WHAT????? CHURCH FATHERS WERE PRETRIB ???

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Well, did you read my quotes or not? I made no claim as to what the Bible teaches, I quoted you the early Church writings. That is all I did. You can call them wrong, but you can't say they were not post-tribbers. We don't go by the ECFs, we go by the Scriptures. IF you believe the Bible teaches pre-trib rapture you should stick with that.

I agree, it is not true that Darby invented it.
Yes many were postribbers.

I know that means a lot to postribbers, and has become the foundation of their doctrine inspite of scripture.

Ironically they use the "shoot the messanger", methodology, and that methodology is a fluke, once the truth is on the table.

The vid puts the truth on the table.
 
In the video, Lee Brainard says he's never formally studied Greek. He says he taught himself Greek using a Greek New Testament, a Geek lexicon and a book on Greek grammar. He said he translated documents that hadn't been translated into English; these form the basis of his claims. I'm not sure how much I want to trust my rapture beliefs to an amateur translator who has some unknown Greek manuscripts. I'd be curious to know if anyone else has seen them or if he has them in a safe in his basement.
 
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At around 18:00 he makes the mistake of saying there are 2 salvation programs: individual and national.
If you think allagorizing everything is the best start, you are guaranteed error.
Part of the vast error in eschatology is people with false presumed doctrine alagorizing verses that debunk their doctrine.
Allegory is no bogey man.
Allegory to make stuff fit is a circus.

Take a look at the 144,000 debate.
It is a circus what they do.
They just can not be who and what the biblecsays they are.
I find that a sick joke against God's word.

This is the straw man pre-tribbers erect: literal vs allegorical. Read carefully again what I wrote. I reject that framing
 
Yes many were postribbers.

I know that means a lot to postribbers, and has become the foundation of their doctrine inspite of scripture.

Ironically they use the "shoot the messanger", methodology, and that methodology is a fluke, once the truth is on the table.

The vid puts the truth on the table.
I would agree. If we were to listen to the ECFs we would all be catholics. Not only that, but they couldn't agree on many things amongst themselves. If you compare Origen to Justin Martyr, they have completely different methods of interpretation.
 
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God is love and loves all people.

But one day He has to end sin on earth.

So He is giving the world 7 years to have their way to go against the truth.

Since the world has 7 years to have their way to go against the truth then the saints will remain on earth because they represent the truth.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

There is only 2 resurrections, 1 of the saints, and 1 of the dead that happens later.

Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

When the resurrection happens the hypocrites and the world will not be able to be with God.

That means there is no tribulations saints.

That means the pre-trib does not happen because the beast makes war against the saints.

Which if it was pre-trib there would be no saints on earth.

Also the tribulation is not for the 7 years period but for the last three and one half years.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Also the tribulation is for the saints because the world goes against the truth.

And the days are shortened for the elect so the saints are on earth.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The saints will not be gathered unto Christ the resurrection until there is a falling away first.

And the man of sin claims to be God which happens in the middle of the 7 years period.

For the first three and one half years salvation is still available to the world.

So the saints will remain on earth to represent the truth.

And there is only 1 resurrection and all the saints will go up together.

When the world takes the mark of the beast then salvation is no longer available to the world.

And then the saints can be resurrected.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise,

and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws:

and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven,

and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half;

and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

But the beast makes war against the saints and overcomes them and destroys the mighty and holy people physically.

And they are given in to his hands for the last three and one half years.

And when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people all things will be finished.

Which then comes the end for all things are finished when the Son delivers up the kingdom to God.

And then He will put down all power, rule, and authority.

Which means the heathen do not continue but they are put down.

But if the resurrection happens before the 7 years period or in the middle the heathen continue which they would not.

That is why the resurrection cannot happen before the 7 years period or in the middle because the heathen continue.

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Also the wrath of God is not in the 7 years period because salvation is still available to the world during the first half.

So it is the same as now and grace is still in operation.

And the beast has power from God to rule the world.

So the wrath of God would not be there.

For if God is allowing the beast to have his way and power to rule why would God go against him and his kingdom for the last half.

The antichrist will have a belief system that exalts people based on the occult and there is no personal God.

Which he will try to convince the world that their religions are compatible all interpreted by his belief system.

Which will also pull in atheists.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron.

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

The time will come that people will not want to hear the fundamentals of the Bible that were taught for years.

But want to hear the Bible according to their own lusts.

2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

When the resurrection does not happen before the 7 years period it will overthrow the faith of some.

And they will follow the antichrist's belief system.
 
In the last part of the vid,we see a ton of reference to ancient pre trib rapture teaching.

In this life.. how others treat me is not the way I am going to treat them. I treat them the way I would like to be treated. So you believe Christ comes after the great tribulation . I disagree I can share why.. but you are looking for Him.. watching for Him.. praise God. It is written and known they watched for Him to come any moment. There was no split at the start. Its like they believed saw, had the fruits of the holy Spirit.. the gifts.. healing, tongues all of it which today is called dead gone and those that still believe have the fruits are made fun of. They were "Charismatic".

So we can go back through history thousands of years and Christ coming was preached taught and also Him coming at the end of the tribulation. Yet that was not taught preached at the start from all I have searched seen. I don't get stuck on pre mid post. He is coming.. and lol sorry not letting some man that has no more information then I do.. and has never heard from GOD nor any man for that matter when He is coming.. or pre mid post are wrong. So.. hmm I better watch be ready now. To know we were never promised tomorrow.. I like thinking about Him 24/7. But this video for me does not "prove" post is wrong nor pre is right. Each one has to search and.. be nice as in "this is what I believe and why" not "your wrong .. I am right".
 
In the video, Lee Brainard says he's never formally studied Greek. He says he taught himself Greek using a Greek New Testament, a Geek lexicon and a book on Greek grammar. He said he translated documents that hadn't been translated into English; these form the basis of his claims. I'm not sure how much I want to trust my rapture beliefs to an amateur translator who has some unknown Greek manuscripts. I'd be curious to know if anyone else has seen them or if he has them in a safe in his basement.
That's not what is on the table.
What is, is the fact he found new writings of the early fathers,THAT HAD NOT BEEN TRANSLATED Into english.
The vid DEBUNKS the key foundation of postribbers.
Debunking their ancient lie that the pretrib rapture doctrine is something new.

Can you imagine their mightiest gun is a fluke???

For me it is almost a nothing burger Because the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is not based on ancient men's writings.
It is based on the word of God.

The writings of the ancient fathers were loaded with error and so post tribbers have been duped for decades. Thinking they were right, via a few church father ridings.
That is a sobering thought to have based their doctrine on a fluky assumption.
 
In this life.. how others treat me is not the way I am going to treat them. I treat them the way I would like to be treated. So you believe Christ comes after the great tribulation . I disagree I can share why.. but you are looking for Him.. watching for Him.. praise God. It is written and known they watched for Him to come any moment. There was no split at the start. Its like they believed saw, had the fruits of the holy Spirit.. the gifts.. healing, tongues all of it which today is called dead gone and those that still believe have the fruits are made fun of. They were "Charismatic".

So we can go back through history thousands of years and Christ coming was preached taught and also Him coming at the end of the tribulation. Yet that was not taught preached at the start from all I have searched seen. I don't get stuck on pre mid post. He is coming.. and lol sorry not letting some man that has no more information then I do.. and has never heard from GOD nor any man for that matter when He is coming.. or pre mid post are wrong. So.. hmm I better watch be ready now. To know we were never promised tomorrow.. I like thinking about Him 24/7. But this video for me does not "prove" post is wrong nor pre is right. Each one has to search and.. be nice as in "this is what I believe and why" not "your wrong .. I am right".
Hard to tell where you are in your beliefs.
I am not a postribber and neither is the vid.
Towards the end of the vid, it has new discoveries of the church fathers.
And what it debunks is the lie that the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine started with somebody named Darby.
I have known that for many, many years. It was debunked long ago by bill cloud and some others. It totally amazes me that post tribbers have been on the wrong track for decades
 
God is love and loves all people.

But one day He has to end sin on earth.

So He is giving the world 7 years to have their way to go against the truth.

Since the world has 7 years to have their way to go against the truth then the saints will remain on earth because they represent the truth.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

There is only 2 resurrections, 1 of the saints, and 1 of the dead that happens later.

Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

When the resurrection happens the hypocrites and the world will not be able to be with God.

That means there is no tribulations saints.

That means the pre-trib does not happen because the beast makes war against the saints.

Which if it was pre-trib there would be no saints on earth.

Also the tribulation is not for the 7 years period but for the last three and one half years.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Also the tribulation is for the saints because the world goes against the truth.

And the days are shortened for the elect so the saints are on earth.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The saints will not be gathered unto Christ the resurrection until there is a falling away first.

And the man of sin claims to be God which happens in the middle of the 7 years period.

For the first three and one half years salvation is still available to the world.

So the saints will remain on earth to represent the truth.

And there is only 1 resurrection and all the saints will go up together.

When the world takes the mark of the beast then salvation is no longer available to the world.

And then the saints can be resurrected.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise,

and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws:

and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven,

and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half;

and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

But the beast makes war against the saints and overcomes them and destroys the mighty and holy people physically.

And they are given in to his hands for the last three and one half years.

And when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people all things will be finished.

Which then comes the end for all things are finished when the Son delivers up the kingdom to God.

And then He will put down all power, rule, and authority.

Which means the heathen do not continue but they are put down.

But if the resurrection happens before the 7 years period or in the middle the heathen continue which they would not.

That is why the resurrection cannot happen before the 7 years period or in the middle because the heathen continue.

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Also the wrath of God is not in the 7 years period because salvation is still available to the world during the first half.

So it is the same as now and grace is still in operation.

And the beast has power from God to rule the world.

So the wrath of God would not be there.

For if God is allowing the beast to have his way and power to rule why would God go against him and his kingdom for the last half.

The antichrist will have a belief system that exalts people based on the occult and there is no personal God.

Which he will try to convince the world that their religions are compatible all interpreted by his belief system.

Which will also pull in atheists.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron.

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

The time will come that people will not want to hear the fundamentals of the Bible that were taught for years.

But want to hear the Bible according to their own lusts.

2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

When the resurrection does not happen before the 7 years period it will overthrow the faith of some.

And they will follow the antichrist's belief system.
You just proved by leaving out the pretrib rapture verses, you can make the bible line up with your theory.
 
At around 18:00 he makes the mistake of saying there are 2 salvation programs: individual and national.


This is the straw man pre-tribbers erect: literal vs allegorical. Read carefully again what I wrote. I reject that framing
So inspite of the facts, your position is that the postrib rapture adherents , are correct that pretrib rapture doctrine began with Darby?

Pretrib rapture is easy to defend.
In fact every postribber challenges that doctrine via omitting the pretrib rapture verses.
 
I will listen through this with an open mind, but having read the ECFs extensively, everything I read was post-trib.

JUSTIN MARTYR: The man of apostasy [Antichrist]...shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians. (Trypho cx)

THE PASTOR OF HERMAS: 40-140 A.D. ’Happy ye who endure the great tribulation that is coming. (Vision Second) Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire, will be purified by means of it....Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints. This then is the type of the great tribulation that is yet to come.’ (Vision Fourth)

BARNABAS: The final stumbling block approaches, concerning which it is written, as Enoch says, ’For this end the Lord has cut short the times and the days, that His Beloved may hasten; and He will come to the inheritance’ And the prophet also speaks thus: ’Ten kingdoms shall reign upon the earth, and a little king shall rise up after them, who shall subdue under one three of the kings...Take heed, lest resting at our ease, as those who are the called, we should fall asleep in our sins, and the wicked prince, acquiring power over us, should thrust us away from the kingdom of the Lord. (Epistle of Barnabas, ch. iv)

IRENAEUS: 140-200 A.D. ’And they [the ten kings]...shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. (Against Heresies 5.26.1) But [John] indicates the number of the name [Antichrist, 666] now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is.’ (Against Heresies 5.30.4)

HIPPOLYTUS: 160-240 A.D. Now concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary [he has been speaking of the Antichrist and the Antichrist’s persecution of the saints and continues n the same vein]....That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days [the last half of Daniel’s seventieth week] during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church. (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, pp. 60,61)

TERTULLIAN: 150-220 A.D. ’That the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God....Since, then, the Scriptures both indicate the stages of the last times, and concentrate the harvestof the Christian hope in the very end of the world.’ (On the Resurrection of the Flesh, xxv; cf. Scorpiace, xii)

I have seen people quote the Didache to prove the pre-trib rapture because it says things like: "Watch for your life’s sake,. Let not your lamps be quenched, not your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for you know not the hour in which the Lord cometh.’ "
But in the mind of an ancient reader, this does not mean that the rapture may happen at any moment, simply reading the entire chapter clears up that much, here is the continuation:

But often shall ye come together, seeking the things which are befitting your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time. For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied...and then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning.... And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first, the sign of an outspreading in heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the third, the resurrection of the dead; yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him. Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven. (The Teachings of the Twelve Apostles, chapter XVI

The order is so clear, first tribulation and antichrist, then appear the signs in heaven, then the trumpet sounds, and there is a resurrection of the just dead. That is the didache, you don't have to agree with it, it is not Scripture, but you have to admit, that is decisively post-tribulation.

Yet this is 2025 and YouTube videos overrule what they wrote they believed?
 
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So inspite of the facts, your position is that the postrib rapture adherents , are correct that pretrib rapture doctrine began with Darby?

A very few throughout history may have had what might appear to be pre-trib ideas, but modern dispensationalism did originate with Darby and was popularized by Scofield. Ephrem of Syria's writings are not credible for an early pre-trib view because he did not have the book of Revelation that makes a distinction between tribulation and wrath, so when he wrote about a pre-trib resurrection he could have meant a pre-wrath resurrection.
 
That's not what is on the table.
What is, is the fact he found new writings of the early fathers,THAT HAD NOT BEEN TRANSLATED Into english.
The vid DEBUNKS the key foundation of postribbers.
Debunking their ancient lie that the pretrib rapture doctrine is something new.

Can you imagine their mightiest gun is a fluke???

For me it is almost a nothing burger Because the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is not based on ancient men's writings.
It is based on the word of God.

The writings of the ancient fathers were loaded with error and so post tribbers have been duped for decades. Thinking they were right, via a few church father ridings.
That is a sobering thought to have based their doctrine on a fluky assumption.

Well, it's on the table for me. Brainard's not a scholar, he's an armchair pre-tribber. I've been looking into him and some of his claims; not everything is as simple as he tries to make it. This isn't an ad hominem attack, it's just that when you go making claims about the ECFs, you better know what you're talking about.
 
Well, it's on the table for me. Brainard's not a scholar, he's an armchair pre-tribber. I've been looking into him and some of his claims; not everything is as simple as he tries to make it. This isn't an ad hominem attack, it's just that when you go making claims about the ECFs, you better know what you're talking about.

You have no unique corner on truth.
I have seen many a "phd" that was dumb as dirt.
Conversely,
Benjamin Franklin (Statesman/Inventor): Left formal schooling at 10, became a printer, writer, inventor, and Founding Father through relentless reading and self-study.
Maybe Ben Franklin was a joke also?

You, being "labele centered", will find out that "experts", will make a fool out of you.
I am doing research.
You are into attacking the messenger.

As i see it , facts and truth are your enemy.

You only accept "truth" when it is from polished misinformed "experts".

If you are still defending a lie that Darby originated the pretrib rapture then , for sure truth Is your enemy.
You are actually positioning yourself to receive error as long as "experts" are your source.

Dr Foucci followers, were following "experts" and "science".
What could go wrong ?????
 
I'm questioning his credentials, yes.
Kent Hovind, a powerful voice for creation science and top creation young earth Christian debate warrior has no degree in science. He taught science at pcc college, in florida.

Atheists attack his work, due to his lack of education and being self taught.
( attack the messenger, when the facts can not be honestly refuted)
Kinda like your methods.

Instead of substance, you act like you have an exclusive handle on knowledge, and your lack of desire to learn reveals the rabbit trail of attacking the messenger.

You could care less about knowledge.
But with the properly groomed misguided teachers you will drink every word from their erroneous well.?
 
I'm questioning his credentials, yes.
Dr faucci has incredible credentials.
Every word he speaks, you must follow huh?
It does not surprise me, your lack of discernment.

The Pharisees used your methods against the disciples.

See that's the thing. You want labels and "proper" packaging.( actually you want a doctrine protected)
Bible students/ disciples of Christ, recognize truth can come from a donkey.

Paul said all your polishing and labels.....he counted as dung.
 
I'm questioning his credentials, yes.
From google:
"Michael Faraday was born dirt poor and had no formal education at all. But when he started working for a bookbinder, he read up on a lot of science from the books he bound. He even offered to become an assistant to various scientists, but they all refused.

Then he took the matter into his own hands and discovered electromagnetism, invented the bunsen burner, discovered benzene, and made the first electric motor and generator, becoming one of the most important scientists of all time."

......he was not up to your standards, but it didn't matter.
It made me think of all the great men you would have canceled out if you could.

Those self taught men are forever damaging the ignorance of the skeptics.
 
The early Church Fathers largely believed in a "rapture" (a catching up of saints to meet Christ), but it was generally understood as a post-tribulation event, occurring at the Second Coming alongside resurrection and judgment, not a secret pre-tribulation event as taught in modern dispensationalism. They saw the believers' gathering as linked to the final coming of Christ after significant tribulation and the Antichrist's rise, a view differing from the modern concept of a secret, separate rapture before a seven-year tribulation period.

Key Points on Early Church Views:
No Pre-Trib Rapture: The distinct pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is a 19th-century development by John Nelson Darby and not found in early writings.

One Event:
The fathers saw the resurrection, gathering (rapture), and Christ's visible return as one combined, climactic event at the end of the age.

Post-Tribulation Timing:
They expected the gathering to happen after or at the end of the tribulation, often with the defeat of the Antichrist.

Imminence:
While post-trib, they still held a strong belief in the imminence of Christ's return, encouraging preparedness.

Key Figures:
Writers like Iraneaus, Rufinus, Victorinus, Tyconius, and Cyprian held views consistent with a post-tribulation gathering or a tribulation period before Christ's return.

In essence, the early church anticipated a glorious, visible gathering and resurrection at Christ's return, which concluded the tribulation, differing from the modern, distinct, secret pre-tribulation rapture.
 
Well as my pastor once said, you can be pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib.

He said he was pan-trib. It's all going to pan out in the end so why worry about it.
 
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