WHAT????? CHURCH FATHERS WERE PRETRIB ???

[Psalm1]

In the last part of the vid,we see a ton of reference to ancient pre trib rapture teaching.

 

[Gideon300]

In the last part of the vid,we see a ton of reference to ancient pre trib rapture teaching.

I'm pre-trib because I'm convinced that is what the Bible teaches. I am not sure why people want to rely on what the "church fathers" have to say. They were no more likely to be doctrinally sound than modern teachers. Augustine promoted infant baptism, or baby sprinkling as I call it. He also promoted purgatory.

 

[ResidentAlien]

I listened to the whole video. His beliefs about the rapture are pretty typically pre-trib. When he gets to the early "fathers" (starts at 35:46), he does bring some quotes about the pre-trib rapture. My main problem with his approach though is this: He uses early examples as way to refute the argument that the pre-trib belief only started with Margaret MacDonald and Charles Nelson Darby; but he doesn't address any of the criticisms of the writings of the early "fathers." I wish the interviewer would've given him an opportunity to do that.

As an aside, Ephraem the Syrian wrote one thing that I hadn't thought about before; i.e., the Antichrist will order the temple to be rebuilt so he can occupy it. It won't be rebuilt by the Jews before he comes on the scene.

 

[Slimsumo]

In the last part of the vid,we see a ton of reference to ancient pre trib rapture teaching.

This video is full of deception. No one was pre-trib. Go read the church fathers for yourself, didache says we will face the antichrist, as does Irenaeus, etc.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

At around 10 minutes he makes the mistake of saying the tribulation is God's wrath. It is not. It is man's persecution of his people. God's wrath is poured out on the wicked after the tribulation

At around 11 minutes he wrongly interprets the 4th seal as meaning 1/4 of the earth's population will be killed. That's not what it says. It says authority will be given to kill over 1/4 of the land, ie, an area. Whether that means a particular land, or the whole earth is debatable.

And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And authority was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. Revelation 6:7-8​

 

[timf]

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Two reasons to consider that this is God's wrath is that the body of Christ is not appointed to it and that it is related to Jesus opening the scroll and breaking the seals in Revelation chapter five.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Two reasons to consider that this is God's wrath is that the body of Christ is not appointed to it and that it is related to Jesus opening the scroll and breaking the seals in Revelation chapter five.

People make the mistake of thinking the seals are opened in the end time. Jesus opened all 7 of them nearly 2000 years ago. They reveal God's plan for the establishment of Christ's kingdom and the creation of the new heavens and earth.

The 7 trumpets (tribulation) and 7 bowls of wrath (God's wrath) occur at the end of the world and are part of the events revealed in opening of the 6th seal.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

At around 14:00 the guy makes the common mistake of framing prophecy interpretation as either literal or allegorical, which to him means either physical/natural or figurative.

However, literal doesn't mean what is natural or physical; it means what is actual and true. The literal meaning can be either physical or spiritual depending on the author's intent.

Applying a natural interpretation to a prophecy when its actual (literal) meaning is spiritual produces error that creates the kind of division, fragmentation and gospel confusion that we see in dispenstionalism

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

He also gets it wrong IMO when he says we must apply a literal (by which he means natural) interpretation first, and if that doesn't work then apply a figurative interpretation. For example, Christ is the lamb of God. Since he's not a lamb, it must mean a figurative lamb.

I think that's backwards. Since all things are fulfilled in Christ, we should look for a spiritual fulfillment first, and if that can't be found, then apply a natural interpretation. For example, Christ is the lamb of God. Since Christ fulfilled all OT shadows, including sacrificial lambs, the literal meaning must be the figurative meaning because the physical shadow has been fulfilled and no longer means anything.

 

[Psalm1]

Same here.
However postribbers have been duped to spread lies that the pretrib doctrine originated in darby.

 

[Psalm1]

This video is full of deception. No one was pre-trib. Go read the church fathers for yourself, didache says we will face the antichrist, as does Irenaeus, etc.

Lol.
You never watched it.
The guy found writings that had not been translated into English.
Your doctrine lies about the church fathers and the origin of the pretrib doctrine.
The vid debunks postribbers claim of pretrib rapture doctrine origin.

Solidly debunked.

 

[Psalm1]

He also gets it wrong IMO when he says we must apply a literal (by which he means natural) interpretation first, and if that doesn't work then apply a figurative interpretation. For example, Christ is the lamb of God. Since he's not a lamb, it must mean a figurative lamb.

I think that's backwards. Since all things are fulfilled in Christ, we should look for a spiritual fulfillment first, and if that can't be found, then apply a natural interpretation. For example, Christ is the lamb of God. Since Christ fulfilled all OT shadows, including sacrificial lambs, the literal meaning must be the figurative meaning because the physical shadow has been fulfilled and no longer means anything.

If you think allagorizing everything is the best start, you are guaranteed error.
Part of the vast error in eschatology is people with false presumed doctrine alagorizing verses that debunk their doctrine.
Allegory is no bogey man.
Allegory to make stuff fit is a circus.

Take a look at the 144,000 debate.
It is a circus what they do.
They just can not be who and what the biblecsays they are.
I find that a sick joke against God's word.

 

[Psalm1]

At around 14:00 the guy makes the common mistake of framing prophecy interpretation as either literal or allegorical, which to him means either physical/natural or figurative.

However, literal doesn't mean what is natural or physical; it means what is actual and true. The literal meaning can be either physical or spiritual depending on the author's intent.

Applying a natural interpretation to a prophecy when its actual (literal) meaning is spiritual produces error that creates the kind of division, fragmentation and gospel confusion that we see in dispenstionalism

The dialogue is profound in the vid.
What you are doing is shooting the messenger.
Maybe because that is all you can nit pick???
Take any and all truth off the table? ?

But but.....he wears those weird glasses.

Your doctrine is that fragile?

 

[Psalm1]

I listened to the whole video. His beliefs about the rapture are pretty typically pre-trib. When he gets to the early "fathers" (starts at 35:46), he does bring some quotes about the pre-trib rapture. My main problem with his approach though is this: He uses early examples as way to refute the argument that the pre-trib belief only started with Margaret MacDonald and Charles Nelson Darby; but he doesn't address any of the criticisms of the writings of the early "fathers." I wish the interviewer would've given him an opportunity to do that.

As an aside, Ephraem the Syrian wrote one thing that I hadn't thought about before; i.e., the Antichrist will order the temple to be rebuilt so he can occupy it. It won't be rebuilt by the Jews before he comes on the scene.

Lol.

The lies that Darby started the pretrib rapture doctrine have been debunked for years.
This guy found EVEN MORE WRITINGS.
THAT is his discussion.
Bringing in other components outside that line of thought is just you being obtuse.

 

[Komentaja]

I will listen through this with an open mind, but having read the ECFs extensively, everything I read was post-trib.

JUSTIN MARTYR: The man of apostasy [Antichrist]...shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians. (Trypho cx)

THE PASTOR OF HERMAS: 40-140 A.D. ’Happy ye who endure the great tribulation that is coming. (Vision Second) Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire, will be purified by means of it....Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints. This then is the type of the great tribulation that is yet to come.’ (Vision Fourth)

BARNABAS: The final stumbling block approaches, concerning which it is written, as Enoch says, ’For this end the Lord has cut short the times and the days, that His Beloved may hasten; and He will come to the inheritance’ And the prophet also speaks thus: ’Ten kingdoms shall reign upon the earth, and a little king shall rise up after them, who shall subdue under one three of the kings...Take heed, lest resting at our ease, as those who are the called, we should fall asleep in our sins, and the wicked prince, acquiring power over us, should thrust us away from the kingdom of the Lord. (Epistle of Barnabas, ch. iv)

IRENAEUS: 140-200 A.D. ’And they [the ten kings]...shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. (Against Heresies 5.26.1) But [John] indicates the number of the name [Antichrist, 666] now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is.’ (Against Heresies 5.30.4)

HIPPOLYTUS: 160-240 A.D. Now concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary [he has been speaking of the Antichrist and the Antichrist’s persecution of the saints and continues n the same vein]....That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days [the last half of Daniel’s seventieth week] during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church. (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, pp. 60,61)

TERTULLIAN: 150-220 A.D. ’That the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God....Since, then, the Scriptures both indicate the stages of the last times, and concentrate the harvestof the Christian hope in the very end of the world.’ (On the Resurrection of the Flesh, xxv; cf. Scorpiace, xii)

I have seen people quote the Didache to prove the pre-trib rapture because it says things like: "Watch for your life’s sake,. Let not your lamps be quenched, not your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for you know not the hour in which the Lord cometh.’ "
But in the mind of an ancient reader, this does not mean that the rapture may happen at any moment, simply reading the entire chapter clears up that much, here is the continuation:

’But often shall ye come together, seeking the things which are befitting your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time. For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied...and then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning.... And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first, the sign of an outspreading in heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the third, the resurrection of the dead; yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him. Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven. (The Teachings of the Twelve Apostles, chapter XVI

The order is so clear, first tribulation and antichrist, then appear the signs in heaven, then the trumpet sounds, and there is a resurrection of the just dead. That is the didache, you don't have to agree with it, it is not Scripture, but you have to admit, that is decisively post-tribulation.

 

[Psalm1]

I know.
Truth is a bitter pill for postribbers.

This video is a keeper.

That is the thing. The bible hounds eventually pile up such a mountain of truth, the doctrine centered people can not honestly respond.

 

[Psalm1]

I will listen through this with an open mind, but having read the ECFs extensively, everything I read was post-trib.

JUSTIN MARTYR: The man of apostasy [Antichrist]...shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians. (Trypho cx)

THE PASTOR OF HERMAS: 40-140 A.D. ’Happy ye who endure the great tribulation that is coming. (Vision Second) Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire, will be purified by means of it....Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints. This then is the type of the great tribulation that is yet to come.’ (Vision Fourth)

BARNABAS: The final stumbling block approaches, concerning which it is written, as Enoch says, ’For this end the Lord has cut short the times and the days, that His Beloved may hasten; and He will come to the inheritance’ And the prophet also speaks thus: ’Ten kingdoms shall reign upon the earth, and a little king shall rise up after them, who shall subdue under one three of the kings...Take heed, lest resting at our ease, as those who are the called, we should fall asleep in our sins, and the wicked prince, acquiring power over us, should thrust us away from the kingdom of the Lord. (Epistle of Barnabas, ch. iv)

IRENAEUS: 140-200 A.D. ’And they [the ten kings]...shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. (Against Heresies 5.26.1) But [John] indicates the number of the name [Antichrist, 666] now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is.’ (Against Heresies 5.30.4)

HIPPOLYTUS: 160-240 A.D. Now concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary [he has been speaking of the Antichrist and the Antichrist’s persecution of the saints and continues n the same vein]....That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days [the last half of Daniel’s seventieth week] during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church. (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, pp. 60,61)

TERTULLIAN: 150-220 A.D. ’That the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God....Since, then, the Scriptures both indicate the stages of the last times, and concentrate the harvestof the Christian hope in the very end of the world.’ (On the Resurrection of the Flesh, xxv; cf. Scorpiace, xii)

I have seen people quote the Didache to prove the pre-trib rapture because it says things like: "Watch for your life’s sake,. Let not your lamps be quenched, not your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for you know not the our in which the Lord cometh.’ "
But in the mind of an ancient reader, this does not mean that the rapture may happen at any moment, simply reading the entire chapter clears up that much, here is the continuation:

’But often shall ye come together, seeking the things which are befitting your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time. For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied...and then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning.... And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first, the sign of an outspreading in heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the third, the resurrection of the dead; yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him. Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven. (The Teachings of the Twelve Apostles, chapter XVI

The order is so clear, first tribulation and antichrist, then appear the signs in heaven, then the trumpet sounds, and there is a resurrection of the just dead. That is the didache, you don't have to agree with it, it is not Scripture, but you have to admit, that is decisively post-tribulation.

No.
You are 100% wrong.
Jesus taught a pretrib rapture.
I do not go by your methods
Postribs doctrine CENTERS ON WHAT MEN OF OLD BELIEVED.
Your doctrine has that basis.
I ONLY go by the bible, no matter what your dead men say or believed.

But the vid debunks the lie that Darby started the pretrib rapture doctrine.

 

[Komentaja]

Same here.
However postribbers have been duped to spread lies that the pretrib doctrine originated in darby.

I will agree with this. It definitely was not invented by Darby. I can find quotes from the Puritans that are pre-trib. The shepherd of Hermas appears to be that in the 300s.

So clearly not invented by Darby. People credit him with it cause he popularized it in the anglo-saxon world along with the Scofield reference Bible. Once that took over the Bible colleges, it was pre-trib all the way.

 

[Komentaja]

No.
You are 100% wrong.
Jesus taught a pretrib rapture.
I do not go by your methods
Postribs doctrine CENTERS ON WHAT MEN OF OLD BELIEVED.
Your doctrine has that basis.
I ONLY go by the bible, no matter what your dead men say or believed.

But the vid debunks the lie that Darby started the pretrib rapture doctrine.

Well, did you read my quotes or not? I made no claim as to what the Bible teaches, I quoted you the early Church writings. That is all I did. You can call them wrong, but you can't say they were not post-tribbers. We don't go by the ECFs, we go by the Scriptures. IF you believe the Bible teaches pre-trib rapture you should stick with that.

I agree, it is not true that Darby invented it.

 

[Psalm1]

Postribbers are not going to change their views over that video.

What the video does is EXPOSE THE LIES against the origin of the pretrib rapture doctrine.

Postribbers have heavily invested in church fathers beliefs.
A very shaky ground that conflicts with scripture.