Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Jordon]

Our stubornness usually have to be driven to trust God by the torment of living in the flesh and being unable to conquer it. The person described in Romans 7 was an exemplar of such a life.


I agree that God makes people (to varying degrees) aware of their need for the Savior. Only apostates can become totally insensitive to His drawing

he doesn't just make them aware Jim, his word burns in there heart

 

[Jordon]

He is mindlessly regurgitating Reformed dogma, good sense has nothing whatever to do with the action.

Sense and feeling go together forever if your heart is softened

Given that you have been asked to have feeling for all the times you have consistently have been asked to stop miss representing people's integrity and you haven't only shows you only think you have sense

 

[sawdust]

[Phl 1:29 KJV] 29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

I explained that verse to you. God does not make you believe. We sinners do not deserve grace. The "it given" is the privilege, we are not given belief. God gives us faith, yes, but that is only if we believe.

John 20:31
but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

See that? It is in believing we are given life, not your perverse given salvation (regeneration) to be saved stunt.

 

[sawdust]

False, Grace is salvation related and brings it Titus 2:11

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

So your first mistake is to misrepresent Grace with its soteriological purpose.

Grace is God's working principle. Do you not know this? Salvation is but one thing done by means of grace. Do you deserve the sunshine and the rain? No, it is given on the basis of grace, for the Lord can easily withhold both if He desired.

 

[lrs68]

It says the gospel is hidden to them that are lost.

It says because of the god of this world so Jesus can make sure they find it and why Paul uses IF.

 

[lrs68]

Mathew 6:24 states nobody can serve two masters, and in this world people are serving one or the other,

So let me ask you a question does satan give you a choice to stop serving him ?

I presented what the Verse said and now you running around avoiding that verse. Typical!

 

[Genez]

obviously your in denial,

Why should satan have to give you a choice is no answer at all.

The answer is he doesn't

And still you won't even acknowledge why God has to make you a believe,

45 pigs told me the same thing!

Maybe, it was 47?
Does that count?

 

[Genez]

You confuse your own thoughts and inflations of those thoughts, with something that has value over God making a person a believe is what you do,

I used to think you were pretty smart.

But, now I wonder who else does...

Could I tell if I presented them a pretty picture?

 

[Genez]

No I was equating Satan to giving you no choice at all, which you twisted

I see what you mean.
But, do I know what you mean?

If I do, I do.

 

[sawdust]

It's the same, a lost person doesn't believe the Gospel because it is hidden from them.

It doesn't say that, you have it back to front. It says those who don't believe have the Gospel hid from them. Unbelief preceded the Gospel being hid. It is because of their unbelief the Devil can deceive them into a delusion devoid of the hope of God.

Cameron shared with us he heard the Gospel twice prior to believing it the third time. We have no idea if the Gospel had been presented to these people or how many times before it was hid from them.

The Pharisees are a good example of hearing the truth but rejecting it time and time again until eventually God leaves them to lie in their own bed and hides the truth.

 

[sawdust]

In fact, this is exactly what happens, and what has been said all along...God acts sovereignly to draw people to Himself.

But if they don't believe, He stops drawing. Only those who believe (learn from God) come to Christ.

John 6:45
It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

 

[sawdust]

Doesnt change, them that are lost, the Gospel is hidden and they believe not

Again, back to front. They believe not therefore the Gospel is hidden.

 

[sawdust]

Service and discipleship that requires spiritual life and salvation, so its still election to salvation

God saves those He foreknows then elects them to His purpose. Foreknowledge always precedes election.

Romans 8:29
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

I pray one day you will understand what Election actually is.

 

[Cameron143]

But if they don't believe, He stops drawing. Only those who believe (learn from God) come to Christ.

John 6:45
It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

Who has heard and learned from the Father and haven't come to Christ?

 

[sawdust]

Who has heard and learned from the Father haven't come to Christ?

What??

 

[Jordon]

I presented what the Verse said and now you running around avoiding that verse. Typical!

no answer again eh, why am I not surprised

 

[Cameron143]

What??

Who has heard and learned from the Father and haven't come to Jesus?

 

[Genez]

Who has heard and learned from the Father and haven't come to Christ?

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and ​

wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may ​

be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For ​

since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine ​

nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that ​

people are without excuse.​

​

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to ​

him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. ​

Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the ​

immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and ​

animals and reptiles.​

​

Romans 1:18-23​

​

Why were they without excuse?

That passage tells us why.


......

 

[sawdust]

Who has heard and learned from the Father and haven't come to Christ?

What??

Wait, I think I get it. Suddenly the "all" actually becomes all?

Only those who believe learn from the Father, they learn He exists, they learn He is good, they learn He is merciful and when they see Christ (hear the Gospel) they recognise the Father and come.

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

 

[Cameron143]

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and ​

wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may ​

be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For ​

since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine ​

nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that ​

people are without excuse.​

​

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to ​

him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. ​

Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the ​

immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and ​

animals and reptiles.​

​

Romans 1:18-23​

​

Why were they without excuse?

That passage tells us why.


......

They didn't hear God and neither were they taught by Him. They merely understood of the existence of God through nature and conscience.