Loss of salvation???
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How about we clarife,
The comments you CLAIM I said.
1st, He's not a ghost, by the way. I DID NOT.
2nd, We are saved by grace, through faith. I DID.
3rd, I don't agree with the necessity to "stay" saved. I DID NOT.
4th, I don't know what part of eternal life is not eternal. I DID NOT.
5th, They may even be disqualified from entering the Kingdom of God. That does not mean going to hell. It means missing out on the wonderful rewards that God has for those who are fruitful in this life. I DID NOT.
6th, First thing, I only share HIS word. I DID.
7th, That is why Paul said he dies daily!! I DID.
I'm waiting for you to explain yourself.
That's your dichotomy right there. There's no way to justify an alleged enable-ment of grace. You simply refuse to accept Paul's word on this, and that's your problem:
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith [not endurance]; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
What part of that are you not understanding? How does endurance have any relation to salvation? It's clearly stated, through inspiration, that it's a GIFT bestowed NOT OF OURSELVES, but you are saying that it IS of ourselves.
2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Paul was inspired to use words that describe a financial concept, in this case being EARNEST. Given that we are SEALED and given an EARNEST, which is a guarantee of Holy Spirit whom the Lord is NOT going to forfeit over to us by doing what you seem to believe that He would ever do. Your beliefs make no sense in relation to the body of Christ who ALONE were told that we are saved by grace not of ourselves lest any man should boast. Are you boasting about your efforts of endurance? Neither Jesus nor the twelve preached "saved by grace through faith, and that not of yourselves." Dare we put together all that they had to say on the subject when they spoke to Israel BEFORE the coming down of that middle wall of partition, and there is indeed difference. That wall existed for a reason with Israel on one side and Gentiles on the other, and you seem to want to ignore that.
Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
The context of Romans 10 says nothing about endurance, nor any other verse throughout Paul's epistles. Yes I follow Paul, who wrote what was inspired, just as what James wrote was inspired for Israel. Blurring the lines of DIVISION within all of truth, and you end up with the gobbledygook of modern Evangelicalism's confusing orchestral members playing each his own score to the confusing beat of the director, it's chaos. Look at all the denominations out there that differ in doctrine, some of which are CORE doctrines of the faith.
BELIEVED [in Ephesians 1 above]. Not worked, not strived, not sweated, not ordinances, not commandments, not tithing, not attending churchianity, not abstaining, but FAITH...BELIEVING. Why is that so difficult for you?
We're talking about salvation here, not rewards. So long as those under the Kingdom Gospel ENDURED, then they SHALL [future tense] be saved. We are not anything but saved RIGHT NOW, not at some point in the future based upon our endurance. Taking that requirement laid upon others under another dispensation and trying to lay it upon the body of Christ, that's pure subjectivism.
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
The context of this verse says nothing about a requirement for endurance, neither is the a hint at Holy Spirit being withdrawn on the basis of sin. If that were the case, then you too right now would not be saved until some point in the future, striving always to try and be good enough.
How good is good enough? You don't even know where that line rests. You don't know where you would be right now in relation to that line [if it even existed, which it doesn't] because you can't define it. You're smug labeling of what I've presented, never once offering a rebuttal to my highlights of the key words, phraseology and contexts, it all goes to show how puny your stance really is in all this. Accusing me of upholding "dichotomy," and yet you never once addressing the highlights that I made within their respective, INSPIRED verses in their contexts, none of which point to the side of this where you choose to sit.
Come on, stop claiming I've refused to address your question. Here it is again. Don't you have anything better to do than to falsely accuse another through your meaningless little quips that prove nothing?
Endurance gets for us REWARDS, not salvation. How many pounds do you have to lift to show faith? What does it weigh? What finger being moved makes faith a reality for you? If faith is on the basis of some effort OF OURSELVES or BOASTING, then what's that ACTION one must perform apart from faith within the mind and heart? James never talked to Israel about their ability to boast about their faith proven by their actions, but we were not nor are under the TRUE teachings of James to Israel when the Kingdom Gospel was still in force.
So, rather than to deflect away into other questions about what I've just said here in these last couple of paragraphs, stick to the ONE thing you keep harping falsely about in relation to my allegedly having not addressed. Enough about your false claims, and let's deal head-on with the item about endurance and how it allegedly ties in with salvation in relation to us today, which it doesn't.
MM
And exactly what dichotomy would that be? What are the two opposing categories you claim I’m proposing?
If the Kingdom Gospel of Jesus and the twelve were still a reality for us today, why aren't the supporters of that mass-confusion intermixing of that gospel with the Gospel of Grace able to continue in this:
Mark 16:17-18 — And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
The hospitals would not at all be the financial kingdom monstrosities they are today, driving up healthcare costs with their outrageous pricing for even a band-aid and its application. The body of Christ would be THE most powerful force on this earth with that gospel having taken dominance through such demonstrations of power.
I know, I know. Someone is bound to thrown into this the doctrine of cessationism. It's an allegedly easy fix to the difficulties they find themselves surrounded by dare they defend their beliefs without some way out of divesting themselves of this evidence for their beliefs being true and consistent with scripture.
Another may bring up Paul having worked miracles, even raising a dead man...yes, but that diminished, with Paul getting to the point of diminishment for working miracles. This is a common theme in Bible Cemeteries, the phenomenon of diminished working of miracles even among the apostles.
My having at one time been married to a woman raised in Charismaticism, her family and associates did all manner of jigs, wiggles, grunts, women preachers of doctrines, wails, hollaring...chaos of jibberish speaking, none of which demonstrated any power apart from mass hypnotism, contrivances and gyrations allegedly done on the basis of Holy Spirit being the Manipulator.
None of them drank deadly things, were bitten by venomous reptiles, healed the sick en mass as did those who were under the Kingdom Gospel and were promised that power under that Kingdom Gospel by no other than Christ Jesus Himself.
Come on, all followers of the Kingdom Gospel, please show to us the reality of the requirements originating from and promised through the Kingdom Gospel WITHOUT copping out through the cessationist creed and doctrine. Show it to us; that Jesus' words in Mark 16:17-18 are still for us today! Picking and choosing isn't an answer. It's either all or none as to what's applicable to us today.
Paul neither promised nor commanded anything of the kind to the body of Christ under his ministry, all the way up to our day today and beyond.
MM
Mark 16:17-18 — And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
The hospitals would not at all be the financial kingdom monstrosities they are today, driving up healthcare costs with their outrageous pricing for even a band-aid and its application. The body of Christ would be THE most powerful force on this earth with that gospel having taken dominance through such demonstrations of power.
I know, I know. Someone is bound to thrown into this the doctrine of cessationism. It's an allegedly easy fix to the difficulties they find themselves surrounded by dare they defend their beliefs without some way out of divesting themselves of this evidence for their beliefs being true and consistent with scripture.
Another may bring up Paul having worked miracles, even raising a dead man...yes, but that diminished, with Paul getting to the point of diminishment for working miracles. This is a common theme in Bible Cemeteries, the phenomenon of diminished working of miracles even among the apostles.
My having at one time been married to a woman raised in Charismaticism, her family and associates did all manner of jigs, wiggles, grunts, women preachers of doctrines, wails, hollaring...chaos of jibberish speaking, none of which demonstrated any power apart from mass hypnotism, contrivances and gyrations allegedly done on the basis of Holy Spirit being the Manipulator.
None of them drank deadly things, were bitten by venomous reptiles, healed the sick en mass as did those who were under the Kingdom Gospel and were promised that power under that Kingdom Gospel by no other than Christ Jesus Himself.
Come on, all followers of the Kingdom Gospel, please show to us the reality of the requirements originating from and promised through the Kingdom Gospel WITHOUT copping out through the cessationist creed and doctrine. Show it to us; that Jesus' words in Mark 16:17-18 are still for us today! Picking and choosing isn't an answer. It's either all or none as to what's applicable to us today.
Paul neither promised nor commanded anything of the kind to the body of Christ under his ministry, all the way up to our day today and beyond.
MM
Eph2:8 identifies faith, but does not define or exhaust what biblical faith is. You're simply assuming exclusion. Endurance is part of grace-enabled faith, and you’ve still not addressed your selective handling of Scriptures re: endurance in obedient faith.
You're just as much the master of deflection that you accuse me. How pathetic indeed. I answered you, asked questions, and you continue in your evasive deflections rather than to address ALL that I had written in answer to your demand.
MM
Then present something of substance that proves your case that actually does apply to us today. Enough chirping, present something of substance rather than mere claims. SHOW it to us as I have done for you.
MM
The comments in the posts are a mix of @Gideon300 and mine. The whole
problem started when Gideon replied to @Caveman post 4667. Gideon
left out the beginning quote symbol so the replies include comments
from different people.
Because of this error your first 5 comments in post 4698 are about
what Gideon300 said in post 4694, not me. What I said is in BOLD below.
@Gideon300 comment (4694)
No one confesses Lord Jesus except by the Holy Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:3) He's not a ghost, by the way. We are saved by grace, through faith. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. I believed Jesus rose from the dead before I was saved. It meant as much to me as knowing that Nero was a Roman emperor.
I gave the abridged version of the gentlemen who uses Romans 10:9. He explains why it is necessary for Jesus to die in the first place. He sets aside an hour. His day job is as professor of Chemistry and Nanotechnology.
"Confess" does not mean an intellectual assent to something. "Confess" means to testify to something you know to be true. In Australia at least, "confess" usually means something negative. Confess to a crime, for example. But that is only partially correct.
I don't agree with the necessity to "stay" saved. I don't know what part of eternal life is not eternal. I don't know how someone can be born again one moment and not the next. What is not certain is placement in God's kingdom. Some embrace the cross daily, consecrate themselves fully to the Lordship of Jesus and seek His kingdom as their number one priority. Others are not so motivated. They are not willing to pay the price. They may even be disqualified from entering the Kingdom of God. That does not mean going to hell. It means missing out on the wonderful rewards that God has for those who are fruitful in this life.
We get one life on earth that sets us up for eternity. Wisdom says, "Let's make the most of it".
MY COMMENT:
First thing, I only share HIS word.
JESUS speaking in Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
HE SAYS HOLY GHOST, not me.
"We are saved by grace, through faith. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ."
AMEN, are you saying we don't need to do anything??
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
As you can see IT SAYS CONFESS, not my words or opinion.
Second he is talking to the church and telling them to get out and preach, look later in that chapter.
Romans 10,
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
It is sad if you think we can't lose our salvation, that means you are construable just where you are you will NEVER grow.
Do you think that if you go back to that bar stool or stealing or watching porn or just looking at a women in lust that JESUS IS WITH YOU??? HE'S GOON DUDE!!!!
That is why Paul said he dies daily!!
JESUS said in Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
What about the story of the prodigal son in Luke 15?
I'm sorry you don't like HIS word, HELL??? ETERNITY???
Hell will be torment.
Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
Matthew 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Hell is everlasting fire.
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Revelation 20:7,
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
All HIS WORD.
You are right we get one chance, the best way to make the most of it is being REBORN.
So tell me, WHAT DO WE HAVE TO DO TO BE REBORN?
Just believe or just read?
It sure does, please check this out sorry for any confusion.
The comments in the posts are a mix of @Gideon300 and mine. The whole
problem started when Gideon replied to @Caveman post 4667. Gideon
left out the beginning quote symbol so the replies include comments
from different people.
Because of this error your first 5 comments in post 4698 are about
what Gideon300 said in post 4694, not me. What I said is in BOLD below.
@Gideon300 comment (4694)
No one confesses Lord Jesus except by the Holy Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:3) He's not a ghost, by the way. We are saved by grace, through faith. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. I believed Jesus rose from the dead before I was saved. It meant as much to me as knowing that Nero was a Roman emperor.
I gave the abridged version of the gentlemen who uses Romans 10:9. He explains why it is necessary for Jesus to die in the first place. He sets aside an hour. His day job is as professor of Chemistry and Nanotechnology.
"Confess" does not mean an intellectual assent to something. "Confess" means to testify to something you know to be true. In Australia at least, "confess" usually means something negative. Confess to a crime, for example. But that is only partially correct.
I don't agree with the necessity to "stay" saved. I don't know what part of eternal life is not eternal. I don't know how someone can be born again one moment and not the next. What is not certain is placement in God's kingdom. Some embrace the cross daily, consecrate themselves fully to the Lordship of Jesus and seek His kingdom as their number one priority. Others are not so motivated. They are not willing to pay the price. They may even be disqualified from entering the Kingdom of God. That does not mean going to hell. It means missing out on the wonderful rewards that God has for those who are fruitful in this life.
We get one life on earth that sets us up for eternity. Wisdom says, "Let's make the most of it".
MY COMMENTS:
First thing, I only share HIS word.
JESUS speaking in Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
HE SAYS HOLY GHOST, not me.
"We are saved by grace, through faith. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ."
AMEN, are you saying we don't need to do anything??
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
As you can see IT SAYS CONFESS, not my words or opinion.
Second he is talking to the church and telling them to get out and preach, look later in that chapter.
Romans 10,
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
It is sad if you think we can't lose our salvation, that means you are construable just where you are you will NEVER grow.
Do you think that if you go back to that bar stool or stealing or watching porn or just looking at a women in lust that JESUS IS WITH YOU??? HE'S GOON DUDE!!!!
That is why Paul said he dies daily!!
JESUS said in Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
What about the story of the prodigal son in Luke 15?
I'm sorry you don't like HIS word, HELL??? ETERNITY???
Hell will be torment.
Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
Matthew 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Hell is everlasting fire.
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Revelation 20:7,
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
All HIS WORD.
You are right we get one chance, the best way to make the most of it is being REBORN.
So tell me, WHAT DO WE HAVE TO DO TO BE REBORN?
Just believe or just read?
Please explain, with Scripture specific to the seal/earnest, why it means what you are saying.
Earnest deposits guarantee that the one making the deposit will perform and solidify all terms of a contract. The Spirit seals and guarantees God’s promise, but this does not remove any condition of continuing, obedient faith as our Lord-Christ-King requires of us. Believers can walk in the Spirit or grieve or quench (“resist,” “suppress,” or even “extinguish”) the Spirit, and salvation involves grace-enabled, responsive, cooperative, enduring obedient faith. No matter how many times you push your false dichotomy, we know to Whom the boast belongs.
BTW, your statement re: the Lord forfeiting over to us His Spirit is really out there.