Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Kroogz]

How do you think it becomes ours?

This should not be a legitimate question anymore. The only reason it is asked is because of the FENCE they try to teeter on.

It becomes "theirs" because they were sitting on their fat butts, eating, drinking and being very merry......And BAM God regenerated them.

And it's our fault for not "getting" what they are truly saying.

And notice......The Lord Jesus Christ is nowhere in their salvation......Just the sovereignty of a god.

 

[Kroogz]

He's what we Aussies call a whinging Pom.

You have provided us with a flawless,ideal,impeccable,supreme,complete,absolute,consummate ,total,accurate,exact,correct,utter and precise definition.

 

[Kroogz]

@rogerg.......What do you tell unbelievers who ask you.......What must I do to be saved?




Paul told them.......Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ...



You calvies must have risen above and beyond Paul.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

He possessed the praise of God who had exalted Job.

my understanding is that God removed His hedge from Job ... that the only restriction was that satan could not take the life of Job:

Job 2:6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

Job endured the terrible onslaught of the adversary ... Job remained steadfast in faith.

Job was familiar with a close relationship with God ... however, in chapter 23 Job cried out in anguish because God had removed His hedge:

Job 23:3, 8-12

3 Oh that I knew where I might find him! that I might come even to his seat!

...

8 Behold, I go forward, but he is not there; and backward, but I cannot perceive him:

9 On the left hand, where he doth work, but I cannot behold him: he hideth himself on the right hand, that I cannot see him:

10 But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold.

11 My foot hath held his steps, his way have I kept, and not declined.

12 Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.

Job held fast to God's promises, esteeming His Word more precious than food. Job's faith was deeply rooted in God and His promises.

I wonder how many of us would fare if we were put to the test as Job was ... reading through the pages of this thread, I seriously doubt we would measure up ... just sayin'


Ezekiel wrote concerning Job ...

Ezekiel 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 14:20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

high commendation from the Lord God.


then we also read in James ...

James 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

"patience of Job" ... the word "patience" is a noun ... Greek word hypomonē [Strongs G5281] ... which means endurance, steadfastness, perseverance, patient waiting; the character quality or the state of mind that endures during trying times.

the word "endure" is a verb ... Greek word hypomenō [Strongs G5278] ... which means to remain i. e. abide, not recede or flee; to bravely and calmly persevere: remain steadfast, under misfortunes and trials to hold fast to one's faith.

We live in a time in which the presence of God is within each born again believer ... we are not as Job who was left bereft when God removed His hedge. Job endured much suffering at the hand of satan ... yet we are reduced to name-calling and mudslinging at the slightest reproof.


One of my favorite verses ... and a verse all my children memorized from an early age ... is Hebrews 10:36 ...

Hebrews 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

as they got older, vs 37 was added as well ...

Hebrews 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

for those who know the end of the book ... we can endure a little longer ... He will come. Keeping this great and precious promise in the forefront of our minds helps us to endure whatever we face in this life.

disclosure ... I am well aware that it's God holding on to us more than us holding on to Him ... but we also strive to hear the words "well done good and faithful servant" ... so spare me "works oriented" the comments ... thanks!
.

 

[rogerg]

@rogerg.......What do you tell unbelievers who ask you.......What must I do to be saved?




Paul told them.......Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ...



You calvies must have risen above and beyond Paul.

I tell them there is nothing anyone can do to make themselves saved - that Christ alone is the Savior, and that man is not. That is what Savior means - that He is the one who saves. If you believe you can do something to save yourself, then you simply don't believe Christ is the Savior - it ain't complicated and we've tried to explain this simple truth to you before .... but unfortunately, without success. You can't have it both ways - He is the Savior and is solely the one who saves, or you don't really believe that He is, no middle ground!

 

[Jordon]

Actually, I did notice it, and agree with him. You keep throwing shade and others will continue to see your immaturity.


The word is “you’re”, and I’m glad you find my contributions humorous.

no what you lot keep doing here is provoking and when you get a response back you don't like it gives you all more grounds to insult us further, and even when I've responded in kindness and tried to appeal to yours and there better nature it only make a difference to those who actually care and respect dignity like @reneweddaybyday, who's a lovely caring person, only you lot don't want to take a blind bit of notice of my caring nature.

Because your all to busy being horrible

Again, no mention of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Why?

Again, no mention of the Lord Jesus Christ.

You guys consistently and constantly refuse to mention Him or explain about Him in your posts.

Many of us KNOW why.........His very name is salvation for anyone who trusts in Him.

I'm not taking notice of you anymore because of your attitude. And I certainly don't have to take lectures from you, you who share the word of God on the bases we don't believe, err I don't think so

I'll share Christ with people and I have no problem doing so , but your not about that, your about making out we don't have Christ unless it falls inline with your understanding. Just like the rest of your crew, where as where only about showing God saves you.

And your wham bam attitude of us recieving christ is completely disrespectful , and your constant miss representations of our faith to be something it's not, and like the other calvinist bashers in This thread, who have no reguard for any of the good insight given to you by many people here, people who are well mannered, respectful Christians, giving their time and effort for you lot just to kick us all below the belt.

Your haters

 

[Tex_MidwesternerNW]

So, let me refer to this passage in Genesis 8:20

"Then Noah built an altar to the Lord, and there he sacrificed as burnt offerings the animals and birds that had been approved for that purpose,* And the Lord was pleased with the aroma of the sacrifice and said to himself, "I will never again curse the ground because of the human race, even though everything they think or imagine is bent toward evil from childhood. I will never again destroy all living things. As long as the earth remains, there will be planting and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night.""

Yes, actually; people have free will. This does not cause his Glory to be dependent on our need for His mercy which does not lift us from despair to despair. We select groceries. That is free will. We stop working on Sunday. That is free will. What we are not free to do is to sin, for the wages of death that our soul would be so insulted to entertain. And yet we do. And He would not be more merciful to so many more people than this promise, if it were not that the children of Abraham were not promised more radiance than His Real Presence.

 

[lrs68]

What part of these verses do you not comprehend. They are really quite clear. Do you see the "NEITHER PRAY I FOR THESE ALONE" and "BUT FOR THEM ALSO WHICH SHALL BELIEVE ON ME..." in v20, which is continued in v21 with "THAT THEY ALL MAY BE ONE"? Do you see the "ALL MAY BE ONE" - that Jesus made no distinction in His prayer between His disciples and those who would believe through them - that they may all be ONE?

Jesus's prayer was for all who would ever believe, not just those particular disciples who were with Him then.

[Jhn 17:20 KJV] 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

[Jhn 17:21 KJV] 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

You can be a broken record all you want but the only ones who personally knew Jesus like He was saying is the Disciples. You have never met Him in person but that Verse talks about the ones who have.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

So, let me refer to this passage in Genesis 8:20

"Then Noah built an altar to the Lord, and there he sacrificed as burnt offerings the animals and birds that had been approved for that purpose,* And the Lord was pleased with the aroma of the sacrifice and said to himself, "I will never again curse the ground because of the human race, even though everything they think or imagine is bent toward evil from childhood. I will never again destroy all living things. As long as the earth remains, there will be planting and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night.""

Yes, actually; people have free will. This does not cause his Glory to be dependent on our need for His mercy which does not lift us from despair to despair. We select groceries. That is free will. We stop working on Sunday. That is free will. What we are not free to do is to sin, for the wages of death that our soul would be so insulted to entertain. And yet we do. And He would not be more merciful to so many more people than this promise, if it were not that the children of Abraham were not promised more radiance than His Real Presence.

Hi Tex ... there is a term abounding in this thread ... "FWer" or "free willer" or words to that effect. All definitions of the term provided so far fail to accurately describe what is believed by those who are referred to as "FWer" or "free willer".

on the other hand, there is the term "calvinist" or "calvie" which those who are referred to by that term claim they are not "calvinist".

however ... between all the name-calling and argumentation, there are some solid gold nuggets of truth ... just have to ferret them out ...

if you hang more than a nanosecond, learning is available.

.

 

[Tex_MidwesternerNW]

Hi Tex ... there is a term abounding in this thread ... "FWer" or "free willer" or words to that effect. All definitions of the term provided so far fail to accurately describe what is believed by those who are referred to as "FWer" or "free willer".

on the other hand, there is the term "calvinist" or "calvie" which those who are referred to by that term claim they are not "calvinist".

however ... between all the name-calling and argumentation, there are some solid gold nuggets of truth ... just have to ferret them out ...

if you hang more than a nanosecond, learning is available.

.

Beg pardon, no real use for name calling. I have a background worshiping with people who are Calvinist but I am technically WELS.

 

[sawdust]

More garbage. Now I'm a terrorist to boot. Such great discernment. @sawdust, you getting this great discernment and humility?

I saw he thinks you believe a lie like terrorists believe a lie. If you think that makes you a terrorist? What can I say? He never called you a terrorist. If an apple is sweet like an orange, does that make it an orange?

You need to stop making it all about you.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Beg pardon, no real use for name calling.

agree

I have a background worshiping with people who are Calvinist but I am technically WELS.

I believe all who are born again are members in particular in the one body (the church) over which the Lord Jesus Christ is the Head ... each member placed in the body where it has pleased God ...

1 Corinthians 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

.

 

[Tex_MidwesternerNW]

I saw he thinks you believe a lie like terrorists believe a lie. If you think that makes you a terrorist? What can I say? He never called you a terrorist. If an apple is sweet like an orange, does that make it an orange?

You need to stop making it all about you.

And that's where I won't argue!

 

[rogerg]

You can be a broken record all you want but the only ones who personally knew Jesus like He was saying is the Disciples. You have never met Him in person but that Verse talks about the ones who have.

Yeah, unfortunately, I have to keep repeating myself because you are unable to grasp what Scripture is saying.
Read @Rufus's post 33,457. You are truncating Jesus's prayer - it is a single prayer - and thereby you try to reduce its full scope.
What Jesus said, He said, for all who would believe in Him - there aren't two ways to salvation,
It's easy for you to make the prayer sound the way you want it to when you pick and choose the verses that support your belief and ignore the others.
What you're missing is that meeting Him in person is not a requirement, meeting Him is. I believe you quoted v25 but neglected to include v26. It tells us that Jesus has declared His name, and WILL declare it to the others; that is, He will meet them too - shoots you down pretty well, doesn't it?

[Jhn 17:26 KJV] 26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare [it]: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

 

[Tex_MidwesternerNW]

agree





I believe all who are born again are members in particular in the one body (the church) over which the Lord Jesus Christ is the Head ... each member placed in the body where it has pleased God ...

1 Corinthians 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

.

Well thank you, I do believe. Moreover, what do you think of the Lutheran Church? I want to be held by the hands that saw me as a youth, carrying the lamp wick. Maybe that's sentimental. Probably stewardship requires something more like singing with the Divine Service.

 

[lrs68]

Yeah, unfortunately, I have to keep repeating myself because you are unable to grasp what Scripture is saying.
Read @Rufus's post 33,457. You are truncating Jesus's prayer - it is a single prayer - and thereby you try to reduce its full scope.
What Jesus said, He said, for all who would believe in Him - there aren't two ways to salvation,
It's easy for you to make the prayer sound the way you want it to when you pick and choose the verses that support your belief and ignore the others.
What you're missing is that meeting Him in person is not a requirement, meeting Him is. I believe you quoted v25 but neglected to include v26. It tells us that Jesus WILL declare His name to the others; that is, He will meet them too - shoots you down pretty well, doesn't it?

[Jhn 17:26 KJV] 26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare [it]: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

The problem with You and Others like You is that I am pointing out the truth without denying any other truth but the illogics surrounding the Reformed beliefs are too fragile to allow truths if they haven't been defined by men.

 

[rogerg]

The problem with You and Others like You is that I am pointing out the truth without denying any other truth but the illogics surrounding the Reformed beliefs are too fragile to allow truths if they haven't been defined by men.

Say whaaat? That sounds like something I once heard someone say back in the '60's in a dark room with Ravi Shankar playing in the background. So, I'll just say.... far out, man... and leave it at that.

 

[lrs68]

Let's truly examine the Verse that both Rufus and Roger keep trying to shove down our throats.

20 Neither for these only do I pray, but for them also that believe on me through their word.

The Disciples words would have been to the 1st Century Jew and Gentile.

Even the written Gospels are from the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit than the personal words of the Disciples.

So as I have claimed John 17 does not refer to any one of us today.

 

[lrs68]

Say whaaat? That sounds like something I once heard someone say back in the '60's in a dark room with Ravi Shankar playing in the background. So, I'll just say.... far out, man... and leave it at that.

Let's truly examine the Verse that both Rufus and Roger keep trying to shove down our throats.

20 Neither for these only do I pray, but for them also that believe on me through their word.

The Disciples words would have been to the 1st Century Jew and Gentile.

Even the written Gospels are from the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit than the personal words of the Disciples.

So as I have claimed John 17 does not refer to any one of us today.

 

[Cameron143]

I saw he thinks you believe a lie like terrorists believe a lie. If you think that makes you a terrorist? What can I say? He never called you a terrorist. If an apple is sweet like an orange, does that make it an orange?

You need to stop making it all about you.

That's funny. I'm the one giving God all the credit and glory. You guys make things about man and yourselves.