and transmitted. The real God would not reveal Himself only to an inner circle with unverifiable experiences. He would act in history in ways that can be investigated.

Christianity alone makes a falsifiable historical claim: Jesus of Nazareth rose from the dead.

That matters enormously. A resurrection is not a mythological idea or philosophical abstraction. It is an event claim. Either it happened or it didn’t. And if it did, then God has spoken decisively.

No other religion stakes its entire truth claim on a single public, historical event and invites scrutiny the way Christianity does.
 
I'll bet when you became a bit older, you came to understand that love was in truth not a feeling. Maybe with your upbringing you were taught this truth at an early age.

Yes, my parents were loving, so I understood love to mean wanting to cooperate with their will, not obeying because of fear.
Their commitment to the Lord and each other lasted for 70 years until death.
And although marital love included romance, that is not what love for God means.
 
But logic dictates also that the NIV is not in its own category, separate from the other Modern Bibles. They share the same history with the Westcott and Hort / Nestle and Aland Greek Critical Text for the New Testament. The NIV does not have a different underlying textual Greek stream from the ESV, NASB, CSB, and others. That is why I can say the NIV falls under the category of Modern Versions. So even if it was mentioned in isolation, if you are truly aware of the underlying text and the issues involved, you would not see the NIV as a separate animal from the other Modern Versions because it uses the Nestle and Aland Greek like the other Modern Bibles. It’s why I showed the underlying Greek involved.


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You're obviously free to see logic any way you so desire and to classify anything any way you want to classify it.

My point was simple - when I first glanced at your graphic, its headings say Modern Versions and KJV - then looking at the fine print it looks like NIV broke ranks to go with Codex D, so it's off on it's own where it did so - thus in this instance it looks like it's actually NIV vs. KJV here, and not Modern Versions vs. KJV since the other modern versions' chosen manuscripts apparently agree with the TR in this instance.

IOW, in this instance your graphic uses an exception to criticize "Modern Versions" when most "Modern Versions" apparently agree with the KJV.